Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/Kutt

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Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/Kutt

Post by swisswalter »

Hi all


per hasard I found that scope (maybe it has no or less SA problems)

a lichtenknecker schiefspiegler (Kutter 125/3500 :hamster: )

an overview
wideanglesetup.jpg

a little bit closer
abitcloser.jpg

horizontal view
horizontalview_small.jpg

a front view
fromtview_small.jpg

a back view
backview_small.jpg

the primary
theprimary_small.jpg

the back of the primary

backprimary_small.jpg

the secondary
thesecondary_small.jpg

back of the secondary
backsencondary_small.jpg

the mounting
mounting_small.jpg








PS: Stephen promised that we can write subjects as long as we wish, but that does not work at the moment


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

here the following pics


my dog finds it boring

dogfindsborin.jpg


adaption 2"

adaptiont_2zoll_small.jpg

the focuser
focuser_small.jpg

first light in the Hand

inthetrees.jpg


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by marktownley »

I think I better come over and pay closer inspection to this new scope ;) Very nice! :cool:


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by Merlin66 »

Walter,
A very nice example of a very unusual telescope design.
(Here in Melbourne, Barry Adcock built is own schiefspiegler back in the 80's and used it to produce some fantastic images of Jupiter...needs long focus eyepieces...)


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark, Hi Ken

thank you very much for your comments. Mark you are always welcome. I hope it works on the sun as good as it looks


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by Merlin66 »

Walter,
I assume you going to use it for white light (which filter positioned where?).


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by depes »

Hi Walter
Nice images of your activity..

***Are you sure you're not wanted by NATO :lol: :o :roll:
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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by Carbon60 »

Fascinating, Walter.

Funky design. Looks like a missile!

You're always doing something interesting with optics.

Stu.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
If you have any questions on the optical performance, or collimation I maybe able to help. I'm the designer of the Delmarva Schief in which I improved the optical performance over the Kutter design.
We also have Yahoo Group for 'SchiefBuilders' https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/schiefbuilders/info

- Dave
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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Ken, Peter, Stuart and David

thank you very much for your comments.

@Ken Yes WL but I'm most interested to see how it performs in CaK and Ca II H. I have mounted a Beloptik UV/IR cut half way up the tube. It seems to work. How good I can only tell when I had the first light.

@Peter no political discussions here ;-) :lol:

@David thank you very much for your offer. I'm always open for hints and help. It seems that I need longer arms for the justage of the secondary. I'm not yet there where I want to be. The stars could be a tad smaller and rounder. The good thing with the lichtenknecker is, that it has only two screws on each mirror.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
Here is how I align my Schief using a laser collimator

1) Place the laser collimator in the focuser
2) Adjust the tip and tilt of the focuser so the laser beam hits the center of the secondary
3) Adjust the the tip and tilt of the secondary so the laser beam hits the center of the primary
4) Adjust the tip and tilt of the primary so the beam hits the center of the secondary and back on the laser spot in the center of the secondary.
5) Remove the laser from the focuser and look up the tube. You'll see the secondary cutting into the image of the primary
6) Continue looking into the focuser at the secondary mirror and using just the screw marked "M" on the primary mirror cell, discrease the tilt of the primary so the reflection of secondary and any part of the tube in the primary mirror just moves off the edge of the primary and it is not visible. At this point you should see no reflections of any part of the telescope in the primary.
7) Point the telescope at a bright star and center it in the eyepiece. Now defocus the star. It will most likely be slightly oval shaped.
8) Again just using the screw marked "M" on the mirror cell, continue to move the tilt of the primary away from the secondary. After each small adjustment, recenter the defocused star. It should only take a small movement of the primary to get a perfectly round image of the defocused star when it is the center of the field.
9) Bring the star to a sharp focus and if the seeing is good you should see a perfect Airy disk, ie a dot with one or more diffraction rings around it, just like a high quality refractor but without any chromatic aberration.

By the way, the "M" on the back of the mirror cell stands for the meridional plane and the "S" for the sagittal plane.

You might also want to add an optical finder vs using a Telrad. I found that the high power views that a Schief provides requires an optical finder to center objects in the eyepiece.

