First Ha Solar Image

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First Ha Solar Image

Post by Christopher »

I finally performed my first Ha solar image using data from 1/28 - it seems this was a popular date with a lot of imagers on this forum. There were some nice proms and clear skies. The image below is both my first data capture and first processing attempt. I used a PGR Grasshopper 3 (IMX174) through a Lunt 100THa/B1800. I forgot to re-tune the scope when I switched from prom to surface details so they are more muted than they should be. Feels good to get the first one behind me! Image capture details below. Comments and suggestions welcome.
1/28/2018 H-alpha Lunt 100THa/B1800 PGR Grasshopper 3
1/28/2018 H-alpha Lunt 100THa/B1800 PGR Grasshopper 3
Sun_Ha_140945_PS v1 copy.jpg (1.36 MiB) Viewed 3663 times
Prominence Details
FireCapture v2.5 Settings
------------------------------------
Camera=Grasshopper3 GS3-U3-23S6M
Filter=L
Profile=Sun_Ha
Filename=Sun_Ha_140340.ser
Date=280118
Start=140155.447
Mid=140340.682
End=140525.918
Start(UT)=190155.447
Mid(UT)=190340.682
End(UT)=190525.918
Duration=210.471s
Date_format=ddMMyy
Time_format=HHmmss
LT=UT -5h
Frames captured=1664
File type=SER
Binning=no
ROI=1920x1200
ROI(Offset)=0x0
FPS (avg.)=7
Shutter=2.919ms
Gain=2025 (67%)
Exposure=112
Mode7=off
Sharpness=1024
FPS=163.31 (off)
AutoExposure=off
Brightness=327
Gamma=1929
AutoHisto=75 (off)
SoftwareGain=10 (off)
Histogramm(min)=880
Histogramm(max)=4088
Histogramm=99%
Noise(avg.deviation)=n/a
Limit=none
Sensor temperature=33.6 °C
dimensions: 1920 x 1200
frames: 1664
pixel depth: 16 bit/pixel
PGR Grasshopper3 GS3-U3-23S6M
temp: 33.60 C
fps: 9.08
gain: 19.99
exp: 2.92 ms
gamma: 1929.00

Surface Details
FireCapture v2.5 Settings
------------------------------------
Camera=Grasshopper3 GS3-U3-23S6M
Filter=L
Profile=Sun_Ha
Filename=Sun_Ha_140340.ser
Date=280118
Start=140155.447
Mid=140340.682
End=140525.918
Start(UT)=190155.447
Mid(UT)=190340.682
End(UT)=190525.918
Duration=210.471s
Date_format=ddMMyy
Time_format=HHmmss
LT=UT -5h
Frames captured=1664
File type=SER
Binning=no
ROI=1920x1200
ROI(Offset)=0x0
FPS (avg.)=7
Shutter=2.919ms
Gain=2025 (67%)
Exposure=112
Mode7=off
Sharpness=1024
FPS=163.31 (off)
AutoExposure=off
Brightness=327
Gamma=1929
AutoHisto=75 (off)
SoftwareGain=10 (off)
Histogramm(min)=880
Histogramm(max)=4088
Histogramm=99%
Noise(avg.deviation)=n/a
Limit=none
Sensor temperature=33.6 °C
dimensions: 1920 x 1200
frames: 1664
pixel depth: 16 bit/pixel
PGR Grasshopper3 GS3-U3-23S6M
temp: 33.60 C
fps: 9.08
gain: 19.99
exp: 2.92 ms
gamma: 1929.00


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by marktownley »

It's a great image Christopher, well done!


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Carbon60 »

An excellent first image, Christopher.

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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by pedro »

well done Cristopher, great first image


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Christopher, we use the same camera. You should be able to get a much higher fps. 1600 images should take around 10 - 15 seconds. Maybe it has something to do with your computer or laptop? Has it got USB3?
You used a level of gain and gamma much higher than I normally do. Plus I don't take Sers but Avi's. Mode 7 is on when I image. Can't remember (have not seen the sun for months) if I choose 16 bits. Don't think so. Good luck! Bart.
Last edited by bart1805 on Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by eroel »

Christopher:
Very good image.
Best regards and have a nice and sunny weekend.
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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by ffellah »

Very nice first image, Christopher !

