Point Grey Research cameras in the UK

[robert]

http://store.clearviewimaging.co.uk/

might be useful?
Robert

[Montana]

Oooo that's interesting! have you registered to see the prices yet?

Alexandra

[robert]

Oooo that's interesting! have you registered to see the prices yet?

Alexandra

No but last year the Chameleon was £254 plus Vat
Robert

[marktownley]

Cheers Robert.

I've just registered. Chameleon is £255 This year +VAT

There's lots of interesting toys on that website! Dohhhhh!!!!!

[solarchat]

Mark!, I tried to give you that camera a couple months ago... Haven't heard much from the guy who got it either..

[marktownley]

I know Stephen, I don't actually need one, the problem is when I look on websites like the one above i'm like a kid in a sweet store and 'want' lots from it

If anyone else wants to know any of the other prices let me know and will find them out for you, though, tbh, it does only take a few seconds to register - they only want a name and email.

[Montana]

I've no money, but I would love to know the cost of what Alan Friedman has, does he have a top of the range Flea 3 or something? just dreaming...

Alexandra

[marktownley]

The Flea 3 5.0MP Mono on GigE costs £1352 excl vat.

Edmunds Optics (my other favourite sweet shop) also sells PGR cameras, but they're 30-50% more expensive on there than CVI http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/cam ... amera/3356

EO actually have quite a few different species of cameras to tempt you with... http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/cameras/

[Montana]

Oh my word!!! it is a dream, I nearly fell off my chair.

I need to get my camera fixed cos I'm not paying that. The whole camera thing has me mystified, I just don't understand any of it really, I wouldn't know a good camera if I fell over it, let alone get it to work on a computer. I really like the DMK as it just works well sort of

Alexandra

[solarchat]

Alan uses a 6.0MP Grasshopper II on a MacBook Pro using ASTRO IIDC


and, if you really want to wonder why we bother..... he uses a single 90mm Coronado external etalon on a small 76mm traveler Refractor...

[JimLafferty]

Everytime I go camera shopping I end up sticking with my DMK 41 lol. Just not "enough" improvement in fps and chip size yet. But something good's coming....i can feel it lol.
Jim

[swisswalter]

Hi Jim

yeahh let us know as soon as possible. Big sensor, small pixels, very fast and low $$$$$ ;-)

[swisswalter]

I know Stephen, I don't actually need one, the problem is when I look on websites like the one above i'm like a kid in a sweet store and 'want' lots from it




Hi Mark

we are twins Well you came a little bit later ;-)

[marktownley]

At an all in price of a shade over £300 (incl vat), the PGR Chameleon is surprisingly good value for money (here in the UK) - pretty much same sized frame and frame rate as a DMK31 but around £200 cheaper. If I was in the market for a camera with larger frame size than my DMK31 I would likely go for the Chameleon...

[PEterW]

Met a guy at an event over the weekend who liked his Chameleon. I got a trusty DMK41 at the moment, seems like the Chameleon has greater sensitivity but smaller pixels (so less of the disk visible), >8bit (but then lower frame rate), supplied drivers are plop but Firecapture works well?? So a worthwhile upgrade or just differently equipped from what I am used to??

Cheers

pEter

[hunterknox]

I've had one for a while but haven't managed to using the darn thing yet, except to check it works. My solar season starts after my exam season finishes in a couple of weeks - I'll be sure to report back after that...

[marktownley]

On specs alone Peter, I don't think there's a huge difference between a 41 and a Chameleon...

[avertedimagination]

Alan uses a 6.0MP Grasshopper II on a MacBook Pro using ASTRO IIDC


and, if you really want to wonder why we bother..... he uses a single 90mm Coronado external etalon on a small 76mm traveler Refractor...

I have a Flea 3 640x480, a Grasshopper II 2.0 megapixel and a Grasshopper Xpress 6.0 megapixel - all firewire interface. I recently sold my older Scorpion and all my DMK cameras. The Point Grey cameras are more expensive and more versatile than the DMK cameras - 14bit instead of 8 bit so they can record in 8bit or 16bit modes. They also support ROI (region of interest) frame sizing, allowing you to use a subsection of the imaging sensor when a smaller field and faster frame rate are desirable. They are quite a bit smaller and lighter as well.