- Dave


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much. Most helpfull. is there also a procedure to get rid of the clouds ;-)


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by marktownley »

swisswalter wrote: is there also a procedure to get rid of the clouds ;-)
Yes, send one piece of solar equipment per week to me in England, you will be clear of all clouds in no time ;) :lol: :seesaw


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by sullij1 »

BIZARRE! Good luck with that! :D


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by Sungazer »

Hi Walter, A very nice telescope,i hope you enjoy your new toy!! Many years ago I built a 4" F 20 model, which performed very well on the moon and planets. but never used it on the Sun, I was advised by the late David Sinden, if you viewed the sun you should use uncoated mirrors to avoid overheating. Just a thought. Thank you for your kind Email when I joined. John.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by alex »

Enjoy it to the maximum Walter :band :band


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by manu41 »

it is beautiful this Schiefspiegler :hamster:


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark, Joe, John, Alex and Manu


thank you very much.

@Mark no way. I wish that you have sunshine :lol:

@John overheating seems not to be a big problem judging from the little time I used it through the trees with a Beloptik UV/IR cut inside the tube after the secondary. The real test however will come hopefully that month.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

DavidG wrote:Walter,
Here is how I align my Schief using a laser collimator

1) Place the laser collimator in the focuser
2) Adjust the tip and tilt of the focuser so the laser beam hits the center of the secondary
3) Adjust the the tip and tilt of the secondary so the laser beam hits the center of the primary
4) Adjust the tip and tilt of the primary so the beam hits the center of the secondary and back on the laser spot in the center of the secondary.
5) Remove the laser from the focuser and look up the tube. You'll see the secondary cutting into the image of the primary
6) Continue looking into the focuser at the secondary mirror and using just the screw marked "M" on the primary mirror cell, discrease the tilt of the primary so the reflection of secondary and any part of the tube in the primary mirror just moves off the edge of the primary and it is not visible. At this point you should see no reflections of any part of the telescope in the primary.
7) Point the telescope at a bright star and center it in the eyepiece. Now defocus the star. It will most likely be slightly oval shaped.
8) Again just using the screw marked "M" on the mirror cell, continue to move the tilt of the primary away from the secondary. After each small adjustment, recenter the defocused star. It should only take a small movement of the primary to get a perfectly round image of the defocused star when it is the center of the field.
9) Bring the star to a sharp focus and if the seeing is good you should see a perfect Airy disk, ie a dot with one or more diffraction rings around it, just like a high quality refractor but without any chromatic aberration.

By the way, the "M" on the back of the mirror cell stands for the meridional plane and the "S" for the sagittal plane.

You might also want to add an optical finder vs using a Telrad. I found that the high power views that a Schief provides requires an optical finder to center objects in the eyepiece.

- Dave

Hi David

I need your help very badly. I'm not getting every where. I did as you wrote and get the laser pointer light back onto the laser pointer it self but that's all. No sharp views on the moon nor on Jupiter. Just barely see the moons of Jupiter, no sharpness.

Looking up the tube, I see something like a full moon beeing covered almost full with a thumb :oops: I seem to have miss aligned the scope very badly


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
When you look up the focuser, the only thing you should see is the primary mirror and with nothing in it. If your seeing part of the tube or the secondary mirror then the tilt of the primary is not great enough.
Here are some pictures that show what you should see when you use the laser and your Schief is aligned correctly.
The laser should hit the center of the secondary mirror. It should then hit the center of the primary mirror. The laser should not hit any part of the tube. When the primary tilt is adjusted correctly you should only see the primary mirror as a perfect circle when you look up the focuser. The primary tilt is adjusted so the reflection of the secondary is moved just off the edge of the primary so it is no longer visible.

- Dave
Attachments
schiefupfocuser.JPG
schiefupfocuser.JPG (36.82 KiB) Viewed 4656 times
schiefprimary.JPG
schiefprimary.JPG (45.82 KiB) Viewed 4656 times
Schiefsecondary.JPG
Schiefsecondary.JPG (39.96 KiB) Viewed 4656 times


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much. That is of great help. I had the beam on the secondary and well centered on the primary. But then I moved the primary in such a way, that the beam off the primary came back onto the secondary and not as you show on the third pic off into the nirwana. Now your help gives me hope to move on.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

here are my pics from the aligning session from today

Laserpoint on the secondary
laseronsecondary.jpg
laserpoint on the primary
laseronprimary.jpg
laserpoint on the primary close up
laseronprimarycloseup.jpg
looking up the tube after the job
viewupthetube.jpg


result on the sun nada ;-( (elongated spots and not sharp)


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
In your picture looking up the focuser I can still see the edge of the tube so your primary mirror is still not adjusted correctly. It looks to me that your primary is both out of adjustment in the plane that the mirrors moves when you turn the screws for the "M" plane and also the "S" plane.
You want to first adjust the primary mirror so the laser being reflected off it falls back on the center of the secondary. Then using only two of the screws on the back of the mirror cell, decrease the tilt of the primary so it follows the line I added to your image. Remove the laser and look up the focuser and keep decreasing the tilt so you only see the primary as a perfect circle.

