From 50 to 60 DS?

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From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:41 pm

I am using a lunt 60 pressure tuned with a DS50. For the prominences I usually stay in the single stack mode because the proms are better defined, larger and more extended. For the disc I go to Double stacking.
I Always do binoviewing with most of the time the 18.2 Delites and the Delos 10mm, sometimes I grab the TV plossls32 for an overview.
My question is: does it make a clear step upward when I go from 50 to 60 DS?
Is it worth the (huge) pricetag or should I stay with the 50 mm?
I know of course the theoretical explanation but what is the practise based experience?
Oh, I do use a dark shroud/ towel over my head, that does help a lot for image brightness.
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Derek Klepp » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:46 am

Honestly I would save your money I don,t think it would be a big enough difference.You would be better going for 100mm if you really want a wow factor

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:10 pm

Thanks for reply. I already thought so and the additional money is substantial.
I will stay with the 50 DS and indeed will upgrade in the future to maybe a 100 or even 150 mm.
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:32 pm

Everybody agree with Derek that its not a real difference between the DS50 and DS60? Strange, why are these two versions on the market?
Don't do people have other experience?
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:57 pm

Nobody?
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Bob Yoesle » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:39 pm

Diameter improvement: delta 10 mm / 50 mm = 20 %

Area improvement: delta 863.5 mm ^2/ 1962.5 mm^2 = 44 %

The DS 60 will give you a 20% increase in resolution and a 44% in crease in image brightness. This would be a noticeable difference to me. Especially for binoviewing, the increased brightness and the real and perceived resolution increase might be useful. Again, this could be a subjective assessment, and of course larger apertures will give a greater improvement.

Removing the DS filters redundant RG630 ERF will give you another 10% in image brightness.
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar B » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:38 am

Imho I reckon opting for a 60/60 over a 60/50 would achieve about a 5 to 10% gain in reality regardless of the maths ... if requiring greater mags then try a Quark (hard work but the mags are of the scale) however that's not necessarily any advantage at all upon viewing our glorious luminary.
If image brightness is an issue then BFs (certainly Coronado / Lunt ? can be adjusted accordingly)

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Bob Yoesle » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:58 am

The improvement will be subjective, as especially our perception of brightness is different from the numerical value due to the accommodation capabilities of the eye. With a camera the improvement would be readily apparent for reducing exposure times.

Whether or not it is significant to you is easily determined -- just do a test with the scope in single stacked mode using an aperture mask. The change in resolution should be evaluated under excellent seeing conditions. The change in image brightness will be relatively the same in SS vs. DS mode, since you will be using similar DS etalons from the same vendor.

I'm not sure how one would make an adjustment or change with blocking filters, other than if the image is too bright, where you can reduce the intensity using ND filters, etc. Generally this is the opposite of what one encounters, especially with double stacking (and binoviewing of course exacerbates this.) Therefore this is where I feel the increased aperture will be more significant in regard to image brightness vs. resolution, and why I also generally advise removing the redundant ERF from the DS etalon... which in this case would result in about a 55% total increase in image brightness.

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:19 pm

Be carefull about the removing suggestion Bob, you know how the moderator on CN forum responded on our discussion :). We know however that it is totally save as long as we use it as a DS. I will give it a try soon. You are sure it doesn't damage the filter and reassembling is easy?
Nevertheless thanks for the respons. I already made an aperture mask for testing the difference in SS mode. In Winter the sun in Holland is very low on the horizon so maybe I can do the test better in the beginning of next year. The point is is such an amount of money otherwise I would buy a 60DS right nowin addition.
For the first few years I don' t expect to have the money for a bigger Lunt so I like to get all the capacities of my Lunt 60.
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar B » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:33 pm

Hello Bob

Yes everything is subjective to the individual ... having replaced the rusty ITF on my
BF5 with this maierphotonics.com/656bandpassfilter.aspx

I note the difference in brightness is astonishing !! (at only 40mm)
so I'd recommend that anyone suffering with a dull image through their Coronado (via their BF) do the same :)

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:47 pm

But is that difference because of the quality or the transmission charactics of a BF instead of the mm's? The diameter only influences the AFOV, right? As far as I am informed the BF of the Lunt is very good and let enough light pass, I've got the 12mm, thinking thats plenty.
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar B » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:50 pm

Yes the Lunt 12mm BFs are fine I've owned / used a few ... so that's kinda the
end of the discussion :) ... I had to change an ITF on a 5 recently but will be replacing another on a BF10 shortly so ... I'm personally "delighted" with the Maier ITF option ... brings DS to me at 40mm to an another level :)

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Bob Yoesle » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:12 am

Both Lunt and Solarscope have abandoned the ITF apparently due to the thermal cycling premature deterioration issues. For long wave IR Lunt uses a BG filter, and Solarscope uses a KG3. Of course other UV and IR blocking elements are used in the filter "stew" to ensure safety: http://luntsolarsystems.com/lunt-solar-safety/

Removing the ERF form the DS eltalon is completely safe, as the host solar telescope already incorporates this element. This will result in a ~ 8-10% increase in image brightness: http://www.astrossp.unam.mx/filters/bch ... nglish.htm