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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by torsinadoc »

Very nice image.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Christopher »

Thank you all for the feedback and encouragement.

Bart,

"Maybe it has something to do with your computer or laptop? Has it got USB3?"

I am working with a brand new mid-level gaming laptop with dedicated video card/memory and SSD along with USB3. PC won't be the issue. But I have noticed that there is something that constrains the FPS (other than exposure). Perhaps there's a setting in Firecapture constraining it?

"You used a level of gain and gamma much higher than I normally do. Plus I don't take Sers but Avi's. Mode 7 is on when I image. Can't remember (have not seen the sun for months) if I choose 16 bits. Don't think so."

Thanks for the advice on gain and gamma. I will try to lower these. Firecapture defaults to SER if you capture in 16bit. I actually had some of each (SER at 16 and AVI at 8 bit) and didn't notice a difference in performance or processing after the fact.

Regards,


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Christopher,
You are right, SER gives by default 16 bit. The camera has a 10 / 12 bit ADC.
You could try this, just attach the camera to the laptop when it is on your desk.
Mode 7 on
AVI
A smaller ROI should also give a faster framerate.
And see what fps you are able to record.

Another question. When you were imaging and changed the Gamma setting, did you notice a change in the image on screen? If not I could mail you a small file Torsten send me. One way or the other the camera automatically recorded in RAW format, and in RAW you can't control Gamma. You could also test this with the camera on your desk.
I notice you have a 99% histogram, maybe try to actieve around 75%.
Note that I am not an expert, just struggling like you. (-;
Good luck, Bart.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by PDB »

Hi
You are right, SER gives by default 16 bit. The camera has a 10 / 12 bit ADC.
In fact it's just the opposite. If you enable 16bit capture, you need to record in SER because there is only 8bit AVI (or 3x8 for color) 16bit AVI does not exist.

Mode 7 on will enable the 12 bit ADC so Bart is right, if you record in 16 bit, it should be on. see https://www.ptgrey.com/support/downloads/10304 (check the entries for GS3-U3-23S6M)

The frame-rate is extremely low. Looks like USB2 speed. Does the frame rate change when recording, or if not recording does FC indicate the same low framerate. If frame rate is low while not in recording mode it is either the camera or the USB connection. If the framerate drops it is your disc that is not fast enough.

Anyway, nice image. (wish we had some sun ...)

Regards,

Paul


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

You are right Paul it is indeed like you describe. But if a camera has a 12 bit ADC it does not seem logical to record in 16 bit. Or am I missing something?


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by PDB »

Well, dynamic range will be higher. I don't know how PGR handles it, but usually the 12 bit are shifted towards the high end. So you have 12 meaningfull bits which is still more than 8.
There are lots of discussions if it is meaningfull or not to record in 16 bit. For nice images probably not, can be done in 8 bit as well. (And monitors can't show 16 bit graylevels anyway) One advantage can be is that from 1 video you can generate 2 images with different post-processing: 1 with proms and 1 with surface detail and combine these.

Regards,

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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by robert »

Nice disk
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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Montana »

Wow!! what a first disc! beautiful clarity and detail in the proms :hamster: :bow
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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Christopher »

Thanks Robert and Alexandra. Alexandra, I found your tutorial on image capture very informative. I used it to mentally rehearse the sequence. Thanks for sharing it!

Bart,
Did some desktop imaging as you suggested. First discovery (keep in mind, new laptop here) is that USB2 and USB3 look identical. I had the camera connected to USB 2 first time out. FPS rates on USB3 as follows:
16 bit - 85FPS
8 bit mode 0 - 168FPS
Mode 7 - 128FPS
That's more like it!!
As for gamma changes affecting the preview, I can't detect them on either preview screen or histogram keeping in mind that the camera is connected but I've got it capped. Not sure how to interpret that. Do I need a patch or more testing?


