Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

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toothtango

Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by toothtango »

I am looking to upgrade from a 60mm double stack to either the 80mm DS or the 100mm SS. I want to use the scope for viewing and imaging with a DMK41. I know that double stacking increases surface detail, but does the increase in resolution of the extra 20mm give the same views as the double stacked 80. I understand you can bring out some details in PP, but would like to also view them when no imaging. Thanks.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Scott

I can tell from using a LUNT 60 DS compared to a LUNT 100 single stack. Visually the 60 DS is a cracker compared to the 100 SS


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Merlin66 »

Scott,
To me it's different tools for different jobs.
I use the DS60 for the "fine brush strokes" and imaging across the whole red-blue reaches of the Ha bandwidth, then I enjoy the views of proms at the wider SS bandwith. I find the modded PST88 SS I use, compliments the DS60 - it doesn't replace it.
Hope this helps.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by oldfrankland »

Choosing between aperture and DS; I'd go with aperture. I'm using a 0.8A single stack and there is no end to awesome things to follow on the limb and disk at higher magnification.




....but that's just me.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by swisswalter »

Choosing between aperture and DS; I'd go with aperture. I'm using a 0.8A single stack and there is no end to awesome things to follow on the limb and disk at higher magnification.


....but that's just me.

Hi Jim

an absolute wonder shot. Congrat's. I'm jealous, not really, it's just great to know chaps who can do that. I'm a small fish in the same pond and I'm just hoping you don't eat me up because of my comments ;)


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by oldfrankland »

[quote]Choosing between aperture and DS; I'd go with aperture. I'm using a 0.8A single stack and there is no end to awesome things to follow on the limb and disk at higher magnification.


....but that's just me.

Hi Jim

an absolute wonder shot. Congrat's. I'm jealous, not really, it's just great to know chaps who can do that. I'm a small fish in the same pond and I'm just hoping you don't eat me up because of my comments ;)

Thanks. Up to a point, my imaging skills can take some credit, but for the most part, larger aperture and hitting upon good seeing conditions should be more heavily credited.

Viewing and imaging these post flare loops is by far the most exciting and rewarding astro experience to date. They just hung there over the spots!!!

edit:....oh, well, except for seeing the 1979 total eclipse of the sun from Helena, Montana. Overwhelming...


toothtango

Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by toothtango »

walter. what do you mean by cracker. sorry, not familiar with foreign slang.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Scott

what I meant was that visually my LUNT 60DS outperformed my LUNT 100 SS in point of details seen


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Derek Klepp »

Scott I upgraded from a 60mm aperture to a 100mm Lunt SS I was blown away with difference.If you check out the pics I post that's virtually what I see live on screen(I use analogue video as opposed to DMK cameras).It was worth twice the price of the smaller aperture. As for the eyepiece view blown away.
Derek


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by solarchat »

Thanks Guys!

Dr. Scott has been with me from the start as an interested party. He just completed a big solar rotation study with his son and was also a purchaser of the original Daystar Penta scopes that we both returned.
Scott wants to go up to the next level and I recommended a LS100 single etalon instead of an 80/60 doublestack for maximum upgrade wow factor. I asked him to come here and try and get opinions from the forum as I know there are several people on here in the same position.
Hopefully this time yhe will buy from Tim at Camera bug...:) Tim is a super supporter of the outreach club and a great friend. His store is a block away and I can do a checkout of anything purchased there before it ships. His prices are the same as anywhere else and he offers a 10% discount to CBSAP club members.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by solarchat »

To answer your question though Scott; no the single etalon will give you more resolution of available details at .65A and the double stack will give you a little less resolution of more details at 80mm. I suggested the SS 100 because I wanted you to start with greater resolution and then have a big step up still available by doublestacking the same scope later rather than going al the way with a smaller aperture up front. Plus, the 80/60 double stack is not nearly as much upgrade in resolution as the single 100.
Either scope will be awesome but the 100mm single puts you in the middle of the big leagues while the double 80 puts you at the top rank of the minors. Just a personal choice.

Another user Chuck started out by ordering the single 80 on my request as he did not already have a scope. Bill has the 80mm and just ordered the double stacker for it as his first scope. You have already been uysing a double 60/50 for some time now and you would not get as much wow factor by bumping up 20mm as you would with a full 40mm increase.


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Suncityan

Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Suncityan »

Reading, "the double 80 puts you at the top rank of the minors", in the post above makes me think that my DS 60 is considered the middle of the minors. When purchased about ten years ago it was considered much more than that.

Progress is great.

Anyone got any thing to say about a DS 152?


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by solarchat »

Anyone got any thing to say about a DS 152?

They dont exist yet?


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Suncityan

Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Suncityan »

Yoo Hoo Andy, the natives are getting restless..


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Scott...

I would follow Merlins comment that the two options target two different intentions.