Though my early Coronado Solarmax 90 + BF30 can be attached to my four refractors I use it almost exclusively with the smallest - a 92mm F5 Astro-Physics Stowaway. It's a triple (fluorite) apochromat, 6 lbs and 14 inches long.

[JimLafferty]

Not enough difference between the DMK 41 and the Chamealon to warrent a move in my opinion. The Grasshopper 3 would be a better trade up. If you go to a point grey camera keep in mind that Firecapture is your option for image capture. Flycap is horrendous, Lucam doesnt support it and AstroIIDC is no longer commercially available. Ive been enjoying my grasshopper 3 but while it can shoot 16bit vs 8 bit, I cant see the difference visually other than it does capture prom activity in a single shot, although still not nearly what you can still capture with a separate prom shot with settings optimized for proms, and the file sizes are way too huge in 16 bit to justify the difference imho, at least so far. The Grasshopper in 8bit is still worth the move up (FPS, lower noise--esp on prom shots, and lots more real estate).
I asked Emil from AutoStakkert about this 16bit vs 8bit on solar issue and he pointed me to some of his online discussions about it. Ill look it up when I get home and post the link.
Jim

[JimLafferty]

Here is the link I mentioned above

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/ ... t/all/vc/1

I think sometimes our experience with 16 bit vs 8 bit on deep sky images makes one assume its the same for solar. Emil's basic conclusion was that using over 8 bit for solar (and planetary) video cpature was pretty much a waste if you are doing it for image quality, due to the noise introduced by the daytime temps involved and noise overall. In the end, its not "wrong or right" to use one or the other but it may be unnecessary unless you really dont want to capture proms separately (albeit with less detail than you would with a separate exposure optimised from the proms). You just arent going to achieve capture settings that will optimize both proms and disk detail with a single shot, even in 16 bit.

Jim

[brianb11213]

Emil's basic conclusion was that using over 8 bit for solar (and planetary) video cpature was pretty much a waste if you are doing it for image quality, due to the noise introduced by the daytime temps involved and noise overall.
Always assuming, of course, you can get the exposure right.

For planetary work, serious underexposure in 16 bit mode seems to give more dynamic range i.e. not blowing out highlights whilst retaining detail & not too much noise in the shadows ... because you can reduce gain the noise effects are reduced.

As for temperature: lots of planetary imagers seem to be working in night-time ambient temps higher than some of us solar types ... the funny thing is that uncooled planetary / lunar / solar cameras work as well as they do; serious cooling is more or less mandatory for deep sky work!

You just arent going to achieve capture settings that will optimize both proms and disk detail with a single shot, even in 16 bit.
Optimise, probably not, but shooting an effective "one shot" disk & prom is easier with more bit depth in the capture.

[solarchat]

gotta join in here as a dedicated PGR Grasshopper user and ask a few questions.

While my images are certainly not up to the standards of the best in this forum I feel like they are beautiful and inspiring to many. I also like to think that while I gave up the habit of taking a prominence exposure and a surface exposure and then combining them with the DMK's, in fact I gave away all 8 DMK cameras so others could use them..., I like to think that the image attained in the PGR's is more accurate to reality than the "optimized" prom/surface combo.

I havent taken an image other than full disk with surface and proms in the same exposure in a long while as this is what the public/students like to see at events and I just hit record or have a visitor hit record every now and then during events to attain all the images that I publish.

I wonder what the arguments are as to the reality of the different levels of light from different regions of the Sun vs. the need to artificially pump up some areas to be more aesthetically pleasing to DSO/planetary types. I have never really imaged anything else other than the Sun and seem to think that the dynamic range of the stacked images from the 16 bit .movs attained in ASTRO IIDC are more realisitic, if not quite as beautiful, than the 8 bit combo shots.?

[JimLafferty]

LOL
I almost didnt hit the send button on my last post fearing the "shitstorm" that might follow

First, to address Stephen's comments---I completely agree. The same argument has been flaring up off and on with the night-time imagers/processers. Is it "true to life"? is is it "over-emphasized"? are the colors "real"? does it REALLY look like that"? heh heh, I guess it's hit the solar imaging world now. We have a wide range of image "interpretation" with the sun. Im not even going to attempt to say which is right or which is wrong. I dont think I can. The minute we start imaging with filters that show us what our own eyes cant detect on their own, and start to colorize them, invert them (egad!), etc., we step into the world of "interpretation" and indeed, art. I think its up to each of us to decide on our own what we want to depict in our images and not get too wrapped up in what others may or may not be doing. AstoIIDC sounds like a great program, but unless it can be purchased by someone today, and they are ready to go to a Mac, its really a mute point to anyone going forward in the hobby. BTW Stephen, your images are some of the best Ive seen.

