A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

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A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi all

I did some of my home work which I promised to do ;-) and found to my surprise something else as expected

The last filter element towards the recording device is a square filter stack

viewed at a flat angle





viewed at a steeper angle






the stack on its own

viewed at a flat angle





viewed at a steep angle







and from the other side


flat angle







steep angle







it seems to be a stack of two filters, one of them has an additional thick coating on top of it. So infact there are three layers.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

That homework is a 10 out of 10 Walter. Very interesting inside the Lunt, we weren't expecting that...


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

thank you very much. indeed very interesting and may be a reason why it is quite expensive


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi all

more information about the filter stack, a close up through the microscope






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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by sullij1 »

Extraordinary work Walter. Now if we can identify the passband of the two filters we will be a lot smarter. :) Thanks!


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Joe

thank you very much. What sort of resolutions has the spectrometer to have to give us enough information ?


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by sullij1 »

THAT sounds like a question Merlin could answer for us, if we can get his attention. ;)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by Merlin66 »

You have my attention....
Walter, if the local school or college/university has a spectroscope, with at least resolution of 1A (R=400) for the detail of the bandwidth - I assume around 390-400nm and a lower res say 5-10A for the full spectrum ( to check for resonance bands)that would be great....


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Ken

thank you very much. I'll try to find a spectrometer. So far I have seen only instruments who run from 190 nm to 900 nm but with a resolution of only 2 nm. I guess that is not good enough.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

It's curious about this little square filter, the one (it's equivalent) in the CaK PST is definitely only one peice of glass, most like your 393sp...


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

that is a bit surprising that the CaK has a small square filter too. Has it the same size? 14x14 mm (the squares on the paper are 4x4 mm)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

We just had some sunshine so I could look throuth the filter by eye.

- the doubel pair of "hot mirror" on the lunt wedge are optically less dense then the K-Line filter

- the 393sp filter is optically much denser then the last filterstack in the LUNT wedge

- the color of the LUNT filterstack and the 393sp are different

- using the 393sp behind the LUNT wedge (only the hot mirrors)we could not notice any light at all

We will do more of our home work, sunshine provided ;)









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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

and here another interesting finding


the little square filterstack of the LUNT wedge shows clearly the aperture copied into it. I tryed do shoot a pic of that deterioration of the filter, but I was not successful





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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

It's interesting walter, whilst not we might have expected it does show the Lunt caK and Coronado CaK are completely different beasts...


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

I like monsters and riddles ;-) We now have sunshine on the other side of the house :angry:


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by Merlin66 »

Walter,
yes, 20A resolution isn't enough to give the bandwidth detail you need to see.....


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Ken

thank you. I'll try to get a measurement at an university spectrometer.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi all

some food for Ken ;-)

Overview of 3 filters





close up of the ROI





overview of the hotmirror stack







close up of the ROI





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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by sullij1 »

Interesting, the Lunt stack has a very low transmission.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Joe

yes indeed. As seen by naked eye. I also find that the LUNT stack is narrower in bandwith. I wonder what would happen if we stack two of the 393sp filters. I'm sure Ken can tell us.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

Wow, Walter, you have been taking your homework seriously!

We must have had the same things on our minds today - I was talking to the good people at Edmunds optics regards some detailed transmission data for some of their filters - which they duly supplied... ;)

It's interesting how the yellow lunt filter and the sp393 are the same species of filter, I really do suspect the yellow CaK PST filter is also in the same family.

Do you have a larger version of the ROI plot? Or even better some percentage figures? I would love to put them in my filter spreadsheet and compare to some of the plots i've been getting. At the medium scale the plots are very similar to nearly identical, but, in CaK imaging nearly isn't good enough...

Exciting times! :)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

thank you very much. I sent you some data files to look deeper into it ;-) In the short time, I did not have the time to organize for a good resolution scan. The graphs I showed are taken with a simple Cary 1E spectrophotometer which hangs around in my lab


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

my boss did let me take some more scans. I checked the alignement with the continuum filter


here the graph





The continuum filters has according to the baader scan the max T at 537 nm, I found 536.6 nm. The max transition should be just above 90 % I found the same. I would conclude out of these findings that my spectrophotometer is in good shape. What do you think ?


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi all

another interesting finding


here are the graphs from the two Omega Bob filters





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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

Interesting stuff Walter, would appear the Continuum has a slight UV leak to it, definitely reason to use the UV/IR cut with it.

from what you've said the spectrometer appears to be spot on with the continuum, but in the close ups in particular seemed to be shifted to the blue by 1-2nm - eg the Lunt curve peaks at 390-391nm, not 393, same with the 393sp - curious... :s

The omega bobs have broad sides to the curve, which is the reason they don't give that contrasty view of the lunt I guess...


