Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

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Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:43 am

Hi all,

Here are my reflected radio detections through November so far, which include the peak of the Leonid meteor shower (November 17th). The month began with the continuation of the tail of the Orionids which peaked in October. This was followed by a brief period of minimal activity (down to a sporadic event background count of 8-10/hr) before increasing slightly to and through the Leonid peak on the 17th.

The hourly rate for the Leonids isn't especially high (unlike the Perseids in August), reaching an additional 20 or so events per hour over and above the continual background sporadic events.
Leonids_November 2020.jpg
Leonids_November 2020.jpg (168.58 KiB) Viewed 228 times
Though not strictly solar data, or space weather, I suppose it could be argued that the relationship with the Sun here is gravitational :)

Thanks for looking and I hope you find this interesting.

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Montana » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:07 am

Always lovely to see Stuart, I guess it is Spaceweather as these debris fields are from the Sun tearing apart comets :)

Great work :hamster: I always expected the peaks to be much larger, where are the ones where they say up to 100-150 per hour?

Alexandra



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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:18 pm

Hi,

Well done Stu.

@Alexandra

Well I do not know if it is true :o but if you look at my statistics I have had up to 637 echoes in one hour and comparing with the non echo hours well looks like some logic is in there ... Still working on that and I will need a second station far away from my site to corroborate this values.

Lot of meteor chasers will say impossible but how comes that I have peaks up to 600 or more and on the other side I have low values as 10 echoes per hour and looking at the colorgram it is quite stable ...

If you look at the colorgram you cans ee the peaks are around 2 to 5 o'clock in the morning local time which is when according to the experts one gets the echoes due to the earth orientation against the flying direction of the earth.

Maybe Stu has an explanation for it :?

RMO_112020.jpg
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RMO_112020_RMOB_file.JPG (235.04 KiB) Viewed 219 times


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:30 am

Montana wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:07 am
Always lovely to see Stuart, I guess it is Spaceweather as these debris fields are from the Sun tearing apart comets :)

Great work :hamster: I always expected the peaks to be much larger, where are the ones where they say up to 100-150 per hour?

Alexandra
Thank you, Alexandra.

I understand the Leonid count is always relatively low at around 20 per hour. The Geminids in December should be more impressive.

I understand that the high values you’ve quoted are ‘corrected’ Zenith Hourly Rate values, based on applying factors that take into account the impact of location and sky conditions on actual observation values. It’s an attempt to try to normalise the results from multiple observers.

I’m unsure how radio detections are treated in this regard. Looking at data from around the world, everyone obtains wildly different results depending on their equipment, the radio frequency and transmitter location and local ‘electromagnetic’ environment (secondary) reflections, interference, noise and so on. For example, Rainer’s data are substantially different to mine in terms of number of detections.

Maybe someone reading this can offer some insight on this. :)

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 am

@ Rainer,

You must be getting multiple reflections, or signals from more than one transmitter, maybe? What do the individual events look like? Does a single ‘event’ produce multiple counts?

Nice data though. You’ve certainly captured the peak of the shower, despite the very high numbers.

Stu.

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:56 pm

Hi Stu,
You must be getting multiple reflections, or signals from more than one transmitter, maybe? What do the individual events look like? Does a single ‘event’ produce multiple counts?
This could be well the reason. Look at the coverage of my 4 Element DIY YAGI antena for 174.31 MHz. At 3dB power it covers 58°. Look how many transmitters with 174.31 MHz frquency are in there.

NHSA_RMO_Meteor_Scatter_Coverage.jpg
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Antenna coverage at 3 dB power [little red circle] to one side and the same to the other side.

NHSA_DIY_4_Element_YAGI_174.31_MHz_Coverage.JPG
NHSA_DIY_4_Element_YAGI_174.31_MHz_Coverage.JPG (186.01 KiB) Viewed 192 times


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Wyvern » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:07 pm

Hi all,
For what it's worth, here are my Leonid results over the maximum period.
Mini peak on the 16th around 0500-06.00 GMT then a general rise in pings on the 17th from 02.00-04.00 GMT and an "interesting" peak at 08.00-09.00 GMT on the 17th.
Regards,
Les
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Leonids 2020 Line.jpg
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Leonids 2020 Bar.jpg
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Leonids 2020  Numbers.jpg
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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:35 pm

Many thanks, Les. Good information.