Brian>>>I completely understand why some want to capture both proms and disk together in one avi. I'd love to do it as well. Its certainly easier and Im all for that My point was simply that with todays video producing camera's the settings still cant be optimized to get the most out of the proms and the disk together. Im hoping that will change. Its up to each imager how much "optimized" is. Its just not there for me yet. I agree on temps. Emils point was basically that "real world" with the issues of noise, the image produced by an 8 bit camera is still no worse visually than one captured in 16 bit with todays video producing cameras. One can always "measure scientifically" one difference or another, but in the end it comes down to the image we observe with our eyes, and the net is replete with comments about solar imagers not being able to "see" the difference in the final product. I think the best is yet to come in terms of cameras but we still arent there yet. Getting more "bit depth" on proms that arent optimized to begin with in terms of s/n ratio and detail captured and is kinda self defeating anyways.

In the end to each his own--I think we all benefit from the different approaches each of us takes in our imaging and processing. During my solar presentations I try to emphasize that this is what makes our corner of the astro-imaging hobby so great. We arent night time deep sky imagers and dont need to try to spend our time trying to achieve some "Tony Hallas Nirvana". We are a little more free to "go our own way" with solar imaging and processing. Solar Imagers are part newscaster, part sttory teller. I respect each imager on their own merits--it seems like each one of us is able to tell our story of the sun in a completely unique way and that is a big PLUS is any hobby!

Jim

[colmic]

This is one of the reason i bought the ICX674 PGR Grasshopper3 instead the DMK31. Wide field AND 16bits mode (10 bits in fact in the case of ICX674), imaging Proms AND surface is more easy to have.

And advice : Take and register 4 images than 1 add 1 bit in dynamic range. So take a look at this formula :
4 images => 1 bit more
16 images => 2 bits more
64 images => 3 bits more
256 images => 4 bits more
1024 images => 5 bits more

Actually the best sensors (ICX674, ICX694, ICX445...) have 10 bits in dynamic. So for example if you take an .SER or .MOV in 16 bits mode with an 30fps camera, typically 20 seconds max, you can have 600 images to register. Register 256 of 600 and you will obtain a image with 14 bits dynamic. This is perfect for proms AND surface.

If you take a look at my last post (test of BF30), all images are taken with only one shot for proms and surface, and with gain at minimum. So with the DMK31 i was unable to have these results...

[avertedimagination]

Here is the link I mentioned above

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/ ... t/all/vc/1



Emil has tremendous knowledge on this but I believe the analysis is directed towards planetary imaging. Saturn through my 10" scope requires the gain slider to be pushed almost to the limit in red light in order to achieve 30 fps. The sun can be imaged with zero gain (brightness) amplification. Noise is much less of an issue. The sun also radiates light over a tremendous dynamic range, which is easily seen in the challenges of recording an active region during moments of flaring.

This said, I also almost always record in 8 bit mode to maximize the frame rate and the open space on my hard disk. And though I am fortunate to have a working copy of Astro IIDC, I understand that finding good capture software is an issue.

The Scorpion camera that I purchased from a third party after it had been discontinued was more fully featured than the DMK cameras I had been using. Point Grey is continually working on product development, so these older cameras do appear from time to time and can give an opportunity to experiment with their products at a very affordable price.

[solarchat]

Well, one of the great things about this forum is that since I run it and am the "decider guy" (I know Jim will love that one) there will never be a petty "shitte-storm" about who's images are better or what technique is better... I, We, don't want this forum to resemble the silly for profit selfishness of some of the others about who's image is the best, why your approach sucks, all the ways you are wrong in what you're doing, or why you cant share my image without permission or any of that other garbage.

While I am certainly prone to having my feelings hurt sometimes by being mostly ignored by the "real astronomers" , whenever I feel like I am being stupid and self absorbed, I just remember that the whole point is to get more people involved in this hobby or any other nerd hobby so that we can increase the tendency for the world to go back towards a science minded, space-faring civilization before its too late.

