Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

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Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Hello everyone, I'm a stellar (Sun and other stars) observer from Florence (Italy) and this is my first post here in this wonderful forum :)

I started with the super classic PST and one year ago I moved to a Lunt 60 SS / PT / FT / BF 1200.
With the latter the views are amazing!!!

Now I have the opportunity to do an upgrade toward a Lunt 80 SS / PT / Crayford / BF 1200 but I have some doubts:
In your opinion, considering an upgrade from the Lunt 60 SS / PT / FT / BF 1200, it would be a better choice the simple DS 60 unit, or upgrading to a Lunt 80 SS / PT / Crayford / BF 1200?
The 80 will have more resolution and a very even field, but it will also have a Crayford (I can change it for the FT, but it's not so cheap), a smaller BF compared to the aperture (even if not so smaller), and moreover a possible future double stacking unit, the DSII, which is not so loved as the DS 60 unit because of the great ghost image that it produces (now there is the new polarizer, but it will also decrease the light even more than the DSII alone).

PS: I will do only visual.

Thank you!!!

Roberto


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by marktownley »

For visual only double stack in as large an aperture as you can afford :)

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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Thank you! ;)

But do you think that 20mm more in aperture would beat all the other disadvantages?

Reading online it seems to me that the Lunt 80 SS has a more even field than the Lunt 60 SS, but that the Lunt 60 DS has a more even field than the Lunt 80 DS.
And, if I put also the polarizer on the 80, the Lunt 60 DS could be also brighter than the Lunt 80 DS.
Furthermore the 60 DS wouldn't have the ghost image which is present on the 80 DS...


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by marktownley »

I'll pose another question then; do you prefer closeup high res views or full disks?


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

The answer "both" would be too easy :D
No, between those two I prefer full disk views. With the possibility to close up until physics allows.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Montana »

For visual full discs I would definitely say double stack. Honestly if you are only on single stack you haven't seen half the sun yet :) I couldn't believe what I had been missing. Once seen, you can never go back to single.

More aperture is only really necessary for imaging freaks :)

A very warm and sunny welcome :hamster:

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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Montana »

PS All double stacks create ghosts, you just push them out the way :)

Alexandra


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Derek Klepp »

Yes I will agree to some extent but it is amazing what you can train your eye to see.I have various Solar apertures and the larger aperture is always best visually.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Thank you all!!!

I've already observed with a DS system and I know that that's the way to go. In particular I've observed with a Daystar Quark on my Lunt 60 and with a spectacular Lunt 100 DS.

My question is if at the end I could enjoy more the 60 DS or the 80 DS, since it's true that 80 mm is a little more aperture than 60 mm, but for the DS I think that all the other things are in favor of the 60 (while for the SS I think that they are all in favor ofthe 80).
Montana wrote:PS All double stacks create ghosts, you just push them out the way :)
Uhm uhm... how? :)
I'm not so experienced in DS, but I'm thinking that if it's easy to push the ghosts away everyone would have done that and nobody would complain about this so much (I've not heard complains about the ghosts of the Lunt 60 DS, but I've heard many about the 80 DS).

Even if in the last 3 months the problem has another name: clouds!


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Montana »

When you double stack two etalons there is always a ghost image of the Sun created by a reflection. It is on every single double stacked hydrogen alpha system. It is easy to tell when you look through the telescope as it is impossible to focus on the ghost image and if you adjust the etalon tuning the ghost whizzes out of the field of view whereas the real Sun would not do that. I spent half an hour stumped by this when I first got my Solarscope DS system until it dawned on me I wasn't looking at the real image of the Sun.

To set up the DS, first get the single stack etalon on band (darkest possible filaments). Then add the DS unit and adjust the tuning for the brightest image where the ghost image is not over the top of the real image but slightly to one side. Here is an image of my PST with the DS unit on where I forgot to shift the ghost off to the side and out of view, I was in haste
video0002 16-02-09 12-12-51 f colour.jpg
and here is an image with it shifted to the side and out of the way
video0003 16-02-10 10-18-20 f colour.jpg
There is only a problem if the etalons are not matched well and the best on band view is actually when the ghost is sat on top of the real image, this is very nearly the case in my PST system. In my Solarscope system I had to send back my single to be perfectly matched to my DS unit so they work exactly in the opposite direction, this means the glass is tilted in opposite directions and my ghost is miles away from the real image. This is why I was confused for 30 minutes with it because a real image was nowhere near anywhere so I was convinced I had the real Sun.

I hope this makes sense but the ghost is nothing to be afraid of, it just takes a little bit of understanding but the views are like night and day with a DS and it is the best thing ever for visual.

