Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

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Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by grimble_cornet »

I have been imaging in Ha with a SolarMax 40 for a few years now. After a few months of lurking around, and occasionally posting to, Solarchat I have learned a lot. Mark, Alexandra, Swisswalter, Pedro and many others have been generous with their advice and feedback, my images have improved greatly and I have for some time been thinking that I was getting close to what was possible with the gear I have.
Ha Solar Disc 2014 0612 1137 ut.jpg
Ha Sun 2014 0710 1006 ut.jpg
Typical SolarMax40 full disks combining single panel disc + prom shots
Ha Sun 2014 0714 1102 ut.jpg
SolarMax ZWO ASI120MM with proms.jpg
These are some of the better images I have produced with the SolarMax40 plus x2 Barlow


Last week a new member of my astronomy club realised that I was into solar imaging and offered to lend me an old Lunt 60 plus DS unit he had bought 'on impulse' when in the USA a few years back.
I was lucky to get a couple of very good sunny days and managed to capture a few pleasing images. The Lunt is quite different to the SolarMax in terms of capture and processing requirements but I think I made enough progress to catch a glimpse of what is possible with this scope.

I have nothing else to compare my results with so......... tell me what you think. Do they represent a fair picture of what might be expected from this scope in 'reasonable' seeing?
Lunt 60 SS 2 panel disc.jpg
Lunt 60 combination 2014 0722 1437 ut.jpg
Lunt 60 2014 0718 1427 ut.jpg
Lunt 60 SS ZWO ASI120MM Proms inverted 22nd July 2014 1354 ut.jpg
Lunt 60 SS ZWO ASI120MM Proms inverted 22nd July 2014 1354 ut.jpg (135.58 KiB) Viewed 4417 times
Lunt 60 SS 2014 0724 1353 ut coloured inverted proms .jpg
Lunt 60 DS 2014 0724 1438 ut coloured.jpg
Lunt 60 DS 2014 0724 1438 ut inverted coloured.jpg
To my eye, the last couple of images show a hint of the detail which I see in images from those of you with bigger/better scopes and I can hear my financial adviser start to groan :seesaw

So, here is my question...... which upgrade scope makes the most sense for me?

Considerations:
My limited experience with Coronado gear has led to endless frustration with hot-spots, crude helical focusers and fiddly tuning wheels.
My contrast, the Lunt 60 has even illumination, a decent 2 speed crayford focuser and a fiddly, stiff tuning wheel!
By going for a pressure tuner the only 'negative' of the Lunt is solved and, despite the fact that prices for Lunt in Europe are ridiculous when compared to in the US....... Lunt seems to win

If that is so (????), I am left with one major decision and a couple of minor ones..

Major Decision
If I set a realistic budget of about £5000-£6000....... I can afford a Lunt 80 plus internal DS unit OR a Lunt 100 Single stack.
After several weeks of browsing reviews from Stephen's site and others I am even more confused!
I like the idea of probing the details in active regions but also love producing prom animations - one suggests DS, the other larger SS?????
The seeing where I live in the UK is rarely better than 'fair' so will that limit the use of the 100? Mark, you are just down the road so............ what do you find??????

Minor Decisions
1. Blocking filter size. Everyone says 'bigger for imaging' so I was looking at 1800 as I use a DMK41 or ZWOASI120mm camera. Lunt Europe are trying to sell me the 3400 version (partly because there is a 3-4 month wait for the 1800 and they have a 3400 in stock)!
Then I read a thread on here about the 1800 being quite dim compared to the 1200 and Stephen suggesting that 1200 is fine for all Lunt scopes and is the best choice. Can I believe my luck that the low cost option might actually be the right answer?
2. Focuser - is the feathertouch really worth an extra £500.... the price of a decent new camera?
After using the helical horror on the SolarMax40, the Lunt Crayford felt pretty good. However, I have the same Crayford on my Lunt 60 CaK scope and have had a few problems with slippage when using a heavy Baader wedge hanging from an almost vertical scope. Can't imagine being in that situation with the Ha scope but.......... would be pretty annoyed if it was a problem having invested lots of cash in the project.

Lots of these decisions would be easy to make with 'hands-on' experience but I can't find anywhere to see the scopes let alone try them out!

So.........please feel free to chip in with advice

:bow2

Mike


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by solarchat »

after reading all of that there is only one choice in my opinion...