I have to remind myself a lot that the established community of imagers out there is not my target with outreach, they are ALREADY IN the hobby and Ill never live up to their standards. I want people who would otherwise never even get a chance to look into a telescope to come to my events. These people have a completely different opinion of what a beautiful image is than the guys who do it all the time. They couldn't care less about the noise or the bit depth or the color or even about the realism, for that matter, of our images. Some of the so called "crappiest" images out there are shared more than any others on Facebook and elsewhere.

Who's name got into an astronomy magazine is irrelevant in this endeavor but it is a struggle sometimes, being a Leo... and all.

[solarchat]

ya man, I am sort of disappointed that I never heard much back or saw many images from anyone who the club gave the Laptops, iMacs and PGR's and DMK's to. Scorpion, 2-Chameleons, Flea II, DMK21, 2-DMK31s, 2-DMK41s, 2-DMK51s. Maybe Im just missing them but I was hoping for some more use out of them. Scott Gauer has put up some stuff so thats good but what happened to the Australian's, and the Indians that got the equipment? Maybe I just forgot where they went.

Personally, I really prefer the Grasshopper 5 or 6 MP cameras but thats because I only do full disks and use them for color full disk broadcasts at events.

[JimLafferty]

All good comments---in the end, as Stephen said, its not about "better". Alan, you are correct the bulk of the cloudynights thread is focused on planetary -- he does discuss solar in that context there as well --

" The solar recordings a couple of messages above also show no differences between 8 and 12-bit recordings for the surface details. Again the gain was at it's lowest possible setting, but the higher daytime temperatures (around 20 degrees ambient temperature) probably introduces too much noise to justify using 12-bit."

I dont think anyone is arguing whether you can record proms and disk together with 16 bit--obviously you can. I can also do it when double stacked in 8 bit with the Luntanado, but in either case, the very brightest proms are readily visible but its the dickins if you want to get the feint whispies that maybe getting detached from the limb, unless you shoot that separate avi with the settings maximized for that. In the end, its what YOU are happy with.

Alan brought up a good point regarding dynamic range. He mentioned flaring, which is the ultimate in "dynamic range" when trying to capture the sun, and even with 16 bit the flaring is just gonna get blown out, but the more subtler message is that there isnt the dynamic range when imaging the sun (outside of the proms)such that we need 16 bit to tease out "more detail" like we need to when doing night time deepsky nebula, galaxies, etc. This is probably why folks are surprised when they image the solar disk in 16 bit and it doesnt look more detailed than their 8 bit attempts. Now with proms, its different--the 16 bit will let you tease those babies out, but still not yet to the extent you can with a separate avi with today's cameras.

[avertedimagination]

Some of these issues will depend on what the end product of your imaging will be. On screen you will be limited to displaying in 8 bits so you can choose to portray the dynamics of the sun from a single data file recorded at 16bit or from several 8 bit files recorded with different camera settings.

I find making prints to be a much more troublesome endeavor. The 6.0 megapixel sensor helps provide data for larger prints without the need for mosaics. For full disk images intended to share on a computer screen, the sizable real estate and cost are probably more than is necessary.

[brianb11213]

I agree absolutely that practical results are more important than theory ... but at least if you understand the theory, you should have a clue as to how to optimise the performance of whatever hardware you happen to have available.

Take and register 4 images than 1 add 1 bit in dynamic range. So take a look at this formula :
4 images => 1 bit more
16 images => 2 bits more
64 images => 3 bits more
256 images => 4 bits more
1024 images => 5 bits more
Indeed. I can get "reasonable" results one-shotting the solar surface & brighter proms with an 8 bit camera (DMK) providing I set gamma high (to brighten the shadows) & shoot a very large number of frames (to reduce apparent noise in the shadow region). Actually some mix of quantum & thermal noise is necessary to prevent "posterization" when the sensor is "abused" in this way: it's averaging frames through stacking that enables reasonably smooth tonal transitions.

Faint proms just have to be imaged seperately ... and I strongly suspect that this holds true whatever the bit depth of the sensor, recording and image processing software.

