What camera?

Use this section to discuss "standard" Baader/Coronado/ Lunt SolarView/ Daystar, etc… filters, cameras and scopes. No mods, just questions/ answers and reviews.
Post Reply
User avatar
Montana
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 34526
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Has thanked: 17521 times
Been thanked: 8763 times

What camera?

Post by Montana »

I know this has probably been said a thousand times before but I have been reading about various cameras and I am more confused than ever. It is so complicated.

My question is would this be a good match for my Celestron C11 for use with H alpha and CaK?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-ca ... amera.html

It has the trusty 174 chip, high frame rate, but is the pixel size the right size (I never quite understand this)?

Also, you can get this chip in ZWO, PGR and Basler versions, does it make any difference? I don't want a camera that gives dreadful newton's rings in one version and not another. Is the noise OK? again I don't understand what figure is good or bad.

Or should I be buying something else?

Any answers and suggestions would be very gratefully received :)

Kind regards
Alexandra

PS here is a piccie of the Celestron with the Aries ERF finally fitted :hamster:
ImageFull aperture Aries ERF by Alexandra Hart, on Flickr


User avatar
Merlin66
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 3970
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:23 pm
Location: Junortoun, Australia
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 615 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by Merlin66 »

Alexandra,
I use the ASI 174mm on my PST mod, SM60/ED80 and the Spectroheliograph. The camera is always used with a T2 tilter as 99% of the time there are NR generated.


"Astronomical Spectroscopy - The Final Frontier" - to boldly go where few amateurs have gone before
https://groups.io/g/astronomicalspectroscopy  
http://astronomicalspectroscopy.com
"Astronomical Spectroscopy for Amateurs" and
"Imaging Sunlight - using a digital spectroheliograph" - Springer
bart1805
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:04 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: What camera?

Post by bart1805 »

Yes it is very complicated. After much reading I started with a PGR Grasshopper with the 174 chip. Yes, it gives Newton Rings when a Powermate is used. But it worked really fine. Last year I also bought the ASI290mm, one of the main reasons was the smaller pixel size. So now I can image at f/9 / f13 (depends on the scope) without the need for a Barlow. So that is something else you have to think about: what is the focal ratio you are mainly going to image with? Not much of a help here I guess: I like both the camera's, the one I use depends on the focal ratio.


User avatar
marktownley
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 42120
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Brierley Hills, UK
Has thanked: 20229 times
Been thanked: 10111 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley »

Hi Alexandra. Like Bart says it is down to the f-ratio you are working at. F10ish you're looking at the ASI290M, f20ish your PGR will work nice, for F30+ then a 174 chipped camera is the way forward.


Image
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
User avatar
Carbon60
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 14171
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: Lancashire, UK
Has thanked: 8352 times
Been thanked: 8103 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Carbon60 »

It also depends on the wavelength, of course.

CCD critical sampling calculations can be found here www.wilmslowastro.com/software/formulae.htm

The calculation suggests f22 in Ha and f37 in CaK for your 11” f10, Alexandra, using the IMX174 with 5.86um pixels.

To see what this looks like use the FoV calculator www.skyatnightmagazine.com/Astronomy-fi ... calculator

Of course, seeing will be the biggest limit to resolution. :)

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
User avatar
Montana
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 34526
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Has thanked: 17521 times
Been thanked: 8763 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Montana »

Mmmm more confused than ever now, thanks :)

I just need more frames per second than the Grasshopper that has 25fps. However I don't fancy more cost of a tilter and then more fiddling around. I was going to use the 2x and 3x Barlow with the Lunt CaK module as the 3x worked brillant with the white light. I don't have hydrogen alpha at the moment but I want the camera to work with all 3. So everyone is saying that the 174 chip is the same whether it be in the ZWO, PGR or Basler version, it always gives bad rings :(
Alexandra


User avatar
Carbon60
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 14171
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: Lancashire, UK
Has thanked: 8352 times
Been thanked: 8103 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Alexandra,

I use the Basler version (acA1920-155um IMX174) to image at both Ha and CaK wavelengths. I have never seen any NRs in CaK using this camera on any of my scopes with any of my Barlows. In the case of Ha I do have to tilt the camera a few degrees on occasion to remove them.


Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
User avatar
Merlin66
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 3970
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:23 pm
Location: Junortoun, Australia
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 615 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by Merlin66 »

Alexandra,
With the tilter...when it's installed just takes a minute or so to set it - no NR!
Never have to adjust it again, just leave it in place on the camera.


"Astronomical Spectroscopy - The Final Frontier" - to boldly go where few amateurs have gone before
https://groups.io/g/astronomicalspectroscopy  
http://astronomicalspectroscopy.com
"Astronomical Spectroscopy for Amateurs" and
"Imaging Sunlight - using a digital spectroheliograph" - Springer
User avatar
marktownley
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 42120
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Brierley Hills, UK
Has thanked: 20229 times
Been thanked: 10111 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley »

Montana wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 am Mmmm more confused than ever now, thanks :)

I just need more frames per second than the Grasshopper that has 25fps. However I don't fancy more cost of a tilter and then more fiddling around. I was going to use the 2x and 3x Barlow with the Lunt CaK module as the 3x worked brillant with the white light. I don't have hydrogen alpha at the moment but I want the camera to work with all 3. So everyone is saying that the 174 chip is the same whether it be in the ZWO, PGR or Basler version, it always gives bad rings :(
Alexandra
Basically the bigger the pixel size the longer the f-ratio it works best with. A tilter is pretty much mandatory tbh, and given expenditure it's a fraction of the cost! IMHO the daystar is the best option for a tilter. https://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.com/ ... rings.html


Image
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
User avatar
Merlin66
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 3970
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:23 pm
Location: Junortoun, Australia
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 615 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by Merlin66 »

Mark,
The ZWO T2 tilter has a built-in light foam seal which stops any light leakage through the tilt gap. No need for gaffa tape etc.


"Astronomical Spectroscopy - The Final Frontier" - to boldly go where few amateurs have gone before
https://groups.io/g/astronomicalspectroscopy  
http://astronomicalspectroscopy.com
"Astronomical Spectroscopy for Amateurs" and
"Imaging Sunlight - using a digital spectroheliograph" - Springer
User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

... you can get this chip in ZWO, PGR and Basler versions, does it make any difference?
Just an FYI,

A couple of years ago I fried my Point Grey Chameleon's sensor when the Baader film filter I made intermittently partially blew off in the wind. Point Grey replaced the entire camera for a standard repair charge of $50 USD. This has earned them my loyalty (in addition to their general overall quality).

I just checked and FLIR has kept this policy in place - repair/replacement costs are based on the camera price, but remain the same and quite favorable, no matter what the cause of failure:
FLIR repair.png
FLIR repair.png (43.78 KiB) Viewed 8459 times
Something to consider...


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
marktownley
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 42120
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Brierley Hills, UK
Has thanked: 20229 times
Been thanked: 10111 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley »

That's useful to know Bob. 👍

The foam gasket is a good idea Ken.


Image
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
christian viladrich
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 2145
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:46 pm
Location: France
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2702 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by christian viladrich »

Hello Alexandra,
The first question is what is your Ha filter ?
Indeed, the Ha solar filter sets the F/D, which in turn sets the size of the pixel, which in turn sets the sensor.
If your Ha filter need F/30 or more, the short answer is the IMX174. Smaller pixel sizes won't make the job.

In a nutshell, the IMX174 is an excellent all arround sensor (Ha, CaK, white light, Moon) whatever your F/D.

The question of Newton rings is unfortunatly not very predictive. Even for a given sensor type (e.g. IMX174), it depends on the actual sensor you have in the camera. In any case, this is not a big deal, you just have to use a tilting adaptor.


Christian Viladrich
Co-author of "Planetary Astronomy"
http://planetary-astronomy.com/
Editor of "Solar Astronomy"
http://www.astronomiesolaire.com/
User avatar
MapleRidge
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 10173
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:58 pm
Location: Cambray, ON Canada
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 4299 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Alexandra...

Camera choices are full of a lot of trade offs, and all the points and suggested listed cover the topic very well. If you plan to use multiple scopes with significantly different focal lengths it will be hard to have one camera suit all needs.