- Dave
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Schief1.JPG
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Schief2.JPG
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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much for your analysis. I'll give it a go tomorrow and will Report again


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
I added more information to your picture. Once you tilt the primary so the laser spot falls back on the center of the secondary you should be able to move the primary in the plane shown by the red lines and the laser should hit the spot marked as red dots. If you continue to increase the tilt of the primary, the laser should hit the bottom of the opening in the tube in the exact middle of it. If you then start to decrease the tilt of the primary, the laser should then again fall back on the center of the secondary mirror and move in the direction of the arrow. It should hit the top of the opening in the exact center as well.
You don't want the laser to move up or down but to follow a path that would divide the telescope exactly in half. This is meridional plane of the optics.
The primary mirror cell should be aligned so the mirror moves in two planes that are 90 degrees to each other and the "M" axis aligned with the meridional plane of the telescope but the mirror cell might be twisted and the movements of it is not aligned with the meridional plane of the telescope.
Was this scope totally made by Lichtenknecker or was parts of built from a kit ?

- Dave
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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much for the additional explanation. The scope was made by Lichtenknecker, Belgium, so no modification at all.

Doing the alignment I can move the laserpoint along a thin line across the Primary mirror. No Problem with tat, but I can not move the laserpoint coming back from the Primary mirror into the secondery. (see your pic schiefsecondary and my pic laseronsecondary) The red dot coming frrom the Primary is out side the tube.

I will now restart the whole process. First I'm setting back all M and S screws to Zero, make a mirror cover for the secondary and the Primary with a cross at the Center. Then start with the secondary pointing the laser to the cross on the center, then tilting the secondary so the laserpointer hit the center cross of the primary. next I move the secondary out of the view using just screw M on the Primary. I'll get there, it is just a question of time, but since it is raining there is no need to rush.


A remark to my pic viewupthe tube: Looking up the tube I do not see any sign of the secondary inthe Primary but since the camera is well aligned you see some of the edge of the tube


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
When the primary is aligned correctly, the laser being reflected off it should be around 62.5mm (125/2) from the edge of the secondary. It may be much more depending on the design. So if you taped a piece of paper off the back of the secondary mirror cell you can use that as a target to align the primary.
You don't have to adjust the primary so the laser is again hitting the center of the secondary. Why I do that step is I then know the primary is tilted correctly in the "S" plane and over tilted in the "M" plane. So in theory I just need to adjust the tilt in the "M" plane until the secondary is no longer visible in the primary when looking up the focuser. I then know I will be very close to having the optics in perfect alignment. I can then use an out of focus star to achieve perfect alignment and I only need to continue to move the mirror in the "M" plane.
If you can get the design from Lichtenknecker I can raytrace it and determine the angles and spacing and then determine exactly how far the laser beam should be from the edge of the secondary.
By the way is there no other lens in the secondary tube or one that came with it that is not installed ? There are two versions of the Kutter Schiefspiegler. When the aperture is small, as in 110mm only the two mirrors are required in the optical system. When the aperture is increased to 150mm, one can either increase the focal length to about F/30 and use only two mirrors or if you want a faster f-ratio you need to use an additional weak plano convex lens that is tilted to correct for the astigmatism. With yours being 125mm it maybe designed to use only two mirrors or require the lens corrector and it might be missing.

- Dave
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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David


thank you so much for your additional information. I see your point in doing the alignment in such away. I followed the way lichtenknecker suggested. I can follow your drawing and got the following results on my dining table (don't tell my wife ;-)

centered on the primary with a mask
laserpointontheprimarywithmask.jpg

almost centered at the secondary (mask has to be done later on)
laserpointonsecondarywithoutmask.jpg
result on the laserpointer
reflectionbackontothelaser.jpg

looking up the tube (shows was lichtenknecker explains what has to be seen)
lookingupthetubeexplained.jpg


Don't you agree that it is not bad aligned when the laserpointer is hitting itself after travelling 7 m . The fine tuning is any way done on the star (if clouds permitt) ?