The main issue is keeping dust off the now-exposed etalon, and the lack of IR blocking for the etalon itself, which may result in some thermal stability issues. My recommendation is to use an IR blocking pre-filter ahead of the etalon, such as the Astronomik L (UV/IR) filter that has a transmission of > 98% at 656 nm: http://www.astronomik.com/en/photograph ... ilter.html

It is available in custom sizes up to 75 mm in diameter, so getting it to fit in place of the ERF would be rather easy: http://www.astronomik.com/en/available- ... sizes.html
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by marktownley » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:49 am

I guess another way of doing this would be to see if there is another solar observer, or astronomy retailer nearby that sells the 60mm ds etalon and give it a try?
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Dobber » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:44 pm

Thanks! I will report my impressions soon, after the modifying or switch with the 60.
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by thesmiths » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:26 am

I have a 60/60 Lunt DS and in retrospect I think upgrading to a 80mm or 100m SS would be a more satisfying investment (assuming financial constraints).

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar B » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:03 pm

Agreed ... 50/50 , 60/50 , 60/60 there's little actual gain in visible resolution.

You've got to up the aperture big style to see anything really different.

but then as I keep saying is upping the ap a real benefit/improvement at all ?

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar-Cologne » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:32 am

Hello Dobber ?

I am a new Member here, from Germany.

But i am not a Newcomer in Solar Observing especially H-Alpha. Sorry, my english is bad !!
I am 58 Years old and studied Photoingeneering/Optik, ect, here in Cologne.
I know personally, here in Germany, Oliver Smie and Wolfgang Lille, the two H-alpha Enthusiasts.

Whe often phone about H-Alpha Scopes and the Problems.
I know your problem exactly....
An DS 60 is not the solution. Oh, i must google and translate to find the right words.... :mrgreen:

Sincs 4 Years, i visit in Germany every Telescope-Meeting where H-Alpha Scopes present, incl. Bresser/Lunt Sun-Day.
With my H-Alpha Friend Peter, we looked to every Scope, you can bye.
Peter has an PST-Mod, LUNT LS35, LS60, two LS60 Doublestack-Frontetalons and an W.Lille 20/20-System.
I have a little bit more..... :D
We know them all, Coronados, Lunts ans Solarscope, only the Coronado 140 Frontetalon i dont know.
The Daystar-Quark is an other Theme.

The best one are the PST and the LS35
The others are in Single-Stack Mode to Dark.
In Doublestack they are more darker and you can see only a little bit H-Alpha, or sometimes nothing, its terrible for me.

With my PST-Mod, an old Bresser FH-Refractor 6" f8, eff. 120mm Diameter, 135er C-ERF, PST-Conversions-Kit from Oliver Smie, Zeiss-Abbe-Barlow, original 5mm BF !!!
Every Time with good Seeing we can look with 192x on the Disk of the Sun....beautiful, and the same at the little, little Prominences at the edge of the Sun.
Many H-Alpha Enthusiasts are every Time very surprised.
With an original H-Alpha Scope, which you can bye......no chance, all of them.
Its all tested, this is my experience.

There is a Solution to your Problem.
But, and this is my Problem, i dont wont to make a mistake, so I can not publish it.
May I talk to you privately, like a PM or Mail ?

sunny Greeetings :D
Achim

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by marktownley » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:15 pm

You can post anything you want on here Achim that is solar related, even if it is to do with modding. :)
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Rybak » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:36 pm

Hi Achim
What is "PST-Conversions-Kit from Oliver Smie"? I did not find it on beloptik site. Thanks.
Aleksey

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Lunt LS100THa, Coronado SolarMax II 90 Filter + BF 15 on WO Megrez 90, PST + SW 1025 mod, Quark + SW150/750 in test mode

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar-Cologne » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:46 pm

Hi Aleksey,

I know Oliver for a long time, before he started with his Company (Beloptik).
This PST-Kit is not a Produkt from Beloptik.

It is the Conversions-Mod to remove the PST-Housing.

But this Kit has a big Mistake.
The origanal Light-path from the backside Telezentrik-Lens to the Eyepiece is 200mm.
My Kit has a Light-path from only 145mm !
With a Zeiss-Abbe-Barlow, monocular, its the best H-Alpha id ever seen in a PST-Mod.
Every Time, when good Seeing, 192x.....wouw, beautiful, with 120mm Diameter and 2400mm Focal length.

Here a Picture.

sunny Greetings :D
Achim
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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Rybak » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:28 pm

Achim thanks for the detailed explanation.
Aleksey

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Solar-Cologne » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:06 am

Hi Aleksey, my pleasure.

Hi Mark,

I am careful, because this is an open Forum. Everybody can read here, the Factorys too.

I send you a PM.

sunny Greetings :D
Achim

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Re: From 50 to 60 DS?

Post by Calavera » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:21 am

Hi Dobber,

if owning a 60mm SS scope a 50mm DS wouldn´t be a solution for me - aside if money is the limiting factor of course!

But why should I go with 50 if 60 is possilbe??? You can just buy a Solarmax 60 filter too - for mine I just payed 1k EUR together with a BF15 - the adapter to put them together was about 70,- EUR - and the result is better then with the original Lunt 60 DS unit. AND I only need one tilting screw... It worked at my Lunt LS60THa as well as on my Solarscope SV60 as you can read in the actual threads.

I bought all the scopes just for testing it out for myself and will stay with the Solarscope 60 in combination with the Solarmax 60 filter.

Cheers
Chris
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