Alexandra


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Thank you very much for your explication Alexandra! :)

So at the end of the story, upgrading now the Lunt 60 SS with the Lunt 80 SS (with the possibility to DS it in the future) could be a correct choice?

So the visual difference between a Lunt 60 DS and a Lunt 80 DS would be significant?


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Marcello »

Hi Roberto,

welcome happy to meet you here!

60 DS or 80? That's not an easy choice, you have pro and cons in either way. Ideally you should have the chance to try the two scope, then you will have the answer to your dilemma, but unfortunately we don't have often the chance to try instruments before the purchase :(

I have a Lunt 60 DS (50mm the DS actually) and a larger aperture system, a 125mm with a Quark. Visually they are both very good, but different: the DS view is really impressive, the disc is superb, as Alexandra told you it's something you will not get back once you try! But also high resolution views with large aperture is very pleasant, for example when you have nice proms.

My two cent: if you can go with 80 DS that's the best! But just between 80 SS and 60 DS, I would go with the 60 DS.

Hopefully we may meet soon, at the next solarparty or you come here near Parma, and I can let you try my equipment

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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Ciao Marcello!!!

Thank you for your answer, I really hope that we'll meet at the italian solarparty, even if from Florence it takes almost 4 hours by car!

I'm seriously considering the 80, for the moment SS and in the future DS.
My doubts are coming from the reviews of the DSII for the 80, which seems to be the worst double stack unit among all the Lunts.
What I don't know is if it is the worst but among super qualities (that would be the worst among supers, so a really good unit anyway), or if it seriously has some great problems more than the other DS units.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Bill Edelen »

Having both a Lunt DS 60/60 and a single 80 ...I like the added resolution the 80 gives me and tend to use it most of the time. I also had a DSII but it didn't work out for me so I sold it, with no regrets. I can also use the 60f to DS the 80 with excellent results.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Hi Bill!!

Why the DSII didn't work out for you?

Because that's my main fear: in the future I really would have a DS telescope, but is it sure that waiting and then spending money for the 80 DSII will worth it?

Sincerely I've heard so many discordant opinions on the 80 DSII (versus so many enthusiastic comments on the 60DS) that I'm quite confused.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by GUS »

Hi Roberto, I have the Lunt LS100 with the DSll and the LS60 with the DS60 unit. I had a chance to look through a DS Lunt 80 owned by a member of this forum, and the view was better than what I was expecting going by reviews and comments I came across while researching the LS100 DSll. There is some ghosting visible, and it can be a bit distracting at times, but you get used to it and if binoviewing(which I mostly do) the ghost is non existant. I tried a circular polarizer for mono viewing and this completely eliminated the ghost, the image was dimmer, but I could see some fine surface detail. I personally like the DSll unit, initially it was a let down compared to the view the DS60 produced, but after a month of use, I don't regret the purchase.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Bill Edelen »

Having had the Lunt DS 60/60 first, I was use to the Jet black background it gives and how easy it is to tune and it also removes much easier.Also didn't like the mechanics of two pressure tuners.
Lunts instructions say to tune the scope in single than add the DSII but I am shore no one does this except for the first time you add the DSII., as the install and removal is cumbersome compared to a front mounted filter.
Also found edge detail was best in single setup due to glow effect the DSII gives.
I have viewed through others LS80 scopes using binos and found the glow lessened but still prefer single for edge detail.
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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Uhm, it seems a hard choice, for exemple GUS' post pushes me toward the 80 with a future DSII (also because I would like binoviewing), but Bill's post pushes me toward I don't know if the 60 DS or the 80 SS.
I would like to have the possibility to see through a Lunt 80 DSII but I don't know anyone who owns it here in Italy.

Bill, in your opinion the 80 SS could be even better than the 60 DS?! Because I've seen through DS systems and they really give spectacular views compared to the equivalent SS.

And then, in double stacking the Lunt 60, is the 60DS unit so good or also the Solarmax 60 could be the same (with half of the really high price)?

Thank you again.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Bill Edelen »

If I could only keep one DS60/60 or SS80 it would be the SS80... Aperture rules....The LS80 is an amazing scope with better contrast and largest sweet spot I have ever seen in any other single stacked scope .

AS far as the DSII is concerned ,you are getting a full aperture 80mm double stack for very little $ compared to a front mounted full aperture filter.But as with everything in life you get what you pay for.The trade off is the background glow and complexity .

No comment on the coronado with it's center obstruction.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Valery »

Bill Edelen wrote:If I could only keep one DS60/60 or SS80 it would be the SS80... Aperture rules....The LS80 is an amazing scope with better contrast and largest sweet spot I have ever seen in any other single stacked scope .

