Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

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Ewan
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Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Ewan » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:05 pm

Placed this order back in August with Rupert at Astrograph & it turned up over a week a go.

I had to wait a while for the scopes to arrive with Rupert & the D-ERF filter from Baader is a special order item so this also had a fairly long lead time.
I will take this opportunity to thank Rupert for his patience towards my impatience, I had at one point expressed a concern over the fact that the scope didn't come with a hard case, this was an error but Rupert has indeed supplied a hard case that it can be stored in when not in use. I like to store all my scopes in cases where possible as I feel they need the best protection possible.

Anyway I thought I had better do a mini-review on the new additions, please remember I have not had a chance for a first light of scope or filter.

First off if anyone if here is thinking of buying a 150mm + refractor these things are BIG !, I knew it would be quite a step up from the 80mm but even I was surprised at how much larger they are.

As you can see in the images (lighter is for scale purposes) it is quite a lump, the scope is pretty front heavy as expected but not overly so.

The focuser is 3" in size which I really like as I have seen some images with a 2.5" used, the general appearance of the focuser is exactly the same as my Altair Astro 80mm APO with a fine adjuster of the same colour as well.

It is an F5.9 & 760mm when dew shield is closed.

The Baader filter appears to be very well made indeed, nice solid build & mark free across the faces of the filter, not much else to say about it other than it weighs approx. 1.5Lb.

Sorry I cannot say much more but not having actually tried it out yet I would be lying if I said it worked great.

Best way of cleaning the filter ? lens pen or Wonder Fluid ?


ATB

Ewan
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D-ERF & Quark smaller.jpg
B.jpg
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E.jpg

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marktownley
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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by marktownley » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:13 am

Great setup there Ewan! More great service from Rupert too. Look forward to seeing some images from the setup when the conditions allow.

Cleaning the filter, looking at the pics you don't appear to need to do so, personally I wouldn't worry about a bit of dust, but if you really must then use the lens blower pen.
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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Valery » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:26 am

Hi Ewan,

Great upgrade.

But I am a bit confused why you bought a 135mm ERF instead of 150mm?

This is a noticeable loss in resolution power.


Valery
"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.

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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Ewan » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:00 pm

Valery wrote:Hi Ewan,

Great upgrade.

But I am a bit confused why you bought a 135mm ERF instead of 150mm?

This is a noticeable loss in resolution power.


Valery
Thanks Valery, Mark.

As to your query Valery here's a really daft question but I assume the size is the clear glass size & not including the cell that holds it at all ?
I don't actually have the email now with the discussion me & Rupert had but it was his recommendation, if I remember correctly it could have been that there would not have been a lot of difference in image quality wise from 135mm to 150mm, I cannot be 100% sure though. Could have been down to cost as well.

The actual size of the glass from edge to edge is 125mm so even I am a little miffed at this, i may have to email Rupert to see if he still has a copy of the info he sent me.

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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by marktownley » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:11 pm

With the Baader DERFs the size that Baader quote is the full aperture of the filter. I own several and so can testify to this. The actual aperture will always be less as the edge of the DERF has to be held / mounted in the cell.
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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by grimble_cornet » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:03 pm

Which is why I bought the 160mm version which even when in its cell (thank you Mark) still allows me to use the full aperture of my 152mm f5.9 refractor. Cost was certainly a factor - the 135mm is 795 Euros compared to 995 for the 160mm and the lead time was longer (almost 6 months for me) but I decided 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and have no regrets. Now, if I could only get a glimpse of the Sun........
.

.



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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Astrograph » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:34 am

Hi Guys

Just to respond about the reason for recommending a 135mm ERF for the 152 instead of the full size (in this case it would have been a 160mm).

1) This 152 is a native F5.9. When used with a Quark that results in an effective F25.3. This will result in the Quark working at probably its least efficient as light is not passing through the etalon parallel. With the aperture reduced to 135mm the F ratio becomes 28.7 which is low enough to get the Quark working as well as it is going to resulting in a narrower bandpass and hence more contrast of surface features. Tests have shown that a 0.5A rear mounted filter running at F25 acts more like a 0.7A filter.

2) Seeing affects observing and imaging by a large amount. If we were all able image from perfect locations we could benefit from large apertures. In the real world we are surrounded by all sorts of things which interfere. It is generally accepted that the upper limit for reliable seeing is about 130mm. That does not mean to say a larger aperture won't deliver better results but it does mean it will be the exception rather than the rule. Therefore a 135mm solar scope should deliver results that are as good as you can possibly get most of the time.

3) Its a [hot place] of a lot cheaper to buy the 135mm and cell!

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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Valery » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:33 am

Astrograph wrote:Hi Guys

Just to respond about the reason for recommending a 135mm ERF for the 152 instead of the full size (in this case it would have been a 160mm).

1) This 152 is a native F5.9. When used with a Quark that results in an effective F25.3. This will result in the Quark working at probably its least efficient as light is not passing through the etalon parallel. With the aperture reduced to 135mm the F ratio becomes 28.7 which is low enough to get the Quark working as well as it is going to resulting in a narrower bandpass and hence more contrast of surface features. Tests have shown that a 0.5A rear mounted filter running at F25 acts more like a 0.7A filter.