LS100/B1800/Feathertouch


Stephen W. Ramsden
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Founder/Director Charlie Bates Solar Astronomy Project
http://www.solarastronomy.org
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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by grimble_cornet »

Stephen, you are my hero :beanie:

I love simple, clear advice - especially when it agrees with what I was thinking anyway :oops:

My main concern was that the kind of surface detail I was seeing with the Lunt 60 DS wouldn't be there in a SS scope even of much larger aperture. My SolarMax has a narrower band pass than the Lunt 60 which seems to cancel out the extra aperture to some extent; the disc detail was not significantly better until I added the DS when the 'wow' factor seen in the last 2 images kicked in!

The only other problem is that I can't find anyone in Europe with the scope you suggest in stock. The only 100 that Lunt Europe has in stock is a 3400 feathertouch and they quote 3-4 MONTHS as the likely time for delivery of any other Lunt 100 spec. All other dealers I contact simply call Lunt Europe and then pass on the same message :evil:

I might have to explore importing from the US directly as I have with other hi-tech gear in the past.

Thanks for your advice - can't think of anyone more qualified to give it.


:bow2


Mike


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by GUS »

I just purchased a Lunt LS100 Tha/B1800,and also own a Lunt LS60PT/B1200 (going on three years now) with a LS60f DS etalon. The double stack 60 is an amazing scope visually,I've just started imaging a month ago and it gives great results even with my limited ability. The LS100 scope gives amazing single stack views, with incredible prom and spicule detail,and reasonable surface detail,and the B1800 shows a lot dimmer image than my B1200 on my LS60,but after spending all today testing out the LS100, even though the image is darker through the B1800, it just means that I have to look longer through the eyepiece to see the same amount of detail as the B1200.
If you're keeping the SM 40 scope you can use the BF out of it as well to give an even brighter image,especially for visual(I've been using my BF10 out of an SM 40, visually for three years on the LS60).I find the double stack 60 image definitely gives the wow factor, compared to the single stack LS100, but with the 100 I can crank the power up way beyond the 60 for some high power detailed views, and you can always double stack later on.


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by grimble_cornet »

That is exactly the 'hands-on' direct comparison I was hoping for; thank you :bow2

I will keep the SM40 as it is great for imaging the whole disc in one go and I had read that the BF was useable with Lunt scopes.
I'm not sure how the observations about darker/brighter views impact on imaging though; I do very little visual work (eyesight going downhill) and found the view through the 1200 on the Lunt 60 pretty difficult compared to the SM40 :oops:
The only LS100 I can find available 'off the shelf' in Europe at the moment is the 3400 version. Even if I'm willing to stump up with the extra £500 I wonder what happens in terms of brightness and quality - Stephen made the point that its almost impossible to make a perfect/consistent 1800 filter so what are the chances of making a 3400...... and does it matter?

You have identified and helped with my main trade-off decision: the 'incredible prom and spicule detail of the 100' versus the 'wow factor' of the 60 in DS mode.
As you have exactly the personal experience I am looking for......... could you please look at the 2 images below and tell me how they compare with what you see or, even better, what you can image with the two scopes? My real concern is how much surface detail will I get with the higher magnification/resolution of the 100 SS compared to the lower mag/res but narrower bandpass of the 60 DS.
The two images are about as good as I could manage with just a couple of days experience using the LS60 but probably represent about 80% of what I could hope for when I have ironed out the bugs.
Lunt 60 SS 2014 0724 1340 ut coloured inverted.jpg
Lunt 60 DS 2014 0724 1438 ut inverted coloured.jpg
The 2 images were taken about an hour apart and processed in the same way so, hopefully, give a good indication of SS compared to DS on the LS60. They have been coloured and inverted which may complicate things slightly but they are fairly typical of my current presentation style :?

My question - if you feel able to answer it - is.................
How would the surface detail shown here compare with what I might expect from a SS LS100 under similar 'reasonable' seeing conditions?

Thanks again for your advice :bow2


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by GUS »

Hi Mike, I'm no expert at this as I've only been doing solar(visual only) for three and a half years now, and imaging for the last month,so Steven is probably the best person to give opinions on this.