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:46 pm

rsfoto wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:56 pm
Hi Stu,
You must be getting multiple reflections, or signals from more than one transmitter, maybe? What do the individual events look like? Does a single ‘event’ produce multiple counts?
This could be well the reason. Look at the coverage of my 4 Element DIY YAGI antena for 174.31 MHz. At 3dB power it covers 58°. Look how many transmitters with 174.31 MHz frquency are in there.


NHSA_RMO_Meteor_Scatter_Coverage.jpg


Antenna coverage at 3 dB power [little red circle] to one side and the same to the other side.



NHSA_DIY_4_Element_YAGI_174.31_MHz_Coverage.JPG
Hi Rainer,

This looks likely to be the issue. Your data show a clear (and correct) pattern, it’s just the numbers are too high. Maybe just normalise by dividing by a factor to account for the multiple radio sources.

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:41 pm

Hi Stu,

Thanks for the suggestion. On the other side I have sometimes just 1 or 2 echoes per hour ;) Will analyze what I do with this.

Eventually I will built a Moxon for 76.31 MHz (size is acceptable = 141 cm x 52 cm rectangle) as there is only one strong transmitter in USA and see what happens with that.


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:26 pm

Sounds like a cool plan, Rainer. :)


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:04 pm

Carbon60 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:24 am
@ Rainer,

You must be getting multiple reflections, or signals from more than one transmitter, maybe? What do the individual events look like? Does a single ‘event’ produce multiple counts?

Nice data though. You’ve certainly captured the peak of the shower, despite the very high numbers.

Stu.

Hi Stu,

I was recapitulating what you wrote about multiple refelections.

If that is so, then I should get at the same time bright spots on my waterfall at different echo frequencies but not time differences ...

¿ or ?

Look at the screenshot of the colorgram a few days after the Leonid shower. It is much more quiet.

Next big Meteor shower the Geminids in December will bring more Sound into this Silence :cool:

Meteor_Scatter_202011_RMOB_Ehlert.JPG
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regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:41 am

Hi Rainer,

I don’t think there’s any doubt you’re detecting meteors as the pattern matches the pattern of the storm, it’s just that the numbers are very high. When you look at the raw data do you see ‘bursts’ of counts for each event, or something that looks more random? Maybe you could plot out in cumulative counts vs time for a busy night during the peak of the storm to look for clues?

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:03 pm

Carbon60 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:41 am
Hi Rainer,

I don’t think there’s any doubt you’re detecting meteors as the pattern matches the pattern of the storm, it’s just that the numbers are very high. When you look at the raw data do you see ‘bursts’ of counts for each event, or something that looks more random? Maybe you could plot out in cumulative counts vs time for a busy night during the peak of the storm to look for clues?

Stu.
Hi Stu,
When you look at the raw data do you see ‘bursts’ of counts for each event, or something that looks more random?
I do not understand what you wrote in above sentence ... :oops:


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:44 pm

Sorry Rainer,

What I mean is that for every real meteor ‘event’ (burn up in the atmosphere) do you see multiple ‘detections‘ in your data? This would show itself as ‘bursts’ of counts periodically during the night as each real meteor event occurred. For the Leonids we’d expect 20-30 meteor ‘events’ per hour at peak, so do you see in the data 20-30 bursts of counts per hour, with each burst producing multiple ‘apparent’ meteor events (since your numbers are very high), or do the counts build up more randomly?

Does this clarify or further confuse the issue?

