NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

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Valery
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NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by Valery » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:08 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:08 pm
Valeryy, i just asked your question about the 854.2 filter , you are looking at a cost of $3500 to prototype it for two 27mm filters and the process to make them currently has a low yield with low success rate. So they are pretty rare to make exactly where you want them and have to be sorted out very carefully after something called annealing.

“The filters are always offband deeply blue winged, and they have to be baked at 200+ celcius for several weeks to raise the red wing. It must be analyzed very regularly during the annealing process and this is the hard part”
These $3500 are indeed a good price for two samples of such a filter. But...

1. What the bandwidth of these filters?
2. What the transmission curve profile? What the finesse?
3. What the transmission at the CWL?
4. What the uniformity (CWL and transmission) accross the filter aperture they can warrant ?
5. What the temperature stability of the CWL and bandwidth? If the stability is low, how can the temperature be maintained?

Without knowing these data it is quite risky to get a filter which will simply don't work.

Can you clarify what they can really offer? I believe that if the answers will be positive and such a filters can really work, especially in a Skybender tilt cell, many users can order such a working system.
854,21nm line shows real H-a like structures mixtured with a supergranulation of Ca-K - like. Overall is more impressive than H-a.


What do you, solar imagers think about such possible new direction in the solar narrowband imaging?
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Ca II IR vs H-a.jpg
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by marktownley » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:16 am

Would be good if it is feasible.
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:29 am

I am trying to help Apollo get the funds for the first prototypes, that is all i can do. I do not know any of the information you request other than it will be guaranteed to be greater than 85% transmission and less than 2 angstroms each filter. I can ask all the questions you want, but getting the answers is difficult in a process that has never been attempted before.

These are not standardized filters, and they are not etalons. There is no glue or spacers involved, and they are all single element double sided substrates coating using the latest ion beam assisted magnetron sputtering. There is currently no industrial standardized process for these ultra narrow band wavelengths and it is the first time it has been attempted in 30 years of business.

The prototyping involves sacrifice, and it is understandable that mistakes/errors will occur. Lots of variables, lots of unknowns, lots of potential for error. Once the prototyping is complete, the process then becomes more reliable and cheaper to reproduce with a greater success rate.

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by Valery » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:05 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:29 am

There is currently no industrial standardized process for these ultra narrow band wavelengths and it is the first time it has been attempted in 30 years of business.
This is not true at all. I have received two filters at 6568A with 0.8A FWHM and steep sides. They are not expensive.

I also can order 1.5A FWHM with transmission >55% any time I wish in any quantity. This is for 854, or 656 or 430nm - all according specs I give them.

The question is that to see filamentary structures, spiculaes, prominences etc the filter at 8542.1A must have not wider than 0,5A bandwidth and better if this will be a double stack of 0,7A ones.

Finally, I believe that if we can create a pool, we can order etalons for this wave length with about 0,6A. May be Lunt can do this with 35mm size Pressure Tuning etalons?


Valery
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by marktownley » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:51 am

Where are the comparison images from Valery?
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:04 am

Valery, then order them. Dont know what to tell you.

88% transmission and hard coated, indestructable to moisture and pollen. Immune to thermal drift up to 150c. 27mm fully mounted.

Post your filter curve from a carey spectrometer with 1angstrom resolution.

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by Valery » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:05 am

marktownley wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:51 am
Where are the comparison images from Valery?
I don't remember the exact article or website link. But this is from the IBIS imaging spectrograph.

Google Ca I 854nm IBIS and you will see a lot of pictures at 854nm/
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IBIS  scan in pikometers (0,01A) 2.gif
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_Ca-II-I-854nm-spicules_nso_big.jpg
_Ca-II-I-854nm-spicules_nso_big.jpg (493.49 KiB) Viewed 1213 times
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:06 am

That spectrograph has a resolution no filter system will ever attain without a piezo electric atomic line filter.

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:13 am

No filter will ever beat a grating that has millions of dollars worth of programmers and physicists thrown at it.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bOvSB ... ph&f=false

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by marktownley » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:28 am

Thanks Valery
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:29 am

https://web.njit.edu/~cao/IBIS_Cavallini.pdf
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 am

Has anyone considered trying an h-alpha etalon without the red filter and replacing the spacers to change the reflectivity and blocking filter with a calcium filter? If we had a complete spectrum prof ile of a pst etalon it maybe way cheap to have the spacers remade for a different airspace to change the reflected interference and ouput.

