Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

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Fabio_Imm
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Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by Fabio_Imm »

Hi,
This is the account of my (still ongoing) personal odissey in buying a Ca-K Lunt filter.
The subtitle could be "Crime pays, hobby solar astronomy doesn't"

Warning: this post is a bit of a rant, but I needed to let out some steam and to reflect on how the market treat individuals with an expensive hobby as ours.

Also, in the remote event that someone from Lunt (manufacturer) or Bresser (Lunt's EU distributor) came across this story, I hope that they reflect on their Quality Assurance and Warehouse Management policies.

Round 1
After a quick market research I settled for the LS18CaKMDs2 (straight unit) as I am interested in imaging only.
One month ago I placed an order and paid for it: once I received the parcel, I was confronted with a brand new, spotless LS18CaKMDd2 (star diagonal unit). This unit retail price in EU is almost 50% more expensive than the straight one, while in the USA they both cost the same... :|
Being honest and stupid, I pointed out the error and it even took some effort convincing them because, against all evidences, apparently their warehouse managers do not make mistakes...
I returned the star diagonal unit and waited for the replacement to arrive.

Round 2
The replacement unit was delivered yesterday: as you can already guess, the package contained another star diagonal unit :shock:
This particular unit was probably assembled at a construction yard, since both the ERF as well as the BF are generously sprinkled with large particles of dust on the external and internal surfaces.
A beautiful 2cm splinter of wood was also included from the factory in the original packaging.
Now negotiating return number 2

So currently I am fighting Round 3... I am disillusioned, since the online stocks of the straight unit are now depleted, with a 90+ days restocking period: wish me luck. :cry:
I probably will end up applying for a refund, after all the time and effort wasted in the process.

Both units were nicely housed in a cardboard package well cushioned with foam.
However, the instructions clearly state to store them in a warm dry place. Speaking of "shelf life" in storage, they are packaged in an unsealed plastic bag, without a single dessiccant bag thrown in.
Also, the extreme variability in quality control was depressing.

Final thoughts
This made me remember why I always bought all of my serious astronomy gear 2nd hand: maybe I am just unlucky, but all the purchases of brand new equipment were a complete and utter failure.

At my workplace I usually deal with the purchase of instruments and scientific equipment, maybe I am excessively picky and I am used to a different level of service both from the manufacturers and from the dealers: mistakes do happen, but they are promptly recognized and usually corrected without much effort.

I was considering saving money to upgrade my Ha setup to a Solar Spectrum Solar Observer, but If someone has to fight just to obtain what he paid for, with equipment costing thousands (EUR or USD), the enthusiasm dies out quickly.

Fabio


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by Montana »

Well at least your unit came in a box with foam, both mine arrived in a plain Jiffy bag with no protection at all. No wonder my first had badly aligned optics ;) However I use the CaK diagonal for imaging and it is absolutely wonderful on the TEC140 :)

Alexandra


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by christian viladrich »

Too bad they have such a poor quality control.
I hope it will be soon solved.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by marktownley »

Poor quality control and variance in performance sadly seems all too common in the world of solar filters and etalons...


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I don't know what to think on this. I have always heard Lunt Solar Systems praised for their customer service and " making it right " if something is wrong in delivery or fails for any reason. I myself would prefer ordering a scope directly from Lunt but in Europe that may not be possible. I think it might be a vendor/distubutor ( Bresser? ) issue or maybe a packing/shipping issue. If you were in the US I would tell you to call Lunt directly without going through a distributor but is that possible in the EU? I have no idea. I feel for you. Equipment like this is expensive.

I have heard horror stories about dealing with Meade Instruments if a problem is to be had. I have two Meade Coronados so that has always been of a concern to me. But both my Coronado scopes came well packaged complete with dessicant in sealed packages and double boxed. The optics and etalons were clean and worked as advertised. But would Meade give me trouble if my blocking filters end up rusting? Time will tell.

I did have a missing collimation spring on my Sky-Watcher 12" Dobsonian when I received it. I called Sky-Watcher and got a friendly voice and they had it shipped to me in three days.