Larger aperature will give finer resolution of details, as in arc seconds resolution. The effect is both visual or via imaging. A 2.5" scope has greater resolving power compared to a 4" scope (daws limit). The choice of double vs single stack influences the detail seen in the Ha band.

Double stacking (DS) reduces the image brightness, so the advantage of DS on smaller scopes becomes harder to see visually...can be overcome by the highly sensitive cameras used. Larger aperature with a DS gives an improvement in both resolution and Ha detail and a brighter image which makes the image much easier to view.

My first Lunt system was the LS50FHa/B1200 on my William Optics 66mm scope, set up in the fall of 2008. Single stack (SS) it provided a nice crisp, relatively bright image. Still, the scope was effectively operating as a 50mm. I then got the LS75FHa, which gave a much brighter image again (single stack) on an old 4" refractor, but I was still +25mm of effective aperature. When I DS the 75/50 etalons on the 4" scope the image was quite dim visually (long f10 scope), but the DS gave much enhanced images of the Ha bandpass. Visually and photgraphically, the SS 75mm resolved finer structure than the SS.

The next step was to move up to the LS80T. The SS 80mm scope was not much more aperature than the SS 75mm etalon, but now I could DS the LS75 etalon on the LS80T and move up to a full 75mm of effective aperature. Now I had a close match in both the aperature for spatial resolution and the DS for maximum Ha resolution. I have used thsi system for the past 9 months or so.

I have just received the DSII unit for the LS80T, so I will have the full, un-obstructed 80mm DS aperature. I don't see it as a huge improvementr over the previous system but I will either have a 75mm etalon to sell, or keep it as a 'Triple' stack. I had a good set of images when I tried this in the summer with the LS75+LS50 stacked in fornt of the LS80T, but I was back to working with 50mm net aperature.

I need a clear day to finsish setting it all up and will post some pics.

Fundamentally, I would opt to buy as much aperature as you can afford. There are options to DS the LS100 (either front mounted 100mm, or a to be released interal DSII type module). If fine Ha resolution is key off the start then the budget will dictate which scope will work.

Just my thoughts, and I am sure that everyone will agree that there is no one 'right' answer...we tailor our hobby to our own interests and budgets.

Brian


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Suncityan »

The comment in the post above, "I would opt to buy as much aperture as you can afford.", is a good one as is the complete post. I second everything written from my perspective as a visual observer only.

However please let me inject another factor first posted on this forum, in my knowledge, by Mark Townley some months ago. That post mentioned one should consider the seeing conditions in the specific area where the telescope will be used most of the time.

It's great to have the largest aperture "you can afford"; however, should the seeing not be all that good it is not cost effective to pay for all that extra glass, Tommy


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Merlin66 »

Tommy,
Good point!
The larger aperture as a potential of a better surface resolution and provide a brighter image which may assist imaging, BUT if the seeing conditions are 2-3" then that's the best you'll get....about the same as 30mm objective ;-)


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by Merlin66 »

Brian,
That's the second post I've see that mentions triple stacking...(I'll start a new thread for subsequent discussions) but technically I can't see how it can be done!


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by MapleRidge »

Yes, we are at the mercy of the air above us!

Brian


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Tommy...

I missed this earlier and meant to refer to the limits of the atmaosphere, so I am glad you caught it. I wasn't trying to imply that a 10" or 12" scoope would be better than the 4" for solar work.

I have found that many of the 'best' images are coming from scopes in the 3-5" range. If you look at the high quaility images that are posted in Ha and white light, we can often see that the image is not uniformly consistently across the field...we often find have small areas where the image is a bit blurry compared to the adjacent areas...the result of small scale seeing variations.

The larger aperatures will likely perform better for those at higher altitudes or areas with stable airmasses. If you set up to observe on an asphalt parking lot, no scope will likely reach its potential ;) . One advantage of using the high frame rate cameras is the ability to select sharp frames from the moments of better seeing, which I think will allow better results from the larger aperature than what we have historically been able to observe visually.

Brian


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Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by oldfrankland »

Hmmmmm....can't agree. The patient observer will always get more out of larger aperture despite the seeing. A 10" solar scope in a suburban backyard would be pushing it, but a 4" or 5" solar scope should provide moments of excellent viewing in all but jet-stream turbulent conditions. Settling for a smaller aperture scope because local seeing conditions are perceived as being too poor for a larger instrument is foolish, IMHO.

I also think if is foolish to get hung up on double stacking a system if you are sacrificing aperture to do it.

Just my thoughts.....your mileage may vary.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Jim...

I think we are somewhat in aagreement on the large scope in the environment most of us live in, and I also agree with your comment about small aperature and double stacking. I may not have worded my comment quite as well as I intended.

Brian


Brian Colville

Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
toothtango

Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by toothtango »

Thank you all for your expertise and honest answers. I am definitely leaning towards the ls100. I just need to look up the weight and length to make sure I have adequate mounting. Thanks. again.


