Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Use this section to discuss "standard" Baader/Coronado/ Lunt SolarView/ Daystar, etc… filters, cameras and scopes. No mods, just questions/ answers and reviews.
Post Reply
User avatar
MalVeauX
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:58 pm
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 1142 times
Been thanked: 1329 times

Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by MalVeauX »

Hey all,

I think news has gotten around about the problems with Meade, financially, I wonder who may buy them up or how this will get handled? But, I'm also curious, what's the future of Solarmax series? It's always good to have competition. Anyhow, I'm really curious if anyone knows or has heard of anything regarding where the Solarmax series may go at this point? The SMII series are available as standalone etalons. The SMIII series seem to only come as a complete telescope, so if you get a single-stack, you cannot even buy the 2nd etalon later yet, it seems? Also, does anyone know if there is even a difference, quality wise or anything, between the SMII and SMIII series etalons at all other than their external look? I like the idea of two front mounted etalons in the future.

Curious!

Very best,


User avatar
marktownley
Librarian
Librarian
Posts: 42120
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Brierley Hills, UK
Has thanked: 20229 times
Been thanked: 10111 times
Contact:

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by marktownley »

Hi Marty,

I've not heard anything about it since the initial announcement.

Mark


Image
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
User avatar
DeepSolar64
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 18728
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:19 am
Location: Lowndesville S.C.
Has thanked: 17458 times
Been thanked: 16550 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I read about Meade declaring bankruptcy but know nothing more. I have a SolarMax II 60 DS. It does quite well but I never have liked the idea of the central obstruction it has in the light path. A refractor should be unobstructed. I did not research well enough when I bought it or I would have probably gotten a Lunt LS 60Tha which is unobstructed. But even with the obstruction and sometimes uneven tuning the scope does well. I can generally see much of the detail seen in the NSO GONG images.

I hope Meade/Coronado does not go under. Still, Meade and for that matter Celestron are not the companies they once were. I have always preferred Celestron over Meade but Celestron has no equivalent of the Coronado line of scopes.

I considered a SolarMax III 70. I am curious myself whether it is much better. It certainly has a better focuser and the totally external etalons give it more flexibility.


Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces

Image Visual Observer
" Way more fun to see it! "
User avatar
rsfoto
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 6124
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:30 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Has thanked: 9243 times
Been thanked: 5500 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,
I have a SolarMax II 60 DS. It does quite well but I never have liked the idea of the central obstruction it has in the light path.
If I remember well Lunt has even 3 little discs in their light path.

https://luntsolarsystems.com/wp-content ... cope-3.jpg

https://luntsolarsystems.com/shop/solar ... ar-filter/

:shock:


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
User avatar
DeepSolar64
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 18728
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:19 am
Location: Lowndesville S.C.
Has thanked: 17458 times
Been thanked: 16550 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Thanks Rainer, I am learning all the time! I must be wrong about Lunt too. It is Solarscope that is unobstructed.

https://solarscope.co.uk/solar-telescopes/


Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces

Image Visual Observer
" Way more fun to see it! "
User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

It does quite well but I never have liked the idea of the central obstruction it has in the light path. A refractor should be unobstructed.
An etalon is a filter, not a telescope. Etalons are quite sensitive to thermal variations of both the gap spacers and etalon plates themselves. A central (or other pattern) of spacers for a large air-spaced etalon helps to improve thermal stability and contrast performance by ensuring the uniformity of the etalon gap across the etalon diameter through changing temperature conditions:
Etalon thermal stability.jpg
Etalon thermal stability.jpg (112.61 KiB) Viewed 10846 times
Exaggerated depiction of central spacer patent for Coronado Instrument Group for improved solar etalon thermal stability.

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/6226 ... try8658155

Moreover, a small central obstruction can actually improve optical performance of certain levels of detail, especially small high contrast detail:

https://www.telescope-optics.net/obstruction.htm

https://www.telescope-optics.net/mtf.htm


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
DeepSolar64
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 18728
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:19 am
Location: Lowndesville S.C.
Has thanked: 17458 times
Been thanked: 16550 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Bob,

Thanks for the info. I am used to nighttime observing which does not require etalons. As a general rule anything in the light path reduces contrast. The smaller the better. None is best. I actually downsized the diagonal mirror in my old RV-6 Dynascope years ago to push an already great performer to better levels. The scope already had excellent optics and by reducing the diagonal to a size which is just big enough to catch the entire light cone gives performance probably only a little short of an apochromatic refractor the same size. I guess I am just not used to a refractor with any kind of obstruction in the light path. Still, the SM 60 does well.