A close friend of mine recently bought a Lacerta Wedge to use on his apochromatic refractors from a European distributor. It came with a lot of dust/trash on the prism and was packaged poorly only wrapped in unsealed plastic. In contrast I ordered my Altair wedge from Texas Nautical Supply Company ( Land, Sea and Sky ) in the US and it came sealed and in it's own carrying case. The wedge had spotless optics. My friend was able to clean his wedge up acceptably. I didn't have to.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by Highbury Mark »

Yes - we have to deal with Bresser in Germany if we have any issues with Lunts in Europe. My experience with them has been fine (had to send an LS50 back when that nasty helical focuser seized up), but it takes a little longer than one would hope. Would be nice to have national agents to deal with, but still preferable to getting Coronado support from Meade


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I have always heard Bresser refractors are good.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by Fabio_Imm »

marktownley wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:54 pm Poor quality control and variance in performance sadly seems all too common in the world of solar filters and etalons...
Mark, that is exacly my line!
This is the second wrong replacement unit that I received, packaged in the factory box.
1.PNG
1.PNG (453.02 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
Do not misunderstand me, the mechanical build quality is excellent, it is a really solid piece of equipment.
However, this is what it looked like right out of the box:

Front filter (telescope side)
2.PNG
2.PNG (706.45 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
Internal filter (diagonal side): more dust, a nasty scratch in the middle and smeared swipe streaks all over :shock:
I am no expert, but looking at the edges the internal filter coating doesn't seem too healthy.
3.PNG
3.PNG (940.59 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
Diagonal interior: I wouldn't care about the black anodizing blemish, but there are cloth/paper lints everywhere, even on the mirror.
4.PNG
4.PNG (444.39 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
Blocking filter (eyepiece side): more dust on the interior and exterior
5.PNG
5.PNG (665.47 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
I can only say that a company shipping this junk has some serious quality control issues: this unit should never have left the assembly line.
That filter retails for 2000 EUR, it is simply unacceptable to allow such a bad unit to reach the consumer.

Fabio


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by Fabio_Imm »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:22 am I don't know what to think on this. I have always heard Lunt Solar Systems praised for their customer service and " making it right " if something is wrong in delivery or fails for any reason. I myself would prefer ordering a scope directly from Lunt but in Europe that may not be possible.
[...snip...]
Hi James,
I am well aware that Lunt is a very reputable manufacturer and I know that their client service is top-notch, especially in the US.
Unfortunately in EU we must rely on the distributor: sending equipment overseas for repair, apart from the cost, is a huge pain just for the paperwork and stamps to clear customs (been there, done that).

In my case Bresser's incompetence is preventing me from becoming a Lunt client.
After the second return of the star diagonal unit, they checked the warehouse and discovered that the stocks of merchandise were misplaced: so they actually shipped an unspecified number of higher priced units "by mistake" and I was the only honest idiot that reported the error.
They thanked me and said that currently there aren't any stocks left of the model that I ordered and paid for, but they could order one from Lunt, with 4 months delivery time . :lol:
I applied for a refund.

I am not saying that the manufacturers are sistematically producing instruments that do not work as advertised. They are doing a terrific job in making exotic filters and high-end equipment available to amateurs like us.
I am saying that quality and performace variability is so high that obtaining a unit that works as advertised becomes a lottery.

My point is that there is a common pattern among multiple manufacturers: lack of quality control together with questionable engineering solutions that are solely aimed at (marginally) cutting costs in production e.g. crappy helical focusers instead of a single-speed Crayford or even a basic rack-and-pinion unit.

I have read the horror stories about Meade, and that is one of the reasons preventing me from considering to buy Coronado instruments... the other is the gold finish, but that is a matter of personal taste :D
Yet I do love my Meade 10" LX200 classic that I bought 2nd hand in 1999.
I work in the field of power electronics and electrical drives: over the past years I cared for, repaired and upgraded the electronics of the LX200 and inside it I saw many questionable ways of cutting corners to save a few bucks in production, questionable even by 1990 standards.
I am talking about engineering solutions that one can expect in a low-end washing machine produced in millions of units where shedding every penny of manufacturing cost is justified, not so in one of the first GO-TO computerized telescope.

Apart from quality control in production, another aspect that is commonly neglected is logistics, transportation and storage of delicate equipment:

Are there filters with coatings that can oxidize over time? You are shipping your product worldwide, you do not know how long the unit can stay on a shelf in a warehouse before being sold to the final customer...
Why do not seal the unit in a thick, airtight plastic bag? Why do not add a couple of dessiccant bags inside to mitigate the risk?
Is it really worth to save a few more cents on the packaging of something that retails for thousands of bucks?

Again, if exotic coatings result in shelf-life issues, why do not add a manufacturing date code on the units? I am not talking about individual serial numbers, but tracking of production batches: the bare minimum for quality control in any industry.