Based on the C11I can support the 174 chip and have had very good performance with the ZWO version, though the Grasshopper version is likely a bit better if you can justify the extra cost. I have the Daystar tilt unit and it work very well knocking out the NR in Ha. The 174 chip has been used in WL and CaK on the 150mm refractors at f8-f32 and had no issues at all.

The 290 chip is well suited to short focal lengths, but the FOV is tiny on the long focal lengths. Its great for planetary work on the C14 since I don't need any barlows to get the resolution I want and the target is small. For solar it has worked nicely on the smaller scopes (LS80T) or prime focus on the 150mm refractor with no barlows, but I seldom use it. The PGR with the 274 chip for full disk solar and either the PGR or ZWO 174 chipped camera for the longer focal length work. The ZWO1600MM is my camera to get full disk WL/CaK with the 150mm, f8 scope at prime focus.

I think you would be happy with the 174 chip...will have to sort out camera model based on budget and the extra issue with duties and shipping to the UK. I had a camera replaced by PGR when on acted up shortly after I started to use their cameras, so I can second Kens comment.

Brian


Brian Colville

Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
User avatar
Montana
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 34526
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Has thanked: 17521 times
Been thanked: 8763 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Montana »

Thanks guys :)

I think I am settling on the 174 chip but I have no idea what hydrogen alpha system I will be using yet. I will also probably go for the ZWO version for cost reasons, a lot of people use them and don't seem to complain and I fancy a change. I have been struggling to get my 2 point grey cameras to work with Firecapture recently and so I don't fancy another to add to the pile ;) I guess I need to buy the tilter too :)

Alexandra


User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

I have been struggling to get my 2 point grey cameras to work with Firecapture recently and so I don't fancy another to add to the pile...
I recently had the same problem with my PGR Chameleon, downloading the latest SDK fixed this - it might get your current two PGR cameras working again. BTW their customer service has been quite good.

https://www.ptgrey.com/flycapture-sdk


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
marktownley
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 42120
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Brierley Hills, UK
Has thanked: 20229 times
Been thanked: 10111 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley »

Yup, you need to periodically update the SDK.


Image
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
User avatar
GreatAttractor
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 964
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:04 pm
Location: Switzerland
Has thanked: 747 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Re: What camera?

Post by GreatAttractor »

Good luck with the setup, Alexandra.
PS here is a piccie of the Celestron with the Aries ERF finally fitted
This is shaping up to be a very interesting season!


My software:
Stackistry — an open-source cross-platform image stacker
ImPPG — stack post-processing and animation alignment
My images

SW Mak-Cass 127, ATM Hα scopes (90 mm, 200 mm), Lunt LS50THa, ATM SSM, ATM Newt 300/1500 mm, PGR Chameleon 3 mono (ICX445)
User avatar
Valery
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 4059
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:13 pm
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Valery »

Montana wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 am So everyone is saying that the 174 chip is the same whether it be in the ZWO, PGR or Basler version, it always gives bad rings :(
Alexandra
Hi Alexandra,

Nice to see that your C11 now is ready for shooting the sun in multibands mode!

BTW. My Basler 1920-155 camera has NEVER showed NR with any of my C11 configurations.

I'd suggest this camera for using with a standard Quark + C11 + 0,7x reducer.

For CaK and G-band I'd suggest the same camera with TV PowerMate 4x at excellent seeing and TV PM 2.5x at average seeing.


Valery


"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.
User avatar
marktownley
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 42120
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Brierley Hills, UK
Has thanked: 20229 times
Been thanked: 10111 times
Contact:

Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley »

Pete Williamson is selling his ZWO174 Alexandra, i've mentioned your name to him.


Image
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
User avatar
Montana
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 34526
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Has thanked: 17521 times
Been thanked: 8763 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Montana »

Oooh!!!!! ta

Alexandra


User avatar
Valery
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 4059
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:13 pm
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Valery »

Alexandra, what the H-a filter do you plan to use with the C11 scope?

Valery


"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.
User avatar
Montana
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 34526
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Has thanked: 17521 times
Been thanked: 8763 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Montana »

Valery, no idea

Alexandra


User avatar
Valery
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 4059
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:13 pm
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: What camera?

Post by Valery »

Montana wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:59 am Valery, no idea

Alexandra
I would advice to choose a good PST etalon and BF10 filter.


Valery


"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.
Post Reply