James


Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces

Image Visual Observer
" Way more fun to see it! "
User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

Hi James,

At 60-70 mm, an unobstructed etalon can perform quite well. But your minimally obstructed 60 mm will likely do just as well, and the wavefront effects of the obstruction will likely be indistinguishable from an unobstructed etalon, especially given daytime seeing rarely gets to diffraction - limited levels.

Beyond a certain point, even fused quartz etalon plates begin to have significant deformations over their larger surface areas due to non-zero CTE, and these need to be mitigated via additional measures to ensure plate parallelism and gap uniformity, and tuning ability. The 100 mm SolarScope etalons needed much better protection from thermal "extortion" compared to an obstructed Coronado SM90s. They would often start out being completely off-band, and could take more than an hour to get close - but never really quite got there:
DSF100 v SM90-90 SM cmp.jpg
DSF100 v SM90-90 SM cmp.jpg (492.99 KiB) Viewed 10806 times

Using an additional Baader DERF with the OEM Solarscope helped tremendously, but the SM90s to my eye retained a slight edge:

DERF use.jpg
DERF use.jpg (490.49 KiB) Viewed 10806 times
Solar Scope may have since addressed this, but if not I would consider a Baader DERF a mandatory accessory for their 100 mm etalon.
Last edited by Bob Yoesle on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
rsfoto
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 6124
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:30 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Has thanked: 9243 times
Been thanked: 5500 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by rsfoto »

Using an additional Baader DERF with the OEM Solarscope helped tremendously, but the SM90s to my eye retained a slight edge:
Hi Bob,

Interesting. What does it mean in the above quote ? Two ERF or one ERF substituted by another one.

My double stack Coronado SM 60 has only one ERF. I took out the second ERF of the lower Etalon and I gained contrast and lower exposure times ...

Rainer


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

Hi Rainer,

It means I added a Baader DERF to the etalon assembly, which already included the Solar Scope OEM RG630 ERF with some IR blocking.

DSF100 v SM90DS DERF comp.jpg
DSF100 v SM90DS DERF comp.jpg (471.88 KiB) Viewed 10791 times

The OEM Solar Scope ERF apparently has significant IR leakage, which exacerbates the thermal instability of the 100 mm etalons (no central spacer) which I and others have noted.

Sol-ERF-lin.jpg
Sol-ERF-lin.jpg (110.31 KiB) Viewed 10791 times

A Baader DERF compliments the OEM Solar Scope ERF almost perfectly, ensuring little if any near IR reaches the etalons, and greatly mitigated the thermal instability:

Baader-D-ERF.jpg
Baader-D-ERF.jpg (98.1 KiB) Viewed 10791 times

Your Coronado SM 60's have a central spacer to mitigate thermal instability, and work well for the etalon. However, the Coronado RG630 ERF has no IR blocking, which can cause excessive thermal stress to the ITF of the blocking filter, and I would employ an additional IR blocking filter at the nose of the blocking filter itself to reduce the thermal loading and cycling that usually results in ITF degradation.
Last edited by Bob Yoesle on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
rsfoto
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 6124
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:30 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Has thanked: 9243 times
Been thanked: 5500 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by rsfoto »

Bob Yoesle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:49 pm Hi Rainer,

It means I added a Baader DERF to the etalon assembly, which already included the Solar Scope OEM RG630 ERF with some IR blocking.


DSF100 v SM90DS DERF comp.jpg


The OEM Solar Scope ERF apparently has significant IR leakage, which exacerbates the thermal instability of the 100 mm etalons (no central spacer) which I and others have noted.


Sol-ERF-lin.jpg


A Baader DERF compliments the OEM Solar Scope ERF almost perfectly, ensuring little if any near IR reaches the etalons, and greatly mitigated the thermal instability:


Baader-D-ERF.jpg


Your Coronado SM 60's have a central spacer to mitigate thermal instability, and work well for the etalon. However, the Coronado RG630 ERF has no IR blocking, which can cause excessive thermal stress to the ITF of you blocking filter, and I would employ an additional IR blocking filter at the nose of the blocking filter itself to reduce the thermal loading and cycling that usually results in ITF degradation.
Hi Bob,

Ah thank you. You killed more from the infrared ...

Rainer


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

Yes, exactly.

At sea level, over 50% of the energy from the Sun lies in the near IR. The combination of the two ERF's essentially removes everything out to 2500 nm, where the atmosphere then blocks most everything beyond.

Solar Energy Distribution.png
Solar Energy Distribution.png (69.77 KiB) Viewed 10752 times

The larger Solar Scope filters - lacking a central spacer to maintain etalon gap parallelism - are particularly vulnerable to this IR. Blocking this IR at the etalon seems to be essential. And though I employed the DERF for ITF protection, even my SM90's with a central spacer seem to perform better due to the presence of the DERF. Note the "naked" RG630 ERFs used by Coronado and DayStar are completely transparent to this IR.