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Christopher, nice that is a huge improvement! If you have the camera on your desk, cap off. And then change the Gamma, from as low as you can to as high as you can. Then any change in the histogram? If not I will look later today for the patch. Bart.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by PDB »

Hi,

any idea where PGR actually applies gamma? If it is in hardware, it might give some results. if it is a software function in the driver (like most cameras) then you should NOT use it and keep gamma neutral (linear). If not you just loos information in the data that you can never recover afterwards. That same gamma function (software based) can be done in postprocessing, and you will have much more possibilities.

Paul


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Paul, don't know whether it is software or hardware based, assume it is software based. I use it mainly when I am focussing. So low Gamma. When imaging I return close to the neutral position. Bart.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Derek Klepp »

Looks good.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Christopher »

Thanks Derek,

Bart,
No change in the histogram capped or uncapped.
Thanks,


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Well. The good thing is that you have Gamma in the neutral position. (-;
If you PM me I will send you the email conversation with Torsten and the patch.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Christopher »

Bart,
I installed the replacement dll file. It did exactly what you described - it enables the Gamma adjustment in the preview image. Unfortunately it also cuts the FPS nearly in half from about 168 to 87fps. To confirm I copied to the old dll back and it immediately boosted the fps back to 168. I gather from the communication with Torsten that it's changing the default camera mode between RAW and mono (old vs. new dll respectively). Is that correct? If so, it looks like mono is a slower mode than RAW. Also of note, with the old dll, as I mentioned before there is a change in fps from 168 to 128 when switching from Mode 0 to Mode 7. With the new dll no such change occurs - it remains steady at 87fps. At this point I suppose the question is for both Mode 7 and Gamma adjustment are they worth the trade off in fps?


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Christopher,
Yes that is correct. RAW is faster than mono. But with less quality. Mode 7 off is faster than mode 7 on, but with less quality. Interesting question. What if you can stack more images because you use RAW and Mode 0. Better or worse than less images but each image is of a better quality?
For me it is not a big deal. I normally don't image using the complete sensor, but a ROI. The fps is already really high with Mono and mode7 on. I have a bigger problem with the enormous amount of data that wants to jump on the relatively small SSD. But tempting to try it out whenever the sun decides to show itself again....
@Paul, here is more how Gamma is applied in the PGR / FLIR camera's:
https://www.ptgrey.com/KB/10282


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Ewan »

Firstly well done Christopher on your 1st FD capture.

I have a PG IMX174 but don't 'get on' with FC so I use Genika Astro which is very straightforward.
I think my USB3 ports has SS next to the port so you know which is which, worth a look.
From what I have read SER files are preferable over AVI as is 16Bit over 8, you cant add what you don't capture.

In Genika at full res, 1900 x 1200, in 16Bit I get 83Fps, 10 seconds @ 6Ms is 827 frames, 8Bit I get 87Fps, 10 seconds @ 6Ms is 872.
In RAW mode though I then got 16Bit = 829 but 8Bit gave 1630. All in MODE 0
MODE 7 16Bit = 818 Frames 8Bit = 1278.

Not sure if any of that helps but could show you what to expect.

Atb
Ewan

PS as a side note @ 800 x 600 ROI using 3Ms, 10 second capture in RAW was 3173 frames (MODE 7 was 2489) AND RAW OFF was 3168 (MODE 7 was 2485)


