blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

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blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:58 pm

Hello all.

As you know , i have dabbled in some very serious custom filter production for the sake of doing it. Just to see what happens, regardless of loss. regardless of quality, regardless of what is mainstream and regardless of being right or wrong . Hard coated, soft coated, glass material; DOES NOT matter here and Thermal drift just does not matter.

So here, may we have a realistic friendly chat about blocking filters, and a actual real life approach to improving our systems at the eyepiece. This is absolutley, without a doubt entirely possible. With 10 billion percent certainty, using two blocking filters.


Currently, everyone on this forum is using a blocking filter that is anywhere from 10 angstroms, to 5 angstroms wide.
There are not many "spectral plots" of these filters, and quite literally every single one is different. There is no industrial standard; there is only an "acceptable range tolerance". If you are one of the unlucky, this tolerance can hurt your ego big time.



This acceptable tolerance error applies to all narrowband optical filters, because the manufacture is forced to obtain wavelength profile of +0.1 or -0.1 due to the nature of errors in machines, liquids, metals, glasses, flatness; heat, cold-humidity; the angle of venus reflecting off the ocean during high tide with a full moon at midnight :roll: just make any excuse for causing any errors and its accepted as +1 or -1..

The only way around these errors, is to use human intervention; and literally reject all pieces you dislike and toss tens of thousands of dollars of glass in the trash.

Tossing errors in the trash is how its done to ensure quality control, and this is not an exaggerated belief.



Okay,; lets get back to earth. My ignorance aside, my lack of knowledge, my straightforward attitude and whatever you want to say about my thoughts just please keep this conversation level headed.


In my methodology there is no right or wrong, there is no better or best. There is only "wow thats working"; "okay that did not work" and "thank you for your help"

I would like no arguing here please and yes, OCD is totally invited. we can all work together equally and respect each other. All of our opinion's add up to something real, and helpful. Community based knowledge and support.



So now lets look at a REAL scan, of a 0.3nm"hydrogen alpha blocking filter" I had custom developed. This filter is considered "two-cavity" like the one in your lunt or coronado. This particular filter is centered at 656.35nm due to tolerance error.
3a 0.35.jpg
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Our next scan is a single cavity 0.1nm "hydrogen alpha filter" , I have several of these filters. I picked this scan because the "tolerance error" closely matched the above wavelength. This one is centered at 656.36nm.
1a 0.36.JPG
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The single cavity filter profile, is very narrow and spike shaped compared to the dome shape of the two cavity filter. It has a wing profile similar to a hydrogen alpha etalon.


In this next image, i overlay the two graphs. Not perfect, but managed to make it close enough; It is slightly skewed due to one being a .pdf file sent directly from andover, and the other being a picutre i took with a camera. Just ignore that, and pay close attention to what happens.

Look how much side band transmission is removed by the 1 angstrom filter compared to the 3 angstrom filter. You guys are using 5 to 10 angstroms, so the graph profile would be much much wider.
overlay 1a-3a.jpg
overlay 1a-3a.jpg (107.13 KiB) Viewed 481 times


This is a real world paper example of a real filter that I had developed; I have them sitting here, they do exist and anybody can get these anytime they want them.
So where Do i go from here? Constructively, lets build a pseudo etalon at the etepiece.

stacking two of the 1 angstrom filters of course, will do something.



So here , I have two single cavity filters matches. The wavelength is set at 656.36 on both of these 0.1nm filters.
image0.jpeg
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image6.jpeg
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We can see here, the filters are nearly identical.
Image








So what happens when you stack two? Each filter has a transmission of 42%. So we can divde 42 by 0.42 and get 17.

Stacked, the filters would be 17% transmission at the eyepiece;
So I dragged one profile down to 17% and made an overlay to visualize this. This is not an accurate method, just a quick visual.
17 percent.jpg
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Now all that transmission on the wings is obliterated, for just $500.00.


I would now like your thoughts please. Yes hardcoated filters would make the transmission skyrocket and are extremely desirable. But that variable turns this $400.00 eyepiece into a $4000.00 eyepiece.

Is owning a $4000.00 hardcoated filter really going to change your life 20 years from now, or can this $500 filter stack which only has a life of 5 years bring you the immediate imaging satisfaction for 1/4 the cost?