The following are only my personal experiences. I've had the LS60PT for about 3 years, the DS60F for about 2 months and the LS100Tha for about two weeks now. My camera is a one shot ccd mono.I'm a visual observer hence my decision to get a DS for the 60 and also the 100 for a brighter view and to be able to up the magnification beyond the 60mm. As I mentioned in previous post, the view through the LS 100 is amazing on proms and spicules,and surface details are great. the view through the LS60 single stack is not as bright as the 100, but still a great detailed view,but once double stacked with the 60F, becomes incredible,especially when there are ARs.

I showed the LS60 DS view compared to the LS100 SS view to a couple of friends and all said the DS view was more impressive on surface detail but the 100 exceeded on proms and spicules, as expected. Regards the BFs imaging wise, the LS60DS with the b1200, the exposure was 6 milliseconds, and the BF10 was 1 millisecond. I Haven't tried the B1800 but is definitely darker(visually) than the B1200 . Image wise I can't comment as I haven't used the 100mm for imaging yet.The difference between the 60 and 100 in SS mode is about as similar to the difference between the 40 and the 60.

I moved up to the 60 from a PST, and then a DS SM40. Originally I wasn't impressed by the 60, but after a few months of use and changing the BF to the Coronado BF, I was impressed, and once you add double stack,It's like a new scope.
With the LS 100, it took a couple of days,and trying different BFs ,to appreciate what it can deliver. If I had to make a choice between both, it would be hard, the LS60PT/DS60 is smaller,lighter, and still delivers incredible views, I can use up to 100x on most days single stack. The LS100, about twice the weight of the DS60 , gives incredible views on Proms and spicules, and great views on surface( as expected of a 0.7 ang system), but is a lot heavier and needs a decent mount.

These are only my impressions, using mainly Coronado filters (visually),but if you've got the money, like Steven said, go with the LS100/B1800, and you can always double stack later.


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by GUS »

Just noticed the side bar,Ive reached 200 posts and somehow that makes me an expert(not).


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by solarchat »

compared to the general public you are a doctoral candidate ..:)


Stephen W. Ramsden
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http://www.solarastronomy.org
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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mike

I used to work with a LUNT60 SS, then DS, switched to a LUNT 100 SS, had changed the blue filter and now I'm really happy with it. I work with a B3400 but I don't think that that is necesary. I would rebuy that combo with a B1800. My main interest is in imaging though.

Ah, I have forgotten. A feather touch is a must ;)
Last edited by swisswalter on Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by GUS »

Thanks Steven, I had to laugh, after mentioning in the previous post about not being an expert,and then seeing it in the side bar.


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by grimble_cornet »

Thanks guys, you have given me answers to just about all of my initial questions :bow2

Gus: your comparisons of SM40, LS60 (SS v DS) and LS100 are incredibly helpful as I can relate to the first two by personal experience and that allows me to put the LS100 in context. The extra weight of the 100 is not an issue as I have just installed a pier for my HEQ5Pro which will handle the LS100 side-by-side with my 60mm CaK scope without any problem.
Walter: your comments and incredible images have convinced me that the LS100 SS will give me the best of both worlds, great proms and spicules AND a 'wow' of disc detail. I am also almost exclusively an imager so your comments on the 3400 v 1800 and Feathertouch as a must are especially helpful.
Stephen: as the only guy I know about who routinely spends his day in a 'solar forest', your advice is priceless!

All I need now is to find someone able to sell me a LS100/B1800/Feathertouch before I die of old age :cry:
I might end up with the 3400 version just to avoid a 4 month wait!


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by marktownley »

Hi Mike, I'm slow to dive in here...

You're in exactly the same quandary as me; I have the DS40 as you know and also are getting the 'fever' to buy something larger. I think (and others may disagree) that if you're just presenting full disk images on the web at 800x800 you might aswell stick with that for imaging at that scale. Unless you're doing medium scale closeups there is no real gain (IMHO) in using the Lunt60. I think you can improve the images you are getting from your existing kit by developing your post processing skills a bit more.

I would echo the advice of others here and go for a Lunt 100, that is what I would (want to) get. Given where we are and the Birmingham heat island playing havoc with our seeing conditions, i'm confident you would be able to use the Lunt100 most of the year - certainly spring through summer and autumn. This is what I find with my 100mm PST mod. I like the PST mod but has an uneven field in terms of both brightness and bandpass, which bugs me!