As Jim points out, bright flares will lead to blown highlights ... unless you deliberately underexpose ... now this is one area where a high bit depth might help, because underexposing by a few bits might leave the solar surface "recoverable" at resasonably high quality by gamma adjustment and/or shadow/highlight manipulation without burning out the brightest portions of the flare.

[avertedimagination]

...While I am certainly prone to having my feelings hurt sometimes by being mostly ignored by the "real astronomers" , whenever I feel like I am being stupid and self absorbed, I just remember that the whole point is to get more people involved in this hobby or any other nerd hobby so that we can increase the tendency for the world to go back towards a science minded, space-faring civilization before its too late.

Talking about the "whole point" as if there is one endeavor that is most valuable is, to my thinking, another judgment that serves to limit the possibilities rather than to expand the horizon. There is no one point, nor is there one image that is the best or the one right way to tell the story of anything under the sun.

What one is allowed to own as intellectual property is a moving target that requires spending quality time with attorneys and/or clergy - not my idea of a fun party. But to say that any photo of the sun is in the public domain because the sun is visible and accessible to all is not going to be a conversation starter. The same argument could be made for any photographic image or landscape painting or graphic design based on perception of reality. We all have property rights to certain things. Whether we choose to act on those rights or not is another story. Sometimes sharing things is more rewarding than keeping them locked up in your bedroom. One of those life lessons learned early playing softball.

[solarchat]

I agree Alan, of course you Jim L. and Greg P. would know a lot more than me on that issue of printing.

I forgot to mention that I also find that the images recorded with the PGRs seem to have a lot more flexibility in post processing in PS6. You seem to be able to stretch everything a lot further each way with the PGR stacks than the DMK stacks. Im not sure if this is the right terminology or not but I do like Mark-I record at a higher gamma and exposure until it is just below saturation, then I bring it all down in PS6. As you know ASTRO IIDC has a saturation indicator which I have found to be invaluable. I know you do the blending together of dozens of images after selecting the regions in A-IIDC but I haven't really ever done that. I also don't know anything about painting out or on parts of different layers onto the final layer, etc... It is pretty much one area stacked just like it comes out.


Seems to be a lot more room to sharpen and stuff with the higher bit depth.

and Alan, I was referring to the main point of my nonprofit, this forum and the global program that has evolved under the CBSAP name. which I definitely define the parameters of. and that is anonymous, free sharing of the Sun to encourage science.

I didn't mean to suppose or infer that this should be everyone else's main goal, sorry if I did. One could only conclude from the sheer numbers that you and your images have done more outreach than this entire group will ever do if you count eyeballs of viewers. There is not a more classy guy that I admire more than you and Greg P. in this business or any other so maybe it is possible to do both? I just am a weird bird and I put my foot in my mouth a lot. It just makes me that much more irresistible...like the famous Friedman hats or the Gary Palmer "I love you" hug...

[JimLafferty]

I would say that most of the time you'll find that the ease of stretching and processing can be more a function of the s/n ratio of stacking more frames vs less, than 8 bit vs 16 bit. Im not sure thats a "hard and fast" rule but it seems to be my experience with solar images. So many different variables, I know that personally, Ive seen that especially when changing equipment there are so many other variables that change with it I sometimes attribute some improvement or other with the wrong variable, lol. IE: I think its giving me better results because of pixel size difference or improved bit depth when really its the lower noise thats the factor that improved it the most. Sometimes, as we learn, we just get better at processing, and its that ability that sometimes is really making the change. We just dont always see it Fun Fun.

Alan makes some great points as far as intellectual property. I think we've all shared many of our images without asking for more than "credit" for taking the image. I know that the money I take in for my book pretty much just funds my hobby---no one's getting rich, lol. Stephen sets the bar for outreach and effort to get to the most people possible and he takes passion for the hobby to a whole different level.

[avertedimagination]

I would say that most of the time you'll find that the ease of stretching and processing can be more a function of the s/n ratio of stacking more frames vs less, than 8 bit vs 16 bit.

Right on the money, Jim.

I just am a weird bird and I put my foot in my mouth a lot. It just makes me that much more irresistible...like the famous Friedman hats or the Gary Palmer "I love you" hug...

You've charmed me since our first dinner together at the Airmont Diner, my friend.

[marktownley]

Some excellent points being brought up here fellas