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Ewan,
FC works for me, as does Genika. But Genika misses some features. If I want to make an animation I set the fps at about 40 fps. Otherwise the SSD explodes in a short time. As far as I know I can't control the fps in Genika.
The PGR IMX174 has a 10/12 bit ADC. So it seems that you can't take 16 bit images. Or am I wrong?
Clear skies, Bart.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Ewan »

bart1805 wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:09 pm Hi Ewan,
FC works for me, as does Genika. But Genika misses some features. If I want to make an animation I set the fps at about 40 fps. Otherwise the SSD explodes in a short time. As far as I know I can't control the fps in Genika.
The PGR IMX174 has a 10/12 bit ADC. So it seems that you can't take 16 bit images. Or am I wrong?
Clear skies, Bart.
Your quite correct Bart RE 12Bit ADC (although I just checked & Astrograph advertises it as 14Bit ADC ?) & on the FLIR website there is a knowledge base article that explains how you can acquire 16Bit data by putting the camera into 16 bpp mode, something I will have to read up on. So strictly speaking my captures are 12Bit Doh ;-)

Yes FC does have a lot of controls etc which was one reason I moved away from it, just not required for what I do as Genika is more than capable.
What size SSD do you have ? my 1TB has only ever nearly filled up once as I was doing a long animation, other than that it is the best upgrade choice I made.

Atb
Ewan


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Ewan,
It is a bit strange. When you look at the datasheet PGR ? Flir say it like this:
ADC: 14-bit (10-bit GS3-U3-41C6,10- and 12-bit GS3-U3-23S6,GS3-U3-32S4,GS3-U3-51S5,GS3-U3-89S6,GS3-U3-123S6)
VideoData Output: 8, 12, 16 and 24-bit digital data
https://www.ptgrey.com/support/downloads/10146
So, I am a bit lost here. And I must say that this is a bit out of my league. I will just test it in the field and try to find out which setting is the best for me. By the way, in the same data sheet you can see the difference between Mode 7 and Mode 0

It is 256 GB, and it is the only harddrive in the laptop. It gets worse. I borrow the laptop from the love of my life, so about 150 GB is allready taken. A new laptop (and one solely for Astro imaging is the next project....
Clear Skies! Bart.

ps.
Maybe this is the start of the answer:
The Grasshopper3 U3's ADC is configured to a fixed bit output. If the pixel format selected has fewer bits per pixel than the ADC output, the least significant bits are dropped. If the pixel format selected has greater bits per pixel than the ADC output, the least significant bits are padded and can be discarded by the user. Image data is left- aligned across a 2-byte format.
https://www.ptgrey.com/support/downloads/10125

Most of the GS3 models are 14 bit. The one we have is a 10 / 12 bit. 12 bit in Mode 7, 10 bit in Mode 0. But the information on the Flir site is not consistent. Sometimes this camera is referred to as having a 10 bit ADC.


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Ewan »

Don't want to hijack Christopher's 1st FD image any longer surfice to say I will have to do more reading but I can also say when the data is loaded into AS!2 it is detected as 16Bit as well, Flir do make it sound like 16Bit captures are possible with this camera but not clearly ;-)

Bart take a look on CEX sometime as I have seen the same drive as my EVO on there for peanuts so much so I may have to get one for the desktop.

PS Christopher I am looking forward to seeing how your imaging comes along & you getting the most from your gear, well done so far though.

Atb
Ewan


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by Christopher »

No worries gentlemen. Excellent discourse on this very capable camera and its features and specifications relative to the capture software. Now, any advice on cloud-shifters? :lol:


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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Christopher...

Well done for a first image!!!

You have a great solar setup with the solar scope/camera combo.

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Re: First Ha Solar Image

Post by bart1805 »

Hi Christopher, a few more things after some reading.
Set Brightness to zero. In your example you have got it at 327, your histogram is to far to the right with that setting.
I though that when you disabled Gamma, it would be by default in the neutral position. As far as I understand now it is not. From the PGR site:
Gamma values between 0.5 and 1 result in decreased brightness effect, while values between 1 and 4 produce an increased brightness effect. By default, Gamma is enabled and has a value of 1.25. To obtain a linear response, disable gamma.
So if I understand it correctly Gamma is neutral when it is 1. It corresponds with about 1.000 in Firecapture.
Good luck! Bart.


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