Those part numbers are real. You can order them from andover any time using my name, . i have even tested these with my own eyeballs.

1 filter alone indeed produces a slight improvement over a standard blocking filter; especially near the limb. It is not super dramatic, but it does add extra definition to the fibrils; They become thin like hair and no longer bushy. I am 10 billion percent certain that two of these filters will completely kill the offband chromosphere double image everyone is so fascinated with removing.

I will let you guys use math, science, phds and whatever personal preference to tell me i am wrong. But remember, i have these filters sitting here right in front of me and I can post real world images of it actually working.

Want to work as a team? Some users on this forum got one of my filters free of charge as a gift from me; just to see what happens.



Transmission too low? Softcoated? Biased by brandname? Your camera does not care and photoshop certainly does not either.

I enjoy sharing my mind , and I am extremely interested in yours!!
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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:59 pm

I have attempted to make a more accurate graph of the double stacked blockers. Not 100% accurate, but it gives a better impression of what is happening when you divide all the transmission lines by their respective clone amount.
plot.jpg
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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:32 pm

I now have a method of boosting the transmission on two of these filters , and am attempting to get a sample made.

Blocking filters are constructed of a coated bk7 or fused silica plate, cemented to an rg630 plate.


By removing the rg630 plate, a redundant piece of glass would be eliminated from the system; the blocking filter would then function on its own with your standard hydrogen alpha ERF which is already used on every etalon. i.e baader planetarium D-erf.

I have requested a new run on of these filters with the rg630 removed, and will be getting 10 more.

attached is a photo of how the coated plate, is cemented to rg630. There is zero reason for the rg630 to be used in a blocking filter.

Lunt, and coronado blocking filters are constructed the same way. two sheets of glass cemented together.
001.JPG
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002.JPG
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003.JPG
003.JPG (62.43 KiB) Viewed 439 times



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by Montana » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:13 pm

Thanks :) What would happen if you used just one of these filters combined with your regular blocking filter, would this reduce the out of band stray light?

Alexandra



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by MalVeauX » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:59 pm

I look forward to the results! My weather is not cooperating, but I will attempt to stack a 1.7A with a standard 6A to see how that effects things, I have plenty of transmission to spare. I will report when my clouds go away!

Very best,



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by marktownley » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:00 pm

Thanks JAPP for your detailed post.

I know we've talked previously about the differences in Coronado blocking filters, all of mine are different. I've had some interesting initial results using a quark running at <f15 that gives an interesting increase in contrast when used with another eg front mounted etalon so I can see how your blocking filter design would be beneficial.

What is the clear diameter of these? They look 7-8mm i'm guessing?

Looking at the plots, I assume a bit of tilt to bring them blue would be beneficial too?

Mark


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:48 pm

marktownley wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:00 pm
Thanks JAPP for your detailed post.

I know we've talked previously about the differences in Coronado blocking filters, all of mine are different. I've had some interesting initial results using a quark running at <f15 that gives an interesting increase in contrast when used with another eg front mounted etalon so I can see how your blocking filter design would be beneficial.

What is the clear diameter of these? They look 7-8mm i'm guessing?

Looking at the plots, I assume a bit of tilt to bring them blue would be beneficial too?

Mark
Yes these are 8mm CA, but I may have the next batch sized to 16mm. It is a little more expensive, but also most desirable in the end.

tilting the reject control by 1.5degrees does bring it on band and I have confirmed this with my contact at andover ; there is slight bandwidth increase of ~.02nm which is okay by me.

However, for absolute reliable operation of this procedure; the filter closest to the camera should be hand picked at either 656.27, 656.28, or 656.29 and un-tilted. This is relied on as the "primary peak control" ensuring that the camera always operates the h-alpha core with max transmission. This is where things become limited.

The reject control filter, which would be placed before the primary control; one of these "reject controls";. Tilted 1.5 degrees would allow it to operate reflection free; and enable a blue-shifted peak back to 656.28. It is called the reject control because the filters are too off-band to be consider a primary peak control; but still narrow enough to allow useful rejection of offband peaks

Tilting them is easy with a spacer insert and I have this ability with "fixed angle shims".