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
MalVeauX
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:58 pm
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 1142 times
Been thanked: 1329 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by MalVeauX »

This is unfortunate that there's no clear road map future for Meade since they have Coronado and that's the only other affordable competition to Lunt. Also, they seem to be the only ones offering affordable front mounted etalons. Also, very disappointing that currently SMIII series options can only be had via buying the entire package together, as one cannot source a single etalon to add later.

If Meade goes down, I wonder who would buy them out and add their own spin on solar? If Orion bought them, sheesh, the costs would be silly.

Very best,


User avatar
Bob Yoesle
Almost There...
Almost There...
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 536 times
Been thanked: 806 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by Bob Yoesle »

There's the Celestron brand owners perhaps...

Wouldn't it be poetic justice if Lunt bought back their original patents and possibly production infrastructure for pennies on the dollar at auction?


Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Curiosity is the father of knowledge; uncertainty is the mother of wisdom.

Dark-Sky Defenders
Goldendale Observatory
User avatar
rsfoto
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 6124
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:30 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Has thanked: 9243 times
Been thanked: 5500 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by rsfoto »



regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
User avatar
MalVeauX
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:58 pm
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 1142 times
Been thanked: 1329 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by MalVeauX »

Bob Yoesle wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:12 pm Wouldn't it be poetic justice if Lunt bought back their original patents and possibly production infrastructure for pennies on the dollar at auction?
It would!

But then less competition :(

Very best,


RKBerta
Ohhhhhh My!
Ohhhhhh My!
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:08 pm
Location: Michigan USA
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by RKBerta »

If you look at the original suit and judgement, Meade is only the first to go through bankruptcy protection....Celestron and Sky Watcher are also named so this may go to the next step sadly. https://www.telescope.com/assets/docume ... 1-2019.pdf

I do think Meade and hopefully the other two will also survive but are slapped down.
What this means for the amateur astronomy community can be major. Will this eliminate those three major players or severely hamper their operations. And if they survive will this reduce the types of products and number of options and drive the price up for consumers.

Bottom line....perhaps there was collusion and price fixing.....and lawyers got involved as they saw money and deep pockets. BUT I suspect the people that will be hurt by this are consumers who will now have less choice and costlier products.


80mm f6 Officina Stellare APO triplet, 152mm Officina Stellare f8 APO triplet, TV 85mm f7 ED APO, 8" SCT HD, 11" SCT.
Astro Physics 900 and 1100 mounts, Ioptron MINI Tower Pro ALT/AZ mount, ZWO AM5 mount,
Lunt 60mm Ha single stack, Coronado 60mm Ha single stack with BF 30
Day Star Quark Chromosphere
Player One Neptune mono with 178 chip, 256mm DDR, tilt plane for solar imaging
ASI 071 Pro cooled color for DS imaging
ATIK 490 EX OSC for DS imaging
SBIG STL 6303e mono with RGBL and Ha, SII, OIII filters for DS imaging
ASI AIR Plus

JPL/NASA Solar System Ambassador
Michigan Scout observatory manager
User avatar
MalVeauX
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 1853
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:58 pm
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 1142 times
Been thanked: 1329 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by MalVeauX »

Unfortunately its just a business to the business people.

The same way medicine is just business for a supplier, but required for the end-user.

As we measure ourselves in the billions, each individual matters less to larger entities like corporations, or business in general.

I hope they all survive. The end-users are indeed the ones that hurt. In an already declining interest world.... :(

Very best,


User avatar
DeepSolar64
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 18728
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:19 am
Location: Lowndesville S.C.
Has thanked: 17458 times
Been thanked: 16550 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by DeepSolar64 »

It seems self-destructive if Orion sues Celestron. Synta owned Celestron is a major supplier of Orion Telescopes and Binoculars. Orion makes nothing on it's own.They are basically just a store. A brand name.


Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces

Image Visual Observer
" Way more fun to see it! "
User avatar
Valery
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Way More Fun to Share It!!
Posts: 4059
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:13 pm
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 893 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by Valery »

Meade should die. It did enough damage to other astrobusineses and astrocommunity.


"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.
User avatar
daslolo
Ohhhhhh My!
Ohhhhhh My!
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:17 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Meade / Solarmax Etalon Future?

Post by daslolo »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:15 pm It seems self-destructive if Orion sues Celestron. Synta owned Celestron is a major supplier of Orion Telescopes and Binoculars. Orion makes nothing on it's own.They are basically just a store. A brand name.
In the corporate world lawsuits are used as negotiations leverage.
Valery wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:01 pm Meade should die. It did enough damage to other astrobusineses and astrocommunity.
Such as?


PST on its way to modding heaven
Quark + Orion 120mm + beloptik
LX65 8" ACF
Post Reply