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:48 am

Carbon60 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:44 pm
Sorry Rainer,

What I mean is that for every real meteor ‘event’ (burn up in the atmosphere) do you see multiple ‘detections‘ in your data? This would show itself as ‘bursts’ of counts periodically during the night as each real meteor event occurred. For the Leonids we’d expect 20-30 meteor ‘events’ per hour at peak, so do you see in the data 20-30 bursts of counts per hour, with each burst producing multiple ‘apparent’ meteor events (since your numbers are very high), or do the counts build up more randomly?

Does this clarify or further confuse the issue?

Stu.
Hi Stu,

OK, so what you are asking is that if I have a good echo surrounded by many others in a time span of let me say 10, 20, wharever seconds. More or less a cluster, then silence, another cluster, then silence, etc.

If that is what you mean I can say no.

They are all randomly evenly spread over one hour.

Does this answer your question ?


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:52 pm

Hi Stu,

This might be something for you ?


https://radiometeordetection.org/welcome


Rainer


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:33 am

Thanks, Rainer.

It does answer my question.

Please can you send me a copy of the data for one of the nights around the peak? I'm really curious to take a look.

Cheers

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:18 pm

Carbon60 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:33 am
Thanks, Rainer.

It does answer my question.

Please can you send me a copy of the data for one of the nights around the peak? I'm really curious to take a look.

Cheers

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Below some eventlog.txt files from Spectrum lab from November 13th to November 25th

Thanks for analyzing them and perhaps you find something strange there.
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regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by marktownley » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:47 pm

Impressive data chaps! Welcome to Les also :)


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:40 pm

Thanks, Mark.

Rainer, I’ve taken a cursory look at some of the data. As you say, pretty random with no bursts. I did note that some events seem to last a relatively long time, but removing most of these still leaves relatively high hourly counts. Maybe your system is just really sensitive, as you suggested on the call last night. The main thing is the pattern of detections looks to be in keeping with expectations for the meteor shower.

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:27 pm

Carbon60 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:40 pm
Thanks, Mark.

Rainer, I’ve taken a cursory look at some of the data. As you say, pretty random with no bursts. I did note that some events seem to last a relatively long time, but removing most of these still leaves relatively high hourly counts. Maybe your system is just really sensitive, as you suggested on the call last night. The main thing is the pattern of detections looks to be in keeping with expectations for the meteor shower.

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Thank you. Well having so many transmitters in the range of my antenna for sure I get now and then a plane or whatever else.

As I said I need to find somebody who is interested in setting up a staion on a hill with the very same settings as mine. ;) but a few hundred kilometers away from me and pointing ti the same point in USA.

I made a video of November 28 and 29 of the screenshots Spectrum Lab saves. Every screenshot in the video is 0.45s.

I think there it is easier to see that all echoes are random and no clusters around one big echo.

https://rainerehlert.com/000_RMO/28-291 ... _ScSh_.mp4

Also here a screenshot of the very first time I see a double impact counted as one echo only ...

130_event201129030113.jpg
130_event201129030113.jpg (90.52 KiB) Viewed 34 times


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:44 pm

Hi Stu,

Another interesting thing is the following.

Here a comparison of my friends station BBO about 4.5 km away from mine. I built antenna and everything else.

Look at the last three hours marked with red from just right now and looks like we will ahve an increasing tendency of a few showers according to Meteor News. Not very far away each.

My station NHSA

RMO_NHSA_30112020.JPG
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My friends station BBO

RMO_BBO_30112020.JPG
RMO_BBO_30112020.JPG (471.69 KiB) Viewed 29 times


regards Rainer

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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by Carbon60 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:30 am

Very interesting, Rainer. Your's seems to be the better setup of the two, detecting many more events than your friend's system during the shower.

Stu.


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Re: Radio Detected Leonids November 2020

Post by rsfoto » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:14 pm

Carbon60 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:30 am
Very interesting, Rainer. Your's seems to be the better setup of the two, detecting many more events than your friend's system during the shower.

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Both stations are absolutely equal except I am located 70 meters higher and have much less RFI = Radio Frequency Interference. I am using mine without a Band pass Filter as shown on Sunday in the Zoom meeting.

Let us see how it develops in December and in January we will be a bit smarter.


regards Rainer

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