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by marktownley »

What an interesting thread! With a bit of time on my hands I feel I can chirp in with a few of my own personal thoughts, opinions and observations...

Regards the aperture and seeing discussion. From MY individual situation seeing conditions are bl00dy awful pretty much most of the time; all transatlantic flights in and out of London airports go squarely over my house, we have another international airport not too many miles to the east of us and the consequence of this is when the sky is clear it is perpetually criss crossed with contrails. Throw in the fact the jet stream is pretty much resident over the skies of the UK most of the year the boiling atmosphere is ever present. I live in the suburbs of the UKs second largest city and are surrounded by buildings, tarmac and concrete in all directions for miles - the urban heat island effect on the seeing is not a positive thing. The consequences of this - to ME, is that over the last couple of years there's only been several occasions a year when it is feasible to effectively use my 5" frac for WL or CaK images - yes I can get pics but I don't see the point in getting cr@ppy images for the sake of it. I can use my 70mm frac for imaging at these wavelengths on pretty much all occassions throughout the year, and plan probably next month to purchase a 100mm frac; I figure I will get a decent amount of use out of it in an 'average' year. Given that I probably do 99% of all my solar obs from my back yard, for me, it is sensible to tailor the equipment I use to this location...

Turning to things Hydrogen Alpha; I have limited personal experience here, I have only ever observed (and imaged) with a SM40 scope, a PST, a DS-PST and a DS-SM40. I have briefly observed through Robert Arnolds 80mm & 100mm PST modded scopes. However, given my comments above I would not buy for instance a Lunt152 as I genuinely think I would be wasting the aperture. I have spent many a summers day sat staring at the laptop screen when doing WL imaging with the 5" only to find the seeing never settles down for long enough to capture an AVI file - seriouslly! I do however firmly believe that with a limited aperture (i'm talking 40mm PST size here) if you are limited by budget and can't afford to go up to say a Lunt 60, then buying a sale price or second hand SM40 etalon to double stack is the way forward - the contrastier image makes the small budget upgrade a winner - IMHO. Let me just double clarify this though, I am only saying this at essentially PST aperture size.

Couple of things being mentioned about image brightness and double stacking - with my setup with my ERF mods I get visually an image that is brighter now in DS mode than I did in SS mode, the consequence of this is that visually I am able to use higher magnifications than I ever could in SS mode. Imaging wise the plus of this is much shorter exposures are possible... Just a little food for thought for you D-stackers...

Coming back to the original question - what would I do in this position? Well all being well I hope to be in this position later in the year; i've been a good boy at work and hope to reap the financial rewards then. I would go for a likely 100mm single stack system - be that a Lunt (unlikely due to them being twice the price in the UK compared to USA), maybe a 100mm solarscope filter (unlikely unless work gives me a really nice pay rise!), however the likely option is a homebrew system using a PST etalon. Despite being readily available in the UK I would steer clear of a Coronado 90mm unless it was a really good price due to the naff focuser... The 100mm aperture is the limit seeing wise based on what I said at the top of this post. What leads me to the 100mm SS advice - quite simply what all these experienced people tell me on this and other solar forums - there is no substitute for experience! Whatever I do I will keep my DS40, because for full disks images and visually it is great!

HTH!

Mark :)


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Re: Does increase in aperture make up for double stacking.

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Mark...

I think you have a good hand on the situation. We have to consider the environment you observe from and your experience in evaluating what different scopes and configuration perform like at your site. Budgets ultimately dictate what we use, so knowing whee the investment will serve you best is critical.

One other issue with seeing is how it will vary with wavelength. The red and near IR are generally the least affected, and the blue/UV is degraded most. Seeing may not look too bad in HA, but when I put the CaK module in it is sometiem damn hard to find a crisp focus. On the planetary side, there are nights that I only use the IR bands...seeing is too poor to get the blue or UV.

It is much easier now with the likes of the Imaging Source and Lumenera (even the webcam) to have a refresh rate fast enough to get a decent feel for focus, and by capturing hundreds or thousands of frames we can now select out the few captured in the good seeing. When I started CCD workk back in 1991, the 'fastest' cameras only ran at best 1 fps and it was alwasy as guess if you had good focus or just a lucky guess.

I sympathize with the jet stream issues...here in the Great Lakes Lowlands, I have the jet stream wandering back and forth over me, and then add in the flow of warm air up the Misssippi Valley which crashes into the cold air that I inherit from the north and west parts of Canada...makes quite a 'soup' to work with. A prof at university once told me that "Southern Ontario was the worst place in the world to do astronomy"...form a professional perspective I can't argue with him, but I have had a lifetime of fun and achievement trying anyway :lol:

For what its worth, that is my take.

Brian


Brian Colville

Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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