As Martin has stated, although the filters are sold to me and marked as 0.1nm; they are indeed measured at 1.7 angstroms fwhm. I do not believe anybody has the technology capability to make a true 1.0 angstrom filter out of a single piece of glass. However, when you operate one filter at f/32 or greater it follows the same laws of an etalon as documented by Christian Viladrich. Thus bringing it closer to the 1.0fwhm goal.



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by Valery » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:23 am

Been there, done this - several years ago with exactly the same Andover, but with 12.5mm filters - of the same size as front BF in a standard Quark.
Tried with Quarks. No gain at all, just makes a picture much dimmer and much less uniform than in original Quarks.
These filters were constructed for F/5 incoming light cone - to make them useable in Quarks installed in F/5-F/6 small refractors.

Better to spend money and efforts for coupling of the PST etalon with Quarks which I did then with a full success. For the same $500 I get a bandwidth of less than 0,25A double staked - with a very steep skirt of the tansmission curve. See attached picture how the dark filament is seen through such a DS system in a C11 telescope with a front mounted ARIES DERF.
Attachments
_2017 07 20 UT06h50m C11+ARIES DERF+DS QUARK + PST.png
_2017 07 20 UT06h50m C11+ARIES DERF+DS QUARK + PST.png (1.06 MiB) Viewed 370 times
Last edited by Valery on Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:25 pm

Valery wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:23 am
Been there, done this - several years ago with exactly the same Andover, but with 12.5mm filters - of the same size as front BF in a standard Quark.
Tried with Quarks. No gain at all, just makes a picture much dimmer and much less uniform than in original Quarks.
These filters were constructed for F/5 incoming light cone - to make them useable in Quarks installed in F/5-F/6 small refractors.

Better to spend money and efforts for coupling of the PST etalon with Quarks which I did then with a fucc success. For the same $500 I get a bandwidth of less than 0,25A double staked - with a very steep skirt of the tansmission curve. See attached picture how the dark filament is seen through such a DS system in a C11 telescope with a front mounted ARIES DERF.
valery; welcome to this conversation. the single cavity filter is not something sold in single pieces and it was entirely custom produced for me. These filters were never sold on any website, and you can only get them by special request.

After purchased from andover, they supply an identical spectral gram to the one supplied to me; it is supplied to all customers.
Post an image of the one supplied to you.

I also have the uniformity plot, and so should you. If you want to help this situation, you need to post this data.
Post the uniformity plot supplied to you.


If you cannot provide us this information supplied with your filters, then we cannot accept your claims.



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by christian viladrich » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:31 pm

Hello,
Years ago, I tested a Thousand Oaks 0.9 A as a complemetary filter with my DayStar 0.6A.
The "classic" Ha 0.9 A filter from TO was a stack etalon + various ITF/BF filters.
TO sent me the etalon part of it (i.e. without any additional filter).

The result was very interesting (left DayStar PE 0.6 A, right DayStar PE 0.6 + TO 0.9 A):

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... TO09-a.jpg

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... TO09-b.jpg

The 0.6 A + 0.9 A combination (right) gave similar results as the Ion 0.3 A(left) :

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... TO09-a.jpg

Still, the main issue was the non uniformity of the TO 0.9A, and some banding due to the distance between CWL and Ha.
More info here:
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... rast-2.htm

Andover filters are for sure more uniform and more up to the specs.

Having a 0.9A to 1.5 A etalon stacked on a "main" etalon is certainly a good idea. A 1.5 A + 0.6A combination results in a selectivity similar to a 0.3 simple stack etalon.


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by marktownley » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:51 pm

Different ways to achieve similar things in some respects!


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:57 pm

christian viladrich wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:31 pm


Having a 0.9A to 1.5 A etalon stacked on a "main" etalon is certainly a good idea. A 1.5 A + 0.6A combination results in a selectivity similar to a 0.3 simple stack etalon.

Hello Christian and thank you for joining in on this conversation, everyone on this forum values your contributions; I will ship you one of these filters free of charge if you would like it. Just private message me your shipping address and i will send it out. Pick any one of the serial numbers from the spec sheets above and its yours to do what ever you would like with it; no strings attached and I ask for nothing in return.

Thank you!



i am currently still finalizing a calcium filter assembly so this will be my priority for a couple more weeks . I will start doing an h-alpha operation next and post images with these filters soon.