I'd just buy that 100/3400 with a feathertouch if you have the money to drop now, you could be waiting for sometime for an alternative, byu which point winter will be here...

mark


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by grimble_cornet »

Thanks Mark, I was hoping you would chip in as your local knowledge and experience with Ha mods of various types is extremely relevant.
I've followed your journey for several years, watching the quality of your SM40 images improve and trying to follow your discussions and work out how I could benifit :oops:
I have also been fascinated by the various Ha mods you have been involved in and tried to understand the conversations you were having with Merlin and more recently Swisswalter. I got some data from Merlin and considered doing a pst mod but was put off by the limitations and potential frustrations which are bugging you now; narrow fov, hot-spots etc. and finally decided that, from everything I had read, Lunt was the way to go.
However, the opportunity to see a Lunt in action only came last week when I was offered a LS60 DS to play with....... and I am now hooked!
I have also been reading through your recent thread regarding your next move and nodding as I read the same points which are bugging me :lol:

The LS80 appeals as being a bit more portable so I could take it up to my caravan on the Scottish Borders where the seeing - over the sea- is much better and the double stack is tempting.
But, my real love is in capturing complex proms; especially time lapses and the ability of the LS100 to pull out extra detail, spicules etc. is probably going to be the decider - exactly as Stephen suggested after reading my long waffle which started this thread.
Seeing the detail in my first decent DS shot was the trigger for me to actually do something and my only real concern was whether, compared to the LS60 DS, I would be disappointed with the surface detail through the LS100 SS. However, having spoken to Walter and looked at some of his images through that scope........ my concerns are resolved!
You are correct about improving my processing skills. Believe it or not, they have improved vastly since I joined this group and started to follow advice from you and Pedro in particular. I was looking through my Solar Archive a few days ago and was amazed:
This was one of the best images I produced in 2012:
Sun 2012 0416 1103 ut.jpg
I think that this shows some improvement:
SolarMax ZWO ASI120MM with proms.jpg
But, there are still lots of things I am unhappy with. I am experimenting with the ZWOASI120mm camera I use for planetary/lunar but it produces horrendous Newton's rings and responds totally differently to my DMK41 to changes in gain/shutter speed/gamma. Just ordered a tilt mount to try and sort it. My main problem is that nobody in my astro group does solar and so there is no opportunity to share ideas. That's why I was so pleased to find this group where there is lots of expertise....... even if it is frustrating to see so many superb images with little or no information given about equipment used or capture/processing protocols :cry:

Anyway, I agree totally with your advice about the LS100 3400......... and possibly very long delays, onset of winter, solar minimum etc. etc.
Just waiting for a reply from my last hope supplier in Germany who quote a 2 week delivery on the LS100 1800 - but I suspect it will become 3-4 months once I push them!

Off to play with CaK between the clouds.

Thanks again for the advice

:bow2


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mike

the portability of the LUNT 100 is no issue at all, but the gain on light versus the LUNT 80 helps in doing prom work.

meanwile have fun in the sun with the CaK setup


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by Derek Klepp »

Exactly what Stephen said I took his advice a few years back and this scope really gives the wow factor. I have too many scopes and this would be the last one I would forgo.With your processing skills you will not be dissappointed.When someone doubts this scope I always post this shot
Attachments
2012 Review1.jpg


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Re: Temptation, temptation ...which Lunt to move up a level?

Post by grimble_cornet »

Thanks Walter. I have an old Celestron CPC800 - 8 inch SCT on an alt/az goto mount - which I keep at my holiday home and I just piggy-back the SM40 on the camera bracket. I tried the same with my Lunt 60 CaK a few weeks ago and it was a 'just about'. For the LS100 I will have to sort out a basic mount for use away from home which will, no doubt produce better results with my other scopes anyway so is a good idea :lol:

Derek, if I had any remaining doubts then that montage of images takes care of them. Thanks for the kind words; I have nothing to compare my images with other than what I see on the internet and they often contain little information about conditions, equipment, processing etc. so I don't really know if I am comparing apples with oranges! Mark lives just a few miles away from me and occasionally we image the same object through the same scope (SM40) under similar conditions which allows a direct comparison. I almost always lose but I fool myself into thinking that the difference is getting smaller :lol:

I am doing some serious experimenting with capture settings, cameras and processing protocols at the moment; trying to get a handle on what really makes a difference so, if I can approach the new scope with the same analytical method I think I have some hope of living up to the flattering comments about my ability made by you and Walter. :oops:

Many thanks to everybody who has contributed to solving my Lunt purchasing dilemma over the last few days.

:bow2


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