No comment on the coronado with it's center obstruction.
Hi Bill,

Objective mounted (in front of objective) etalons have largest possible sweet spot. So, any 90mm and up refractor equipped with SM90 Coronado front mounted etalon will have significantly better uniformity of sun disk than Lunt 80THa with internally mounted etalon. Not say that 90mm aperture have greater resolution and allows to push magnification more than 80mm aperture.

If both LS80THa and SM90 have the same band wide, I would go with SM90. Second SM90 costs only a little more than DSII unit for LS80THa. But front mounted DS SM90 is far superior (sweet spot and uniformity wise) than LS80THa + DSII unit.

I can add that I never saw such a contrast SS telescope as my former Coronado SM90 + BF30 combo.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by GUS »

Hi Roberto, I have the Lunt LS60 DS filter and a Coronado SM60 DS filter, I usually use the SM as a triple stack on my LS0PT/ 60F. Both DS units are similar, the Lunt having better build quality, but both show the same amount of detail with the image slightly darker with the Coronado. I originally bought the Coronado as DS for the Lunt scope, made an adaptor using a second Lunt lens cap, worked fine.
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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

Ciao Valery! Yes, the Coronado SM90 front etalon would be just perfect, in that case the problem for the moment it's budget. Because the Lunt 80 would be a used one at an affordable price, but the SM90 it's very difficult to find in the used market.
I'm still undecided between the Lunt 80 and a DS unit for the Lunt 60.

Thank you very much GUS! It's a precious information because I could find a Coronado SM60 front etalon at a super lower price than the Lunt 60 front etalon, so if the amount of detail is almost the same I certainly will choice the Coronado if I'll decide to DS the Lunt 60.

Decision in progress...


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

OK I'm about to buy a second hand Solarmax 60 front etalon to DS my Lunt 60.
I can have it for a serious lower price than the Lunt 80, and also than the Lunt 60 DS front etalon, so for the moment I think I'll choose that solution, in the future when the budget will allow I'll think about a wider aperture.

Thanks to all of you, you are a mine of informations!!! ;)

And I still have questions, does anyone has tried the Coronado BF 15 VS Lunt BF 1200 on a Lunt solarscope?


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Calavera »

Hi Roberto,

did you just saw this thread/post? http://solarchat.natca.net/viewtopic.ph ... 34#p177733

Here you find my favorite 60mm systems as I use a Lunt LS60 too. For me the doublestacking with the Solarmax60 filter works a tick better then with the original Lunt DS unit - the Solarmax is a "first-release" I don´t know if this matters...

With another Lunt DS unit I use the LS60 just like GUS as a triple system which gives great visual views!!!

Reg. you question - I got a 15mm blockfilter with my Solarmax60 - it works as good as the Lunt blocking filter but I modified my Lunt 1200er blocking filter a bit (another (blue) filter glas and tiltable blocking filter) which gives just brighter views when using it in double or triplestack - so I prefere it over the Coronado blockfilter.

cs
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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Solar B »

For me in Solar visually ... Bandwidth rules and not aperture ... Like everything it's
quality over quantity ... my preference would be toward pre Meade Coronado filters or even Solar-Scope if possible ... a Lunt 60 with an SM 60 should be great though.

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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

OK, me too I really love double stack systems, so I've decided to go that way with my Lunt 60.

At the end I've purchased 2 used Solarmax 60 front etalons, one it's type I and the other is type II.

I'll try both the front etalons (and also the triple stack) and decide which is better.

Thank you very much Calavera, very interesting thread!!

Now I have 2 more questions ;)
- What does it consist of the modification of the BF?
- How did you have attached the Solarmax etalon to the Lunt?


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Calavera »

Hi Roberto,

the blocking filter unit was modified with another blue-glas and a tiltable blocking filter frame (therefore is that little silver lever you can see in one of the pics).

The changed blue-glas gives a brighter view which is very usefull if using the scope as doublestack system with a second etalon in the front (which has another red-front-ERF too). In single stack the blocking filter is just usable after the mod but a little bit too bright for my taste.

The tilting of the blocking filter itself allows to bring reflexes by the blocking filter out of the field of view (what didn´t helps for refelxes between the etalons!).

All the filters are fixed by special made adapter-rings.

All the mods and the adapter rings too were made by Wolfgang Lille a very well known specialist for solar viewing - check out his website at: http://www.sonnenfernrohr.de - a very nice guy! :)

cs
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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by george9 »

Valery wrote:
Hi Bill,

Objective mounted (in front of objective) etalons have largest possible sweet spot. So, any 90mm and up refractor equipped with SM90 Coronado front mounted etalon will have significantly better uniformity of sun disk than Lunt 80THa with internally mounted etalon. Not say that 90mm aperture have greater resolution and allows to push magnification more than 80mm aperture.