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by marktownley » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:31 pm

Hey there Japp.

More questions from me; when Andover test these filters and produce the transmission curves above, what kind of beam is this done in? Converging, collimated or telecentric?

Thanks in advance.

Mark


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by MalVeauX » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:38 pm

Hello,

I'm trying to assemble a unit currently.

Do you think a 1.7A filter and a standard Coronado BF 5~6A filter will do this? Or does it need to be both filters near 1.7~1A after tilt?

I'm trying to currently assemble an ITF (maier I think), 1.7A filter in a tilt chamber of a sky bender, followed by a 5mm or 10mm typical Coronado blocking filter. If I can get this to assemble and work, I will have it follow a PST etalon in an imaging train.

My current challenge is being able to mount the 1.7A filter in the sky bender and have room to tilt.
DoubleBFBuild.jpg
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Very best,



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by Valery » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:23 pm

Here the profiles of two Andover 12.5mm 0.1nm filters designed to work with F/5 telescopes (include both my SW F/5 100mm and 150mm.
Attachments
ANDOVER  #2.png
ANDOVER #2.png (1.15 MiB) Viewed 288 times
ANDOVER  #1.png
ANDOVER #1.png (1.1 MiB) Viewed 288 times


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:20 pm

Montana wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:13 pm
Thanks :) What would happen if you used just one of these filters combined with your regular blocking filter, would this reduce the out of band stray light?

Alexandra
I am not certain; the maier filter has a transmission of 60%, and while it does block IR and UV; i am thinking it may be marginal.

I had my filter mounts custom made, there really are no options of getting these tiny filters to work with off the shelf stuff
i really cannot direct you to any viable parts online; the optic mount on the pst stuff is not standard either. I also had that RAF camera adapter custom made and you were one of the lucky few to get one.

in response to Alexandra, your idea of using the coronado blocking filter with this; I believe the andover filter becomes the only peak factor and the coronado filter would operate only as an ITF. But I can test this to see what happens.

My instincts are telling me two of these Andover filters are going to be a requirement, along with a baader planetarium 35nm h-alpha filter kg3 combo.
This is the Beloptik ITF .



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:31 pm

Valery wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:23 pm
Here the profiles of two Andover 12.5mm 0.1nm filters designed to work with F/5 telescopes (include both my SW F/5 100mm and 150mm.
Thank you for posting this Valery! :bow

These two filters seem very far off band and suspect this to be reason for the negative experience using them.
I see they are also exactly 1.0 angstroms: could you tell me how you requested these filters to be constructed; It would be helpful information in the next batch i order to ensure the best possible outcome.

Were these filters laminated to the RG630 like the ones I purchased?

Your information has confirmed that all of our blocking filters are random wavelengths, and I understand why you feel this is not a good idea.

I would have returned both of these filters because they do not fall into the proper tolerance of what I ordered.

Thank you again. If you have any additive suggestions here, i will listen politely.



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:51 pm

MalVeauX wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:38 pm
Hello,

I'm trying to assemble a unit currently.

Do you think a 1.7A filter and a standard Coronado BF 5~6A filter will do this? Or does it need to be both filters near 1.7~1A after tilt?

I'm trying to currently assemble an ITF (maier I think), 1.7A filter in a tilt chamber of a sky bender, followed by a 5mm or 10mm typical Coronado blocking filter. If I can get this to assemble and work, I will have it follow a PST etalon in an imaging train.

My current challenge is being able to mount the 1.7A filter in the sky bender and have room to tilt.

DoubleBFBuild.jpg

Very best,
(edit) I just noticed your skybender is already 1.25" . You can try putting a retainer ring inside the tilt adapter and see if there is enough room to hold the filter assembly outside of the one its currently mounted it. Take it apart, the filter is secured well and will not fall out.

MArty: you are going to need a 48mm to 28mm thread adapter to convert your 2" tilt to a 1.25",

drop the filter ontop of this, and hold it in with a second retainer ring.

The filter holder i designed will fit in any 1.25" filter cell, but it has to be tall enough to hold an 8mm filter thickness. Perhaps a 10mm blue fireball adapter..

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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:15 am

Marting : the two filter parts would fit in this blue fireball adapter to shorten its filter cell.