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by Valery » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:52 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 am
Has anyone considered trying an h-alpha etalon without the red filter and replacing the spacers to change the reflectivity and blocking filter with a calcium filter? If we had a complete spectrum prof ile of a pst etalon it maybe way cheap to have the spacers remade for a different airspace to change the reflected interference and ouput.
The etalon plates theirselves are not that expensive. The problem is a proper coatings for this wave length. And the spacers.


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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by MalVeauX » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:51 pm

If 854.2 were available and affordable, I would totally go for it. The longer wavelength has better seeing potential with our atmosphere, so it would be great for high resolution imaging. Showing all the features would be excellent. I'm curious why this doesn't already exist in a popular marketed form from one of the big distributors out there that specialize in solar imaging equipment.

Very best,

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by Valery » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:16 am

MalVeauX wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:51 pm
If 854.2 were available and affordable, I would totally go for it. The longer wavelength has better seeing potential with our atmosphere, so it would be great for high resolution imaging. Showing all the features would be excellent. I'm curious why this doesn't already exist in a popular marketed form from one of the big distributors out there that specialize in solar imaging equipment.

Very best,
Tell this to Jen Winter of DayStar. She readily introduced two almost useless Quarks (Sodium and Margenisum) instead of really intresting CaII I at 8542.1A !
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:51 am

service@daystarfilters.com they will gladly make it for you. 5 angstroms at $5000

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by MalVeauX » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:24 pm

Valery wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:16 am


Tell this to Jen Winter of DayStar. She readily introduced two almost useless Quarks (Sodium and Margenisum) instead of really intresting CaII I at 8542.1A !
I do agree... I'm puzzled why anyone would want a Quark (for cost) for Sodium & Magnesium. :cry:

I'm curious why 854.2 isn't showing up with the big companies at all. Especially during a minimum when sales likely drop.

Very best,

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by Valery » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:33 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:51 am
service@daystarfilters.com they will gladly make it for you. 5 angstroms at $5000
I can get 1,5A filter within 2K. But this makes no difference with 393nm. To see fibrils and other H-a like
features one need at least 0,5A - as double stacked of 0,7A etalons.
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:07 pm

I firmly believe The only reason we are seeing these fibrils in the ibis image is because its about .05 angstroms from a grating. They are using a standard bandpass filter with 5 angstrom at 30% transmission to send a very narrow image to a reflection grating Which is funneled into two slits.

Even with a double stacked etalon system you should not expect a different result than the dutch open telescope, what are you basing the information on?

https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full/ ... 82-06.html


Image

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:18 pm

The fibrils you want are also at 393.37nm and 396.9nm , They can only be seperated from the surroundings by a grating. Or maybe a quadruple half angstrom system.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1610.03104.pdf
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:23 pm

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:26 pm

We need to get ken and spectral joe to design a grating system using common parts that take high magnification, nonfull disk image scans. Then you will get fibrils!

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by christian viladrich » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:09 pm

Skyburnner ... don't forget to read the paper you gave a link to :
https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full/ ... 82-06.html

The images you are showing are "numerically synthesized from a 3D solar magneto-convection simulation".

There are not actual images ;-)

An important point is missed in the discussion : the angular size of the fibrils. Just make the calculation ;-)
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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:20 pm

It is not a simulation, it is a .25 angstrom lyot filter.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/lef ... _228893385

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Re: NEW direction in the solar narrowband imaging.

Post by christian viladrich » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:54 pm

Please take 5 min to read the paper, these are simulations :

Image

Reading the caption just takes 30 s :-)

Figure 3 shows the computed synthetic intensity images ordered in wavelength from top to bottom.

Figure 3: Synthetic images for different spectral diagnostics identified per row at the right. The CN-band and G-band images are taken from Uitenbroek & Tritschler (2006). All images are grey-scaled to maximum display contrast. The rms intensity variation of the granulation (upper number) and the mean intensity excess of the bright points over the granulation (lower number) is indicated in each upper-left corner. Left: no spatial smearing. Middle: smeared with an Airy function corresponding to 1-m aperture. Right: image constructed by subtracting a scaled synthetic continuum image from the one in the center column.

BTW, the Ca 854.2, Ha and Hb synthetic images are on the wings of the lines in order to show photospheric details (the paper is on the detection on bright intergranular magnetic spots).
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