Last example, this is an extract from Solar Spectrum specification sheet:

No Fabry-Perot-Solar-Filter must be subjected to “freeze all through”.
The warranty may be void if damages are found to be a result of freezing.
At all times when any H-alpha Filter is not in use, it should be stored in a dry environment within a temperature range
between +4°C to 36°C.
A dry box with including a generous pack of silica gel or zeolite is recommended.


I do not know if these precautions apply also to Daystar's etalons, but it is my understanding that they too are soaked in immersion oil.

When I was still thinking about buying a Solar Spectrum - Solar Observer Ha filter, I asked a few simple questions to another German retailer:
  • Considering bulk shipment from the manufacturer in the USA to EU warehouse: was the aircraft cargo bay heated? i.e. temperature-controlled shipping was arranged for?
  • In case of purchase, what about ground shipping from the EU warehouse to the client during winter time?
  • How is the unit packaged? What is included in the box?
I am still waiting for an answer: they said to be patient while they recovered the information... almost two months have passed.
We are talking about filters with a price tag between 3.5k and 18k EUR, receiving a unit with a void warranty because of transportation issues is not an option.

Fabio

P.S: Just for comparison, at my workplace we recently purchased an instrument in the 20k price range delivered: the unit arrived from overseas in a Pelican trolley packed with dessiccant, shipped inside a crate covered with thermal strips and shock/impact indicator labels.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by marktownley »

That filter is clearly starting to deteriorate Fabio. You did right to get a refund, i've had to do this on occasions too.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I have read the horror stories about Meade, and that is one of the reasons preventing me from considering to buy Coronado instruments... the other is the gold finish, but that is a matter of personal taste
_Fabio

I have always worried about that too. I bought my Coronado scopes mainly because they were much more reasonably priced than their closest Lunt counterparts at the time. They seem to work well and the SMII90 gives top-notch views. As for the color I have always liked the gold finish. In my opinion the SolarMax III line are the prettiest Ha solar telescopes on the market. But as you have said, it is a matter of personal taste.

And I agree with you on the helical focusers. Both of my Coronado SMIIs have them. They work but are not what I would prefer. Yes I would prefer even a single speed rack and pinion over the helical. They corrected that on the SMIII series. Two speed rack and pinion. But at a greater cost.
Are there filters with coatings that can oxidize over time? You are shipping your product worldwide, you do not know how long the unit can stay on a shelf in a warehouse before being sold to the final customer.
_Fabio

I have never understood this. Why do both Lunt and Coronado have issues with blocking filter rust?! For the cost of these filters it simply should not happen. There should be some kind of durable transparent overcoating to protect the coating from rusting. If not the filters should have a fully transferable lifetime guarantee. Period!!


You have brought some really good points up here.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by marktownley »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:23 am I have never understood this. Why do both Lunt and Coronado have issues with blocking filter rust?! For the cost of these filters it simply should not happen. There should be some kind of durable transparent overcoating to protect the coating from rusting. If not the filters should have a fully transferable lifetime guarantee. Period!!
They rust because they are soft coated filters, if they were hard coated filters, which would not rust, would add another 1-2K on the cost. Touch wood on all of mine it is not the ultra narrow band blocker itself that rusts, it's the pre filter in front of it, I guess because it takes a thermal load.


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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by DeepSolar64 »

marktownley wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:03 pm
DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:23 am I have never understood this. Why do both Lunt and Coronado have issues with blocking filter rust?! For the cost of these filters it simply should not happen. There should be some kind of durable transparent overcoating to protect the coating from rusting. If not the filters should have a fully transferable lifetime guarantee. Period!!
They rust because they are soft coated filters, if they were hard coated filters, which would not rust, would add another 1-2K on the cost. Touch wood on all of mine it is not the ultra narrow band blocker itself that rusts, it's the pre filter in front of it, I guess because it takes a thermal load.
So there is no cheap easy fix except to clean it if possible or replace the pre filter? That's a huge price difference between soft and hard coated filters. I never would have thought that.


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Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
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Re: Adventures in buying a Ca-K filter

Post by christian viladrich »

As a comparison, the Alluxa Ca K filter 393.44-0.37 nm is hardcoated and costs about 2800 USD. Peak transmission is > 80%.
Cost would be a bit higher for a 0.2 or 0.15 nm FWHM filter. The main problem for the manufacturer is to control the CWL.


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