Just hold them in there with a standard 1.25' retaining ring from a color filter
https://agenaastro.com/blue-fireball-1- ... nsion.html



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by Stardust5858 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:14 pm

I'm considering buy Lunt Cak module and currently own a baader k-line filter. I gather from other post's that the two can be used together for better contrast. I'm considering the straight through module. How does one go about putting the two together. Are the original Lunt interference filter replaced with the baader? Appreciate any advice.


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by marktownley » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:21 pm

Stardust5858 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:14 pm
I'm considering buy Lunt Cak module and currently own a baader k-line filter. I gather from other post's that the two can be used together for better contrast. I'm considering the straight through module. How does one go about putting the two together. Are the original Lunt interference filter replaced with the baader? Appreciate any advice.
My honest advice - hone your skill with capture and post processing first. Just adding a Baader K-line to a Lunt blocker isn't going to do a lot really. Walk before you try to run!


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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by MalVeauX » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:42 am

justapictureposter wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:15 am
Marting : the two filter parts would fit in this blue fireball adapter to shorten its filter cell.

Just hold them in there with a standard 1.25' retaining ring from a color filter
https://agenaastro.com/blue-fireball-1- ... nsion.html
I'll order this and give it a shot!

Very best,



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by Valery » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:57 am

justapictureposter wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:31 pm

These two filters seem very far off band and suspect this to be reason for the negative experience using them.
These filters were designed for F/5 cone and they stay on band in both my SW F/5 refractors.

I will try them again with more transparent Quark. Hope they will work better in a such combination.


However I still prefer a PST etalon installed right before the Quark etalon. I already showed the picture of how they do work together. Here can be seen more - a comparision of how the sun seen through such a double stack installed in C11 telescope equipped with a full size ARIES DERF vs how the sun is seen through IBIS imaging spectrograph on the Dunn Solar Telescope.


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"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.

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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by justapictureposter » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:39 pm

Valery wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:57 am
justapictureposter wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:31 pm

These two filters seem very far off band and suspect this to be reason for the negative experience using them.
These filters were designed for F/5 cone and they stay on band in both my SW F/5 refractors.

I will try them again with more transparent Quark. Hope they will work better in a such combination.


However I still prefer a PST etalon installed right before the Quark etalon. I already showed the picture of how they do work together. Here can be seen more - a comparision of how the sun seen through such a double stack installed in C11 telescope equipped with a full size ARIES DERF vs how the sun is seen through IBIS imaging spectrograph on the Dunn Solar Telescope.


Valery
Valery your system with the quark and pst is quite remarkable- world class!
, the older pre-meade etalon you have is well known to be lower than .5 angstrom and quite rare. Almost all quarks are also lower than .5 angstrom, and you put alot of effort into obtaining such a good sample. So there really is nothing else to improve in your current setup, using any other filters.

Using the aries d-erf is extremely awesome to everyone and I really do wish we all could have them, but its cost combined with a good rear mounted etalon like a solar spectrum and C11; has limited its popularity; many people in the world simply do not get enough sun for this kind of investment.


The goal with these andover filters , is to remove the Chromospheic double limb that bob yoesle has retroactively made everyone aware of over the years which is removed by a multi-thousand dollar double stack, on simple systems without that secondary etalon.

If we can remove the double limb for just $500 using a blocking filter at the eyepiece, we would have a successful update to the majority of h-alpha users.

Would you be willing to perform a test on the solar limb using just your Pst etalon?

If your andover filters remove the double limb from the pst etalon, than it conclusively has a constructive effect.




Mark: I have just sent an email to find out exactly how these are tested.



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Re: blocking filter chit chat chop chop - lets cut it out.

Post by Valery » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:45 pm

justapictureposter wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:39 pm

Using the aries d-erf is extremely awesome to everyone and I really do wish we all could have them, but its cost combined with a good rear mounted etalon like a solar spectrum and C11;


Would you be willing to perform a test on the solar limb using just your Pst etalon?

If your andover filters remove the double limb from the pst etalon, than it conclusively has a constructive effect.
1. All my achievements in the sun Ha imaging were done with PST etalons and with Quarks. So, even such modest etalons can work quite effectively with larger SCT and DERF. Effectively enough to justify a DERF and SCT purchase.

2. I don't have that PST etalon anylonger.


Valery


"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.

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