If both LS80THa and SM90 have the same band wide, I would go with SM90. Second SM90 costs only a little more than DSII unit for LS80THa. But front mounted DS SM90 is far superior (sweet spot and uniformity wise) than LS80THa + DSII unit.

I can add that I never saw such a contrast SS telescope as my former Coronado SM90 + BF30 combo.


Valery.
I understand that in theory, a front-mounted filter should have a larger sweet spot than an internal one due to the angles involved. But in practice, I am finding that the sweet spot on my LS80 SS is significantly bigger than the sun and my LS80 DSII is a little bigger than the sun. And both are perfectly even.

My pre-Meade 60mm Coronado DS, on the other hand, has significant banding (worst when binoviewed), so you have to pick which part of the sun you want to look at. Whether that is due to the etalons or the blocking filter, I am not sure.

George
Last edited by george9 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Valery »

george9 wrote:
Valery wrote:
My pre-Meade 60mm Coronado DS, on the other hand, has significant banding (worst when binoviewed), so you have to pick which part of the sun you want to look at. Whether that is due to the etalons or the blocking filter, I am not sure.
George
All depends. Some DS etalons are - the secondary production which do not corresponds to the requirements as to main etalons.
They typically require much larger tilt to come to the CWL Ha. This cause sweet spot banding.

I have had very similar Lunt LS35F - it is very narrow, but require a lot of tilt. So, the sun is not completely in H-a.


If the etalons are right, then all what I have said is true.


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by george9 »

What I have found is that the single most important factor is the variation between units of the same model and maker. So a good sample of model X is better than a bad sample of model Y no matter what the two cost. It is unsettling to know that you are taking a chance on any filter you buy, especially given their expense. This goes for any maker. I think my LS80 is very good, but I saw a not-so-good sample at NEAF. Also a not-so-good LS100 and LS152; and a spectacular LS152. And varying PSTs. And I've seen a Coronado 90mm that looked great for 30 minutes, and then lost all contrast as it heated up in the sun. I've seen Coronado banding and low contrast (as Valery notes, it depends on how they are made). On the other hand, someone I trust sold his SolarScope because his Meade Coronado worked better. And DayStar varies in contrast and homogeneity, too.

The second factor is whether you are willing to take the time to optimize your filter. E.g., I made a copper shim to optimize the tilt between my LS80 and its DSII and did a lot of experiments on it. (Although now with the anti-reflection filter and brighter blocking filter, the tilt does not seem to matter so much.)

The good news is that what is available today is unbelievable compared to pre-2000 and pre-1980. In the older days, you had to be an engineer and make your own prominence filter. Then (pre-2000) DayStar amazed everyone, although by today's standards, they were very inhomogeneous and low contrast. Compared to pre-2000, every scope offered for purchase today works well. Compared to perfection, they vary a lot.

George


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

So, I have news.

I thought that spending money now on a Lunt 80 and then on a DSII (which is hard to find second hand, and however not so cheap), it's too much money for me.

So I have seen an offer and I have decided to buy 2 front Solarmax 60 (one is type I and the other is type II) and a BF 15.
I'll try both the etalons to double stack my Lunt 60, then I'll sell the other etalon with its BF 15.

And I can start saving for a Lunt 100 ;)

And thank you for all your posts, your experiences are really useful!!


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Re: Lunt 60 SS/DS or Lunt 80 SS/DS?

Post by Robson87 »

After one month and a half I've reached my final setup.

I've found a great offer and I've bought 2 Solarmax 60 front etalons, 1 type I and 1 type II.
I've tried both in double stack on my Lunt 60 and I've tried also the triple stack.

These are the 4 configurations:
Image

And the 2 different front etalons:
Image

Both the Solarmax 60 etalons are great for double stack the Lunt 60, even if the type I is easier and faster to use because is has not to be tilted such as the type II (type I is already tilted and it's not tiltable). And it's also smaller and lighter then type II.

The image is very very good with both the etalons, both present a clear but not disturbing banding, but the ghost image of my type II is closer to the Sun then that one in my type I, so in my type I it's easier to put the ghost image away from the field of view.

With the double stack, there is less light so the maximum magnification is reduced, but the contrast is beautifully increased!

In the triple stack mode, the maximum magnification is even more reduced and the contrast is quite more improved over the double stack (not such an improvement like from single to double stack), but I really had to stay low with the magnification because otherwise the image was too dar,k and in this way it starts to be difficult to appreciate the increased contrast of the surface.

Prominences are still there in double stack (just a little bit less defined) and even in triple stack.

At the end I've sold the type II and I'm very happy with my Lunt 60 double stacked with the Solarmax 60 type I; that's my final setup:

Image

Now I'm ready for the transit of Mercury :band


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