2) Seeing affects observing and imaging by a large amount. If we were all able image from perfect locations we could benefit from large apertures. In the real world we are surrounded by all sorts of things which interfere. It is generally accepted that the upper limit for reliable seeing is about 130mm. That does not mean to say a larger aperture won't deliver better results but it does mean it will be the exception rather than the rule. Therefore a 135mm solar scope should deliver results that are as good as you can possibly get most of the time.

3) Its a heck of a lot cheaper to buy the 135mm and cell!

Hi Rupert,

I politely disagree with your conception.

There is no any substitute for an aperture. Aperture rules. Always.

It is quite easy to keep Quark as narrow as it is. I personally use a weak barlow lens screw-in in front of the Quark nose.
This gives slower F/D and allows Quark to work at it's best. To make scale smaller and fit the scale to camera pixels size
I use focal reducers.

My experiments also tell me that seeing wise there is no real difference between 100mm and 150mm aperture, not say
about 130mm vs 150mm. With a 150mm aperture one will have at least the same results (resolution wise) as with a 130mm aperture
under poor seeing. But when the seeing allows a full resolution for a 130mm aperture, it will allow a full resolution at a 150mm
aperture.



Valery.
"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.

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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Astrograph » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:54 am

Hi Valery

We will have to agree to disagree then. :D

Putting a barlow lens infront of the Quark is not something I have ever tried so I will reserve judgement on that but doing that and then adding the reducer to offset the increase in focal length does not seem to make any sense. You are just adding glass and the not always positive effects that adds.

I did say that good seeing can show the benefit of more aperture but that is the issue. In the UK seeing does not necessarily allow you to benefit from it. You can normally get good results from <80mm scopes without trying to hard but above this the day tends to make the difference.

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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Ewan » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:13 pm

Thanks for all the input guys, been enlightening.

Rupert you beat me to it with a reply but you explained things more clearly than I would have done.
The proof will be in the pudding so to say, I would bet though that if i had just posted an image & said it was a full aperture D-ERF no one would have been any the wiser.

I really don't think you are going to be able to see any difference at all between a 135mm V's a 160mm, if you can then i will buy a 160mm as well.

I understand your explanation Rupert about diminishing returns in regards to aperture, the amount of resolution i will now gain going from an 80mm to a 135mm (filter size) would outweigh the gain of going from 135mm to 160mm.

I am by means as knowledgeable as you Rupert or indeed Valery but a 1st light picture should put this quandary to bed, & as i will be nearer the best F30 mark things should be promising.

The link made a good read Rupert thank you http://www.daystarfilters.com/inout_art ... Resolution & made perfect sense.

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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by marktownley » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:27 pm

That's an interesting link Ewan, thanks for that.

It all ties in with decisions i've been making at the moment myself. In terms of (Ha) scopes I own myself I have my trusty double stacked 40mm Coronado which I can use I estimate >95% of the time throughout the the year. 12 months ago I got the ED80 to use with my Quark, which, here under the urban skies of the west midlands with it's population of nearly 3 million people, I can use about 75% of the time. Then I have my trusty 100mm scope, which I reckon I can effectively use its aperture 40-50% of the time. This year I rigged out my rather shoddy and optically poor 127mm frac for use in solar, for me, most of the time I got no real increase in resolution the extra aperture offered over the 100mm ( got extra image scale but that is different), I reckon this year i've been able to effectively use the 127mm <5% of the time - maybe had a dozen times for me this year...

I hear what you're saying Valery that aperture is king, and I agree it is if the seeing makes it worthwhile. Sadly the jet stream seeing here in the UK is not something in our favour.

I think Ewans choice of scope (and ERF) and Ruperts recommendation is a good one for the conditions we have here in the UK to complement the 80mm he already has. Mikes choice to run a 152 at full aperture with a ERF is also a good choice as he has a number of scopes of differing apertures from small to large, and so this complements the range.

I'm currently toying with the idea of a larger aperture scope, but, I have to say I think I will probably go for a (better quality) 127mm f1200 scope (and full aperture ERF) than a 152, for 2 main reasons for me; it is cheaper (and I have a moonlite focuser I can drop straight on the back) and also I will be able to use it more often effectively.

Don't get me wrong, if seeing allowed I would slap the cash and buy a 180mm or 200mm frac, but, from where I am seeing isn't great, so i'll stick with the smaller apertures :)
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Re: Baader 135mm D-ERF 152mm Technosky arrived

Post by Valery » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:51 am

marktownley wrote:
Don't get me wrong, if seeing allowed I would slap the cash and buy a 180mm or 200mm frac, but, from where I am seeing isn't great, so i'll stick with the smaller apertures :)
I can agree in the case of visual observations, but not in the case of imaging. With new modern very fast and very sensitive cameras it is possible to beat the seeing. Modern cameras allows about 150fps ~ 6000 frames in a 40 seconds movies. High sensitivity at H-a allows short exposures as short as 2ms = effective seeing freezing. And the selection of only 1-2% of frames will give high chances to get good enough stacked image which will please you after a careful processing. 150mm aperture is not that limited by the seeing.
9" and up - yes, but not a 150mm.


Valery.
"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.

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