I seem not to be missing a part . There is also no place where I would think has to be something introduced into the optical train


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

hurray, it's not much, but at least I could just see some trees very sharp in the far distance, maybe 2 KM away. Hoping that the clouds go away to see the moon.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,
Excellent alignment so far. You just need to tilt the primary away from the secondary so it is no longer is visible in the when you look up the focuser. In your picture, showing what you see when looking up the tube, your at Step 3 in my drawing. The primary mirror is looking at the secondary and not at the sky. You need to now do Step 4. At that point the laser beam should be hitting the wall in your dinning room and pointing at the position of the object you would be looking at in the telescope. If you measure from the edge of the secondary to were the laser beam is located, it should be at least 62.5mm away.
Here is a drawing that shows the optical path of your Schief and were the laser is pointed at each step in the alignment procedure.

- Dave
Attachments
opticalpathschief.JPG
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Last edited by DavidG on Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much for these details. I'll have ago at it. I've already seen it is very simple to turn the laserpoint away from the secondary using the M screw in the meridional plane. It follows the line straight . I'll report again . Thanks for your patience


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

step four done. I'm not far of the 62.5 mm depending on where I hold the ruler on. Looking up the tube I see nothing but the primary. I wonder how that looks on the moon ;-) . I guess I have to wait a couple of days. the laser still points to the middle of the primary give or take a Millimeter. is that o.k. ?


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by marktownley »

Interesting thread guys! :)


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

swisswalter wrote:Hi David

step four done. I'm not far of the 62.5 mm depending on where I hold the ruler on. Looking up the tube I see nothing but the primary. I wonder how that looks on the moon ;-) . I guess I have to wait a couple of days. the laser still points to the middle of the primary give or take a Millimeter. is that o.k. ?
Walter,
You should be very close to having the optics very well aligned. The Moon will look good but stars most likely will still be slightly oval shaped. When the weather is clear or if you can observe a glint of Sunlight off a far off object to act as a artificial star you can get the alignment perfect. Center the star in the middle of the eyepiece and then slightly defocus it so it breaks up in to diffraction rings. It most likely will look ellipical in shape with the long axis of the ellipse in the "M" plane. Now slowly decrease the tilt of the primary so it continues to move away from the secondary mirror. The star will move toward the edge of the eyepiece. Move the star back into the center of the eyepiece. It should look rounder. If it does continue tilting the primary in that direction and keep recentering the star. It should only take a small movement of the tilt of the primary to make the out of focus star perfectly round.
A bit of warning thou, seeing conditions and the fact the tube is open can make it difficult to judge when the out of focus star is perfectly round but you'll be able to get it close and tune up the alignment when the seeing allows. With the alignment close the image should be very sharp. Jupiter should show detail in the clouds and not just three band. Mars as well should show a good amount of detail if the seeing is good. Double stars like Rigel should be an easy split and the star should show a clean Airy disk.

- Dave


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much so far. I can't wait for a cloudless night. I'll report as soon as possible


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi cracks

just looked at the moon, crackling sharp. I have to wait until the stars pop out. Very happy at the moment. I know from taking flats on the sun today, that there is fine alignment work to be done. I'll report again


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi cracks

I did take some AVIs which I show here and you can easely see that it is not precisely aligned and above all I was not able to have clean stars. I had always two tailed comets. The scope is back on the bench and hopefully soon I can restart the alignement


moon with AS

Moon_09042014_200610.jpg

moon with RS

Moon_200610_regi6pp.jpg

Jupiter missalignment highlightened to show the problem
jupitest_09042014_204452.jpg
jupitest_09042014_204452.jpg (107.71 KiB) Viewed 3776 times


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by DavidG »

Walter,

You need to do the final alignment on a defocused star. You most likely only need to adjust the primary in the "M" plane so the primary mirror is tilted a little bit more away from the secondary. Remember to recenter the star in the eyepiece after each adjustment.


- Dave


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi David

thank you very much. Yes I hope it will need only adjusting the M screw. The next clear night is spent again on the kutter. I'll Report again


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by GreatAttractor »

Walter, did you succeed with collimation?

I've been reading for some time about Schiefs and I love the idea (and their looks!). Planetary-useful aperture (say, 250 mm) would be impractical, but a 120-130 mm for some H-alpha solar work - this could be interesting. It seems the only good place for a subaperture ERF (to keep the main structure open) would be in the small tube, after the secondary mirror. But this means the small ERF would be subjected to some 3-4x greater than normal irradiance, I wonder if it could take it in the long term (not to mention warming up of the secondary - thermals? Disturbed figure?).


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by eroel »

Walter:
Beautiful instrument, you will love it.
Regards,
Eric,


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Re: Appenzellersun, first light in the hand, Schiefspiegler/

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Filip, Hi Eric

thank you very much.

@Filip I have not yet found any time to work with the lichtenknecker. We hope here for a fine Indian summer to work more on the mods.


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