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

I put your numbers into my spreadsheet too Walter, using a blue shift of 2nm. I wonder if the 387nm and K-line might just work?









The resultant curve with it and the K-line is certainly tighter than that the sp393. I'm tempted to get one of these and try it out. The one from edmunds optics (of which this is the curve) has much steeper sides than an alternative one I found...


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

thank you very much for your input. You have more details in your mail box. I first have to learn to use a spectrophotometer :blush:

the lunt is spot on on 393 nm




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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

very interesting graphs. I do not know at the moment why there is a difference. Maybe Ken can give me a hint to check my spectrophotometer. Is there a substance I can check on a single peak to confirm or not, that the readings are correct?


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

that 387 and the K-Line looks very promissing. But didn't you already try it whith moderate success?


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

I will plug the new figures in the spreadheet and feedback with some new graphs. The latest closeup plot looks alot more like what we would expect ;)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

I would like to learn to work with your spreadsheet. Any chance to get a copy of it ?


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

just emailed it to you ;)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

thank you very, very much. I'll jump into it


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by Merlin66 »

Walter,
Amateurs use the neon (or mercury) lamps for calibration...I'm not sure if this is possible with your spectroscope. There must be a reference lamp/ absorption cell in the lab somewhere - they also need to occasionally re-calibrate their instruments.
Drop me an email if you need more info.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

Slow on the reply here, I just plugged in the 'updated' data for the lunt and sp393 into the spreadsheet walter and the following curve came out...




I think it looks a bit more like we would expect to... When we look at it in this context it is easy to see how much broader the passband of the sp393 is compared to the Lunt, this is why it doesn't have the contrast of the Lunt unit. However, the 387nm K-line combo curve when we look in comparison to the Lunt curve is positively more interesting, to the point I have gone and ordered one... It will be very interesting to see the results I get back from it - this does mean the return of 40 days and nights of biblical rain for the UK.

Even if the 387nm K-line combo does not work, it will work with the CaK PST front filter and will give twice as much transmission (hence half the exposure time) compared to what i'm getting with the K-line as a blocker. So, there should be some positive outcome here.

I will report back as soon as I take delivery and get chance to test out.

Mark :)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Ken, Hi Mark


I´m contacting you as soon as I´m back from my trip to germany.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by Merlin66 »

That's OK...
We're off to the Port Fairy Folk Festival...(aging hippies!)
http://www.portfairyfolkfestival.com/?page_id=116


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Ken

have fun ;-)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Oliver

I just took home my brand new beloptic filters ;-)

they look great, perfect workman craft, thank you very much. I found these readings in my humble spectrophotometer and think it is matching your plots





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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

That looks a fun plot Walter, I must admit I have delayed my purchase of one of these filters as funds have been directed towards the 387nm filter, however, Oliver, don't worry, I will be buying one of these KG3 UV/IR filters before too long... ;)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by sullij1 »

Excellent work fellas> :thumbsup: Walter, regarding the Omega pair, is there a way to visually tell the 393 from the 395?

BTW my IR/UV also arrived. Unfortunately it is storming here. :)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Joe

I can't make out a difference between the two filters by eye. We may have sunshine today and I will look into the sun with them and report again


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Joe

we had some sunshine and I was able to look trough the filters at the sun. In each case there is a bright blue/violett sun, I have not detected a difference between the two filters, they look just the same in brithness and colorwise. It seems that my eyes can't resolve down to two nanometers, but I don't think I have to go to the optician ;-)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

The 387nm filter arrived today: It has been raining now continuously for near 48 hours. I met a man called Noah today, he was sailing down the road in a large wooden boat he called an ark, when I looked closely he had two of each animal aboard his chosen mode of transport.

I await a break from the cloud Gods, this weekend looks very unlikely, but maybe next week after work will reveal some clear skies...

Await updates on the 387..


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by colinsk »

My eye lens is opaque to this frequency, or nearly. I am jealous of those who can still see this blue. I have lasers that are in this range and they have to be very bright for me to see the beam's spot.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

I know that men, He just passed by in a huge boat. Me too I looked closer and saw he also has a pair of each filter on board ;-) Can't wait to see your first results with the 387


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Colin


the bob filters have quite a hight transmission, I'm sure you would see the blue too.


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by marktownley »

I am able to do a little bit of a report back here:

In the absence of any real sunshine, the cloudy sky still has enough 393nm light in it for me to see the silhouettes of the trees / houses etc on the horizon against the purple of the sky, and so, as a result, did a 'hold the filter closely to the eye and do the see what can be seen test'.

With the Baader K-Line alone the sky is really bright, and can see features in the silhouettes - eg on the white paint on a door frame where it is reflecting UV.

With the 387nm alone the sky is really bright again, and can see features in the silhouettes as above. The image is not quite as bright, nor the violet purpley as vibrant as that with the K-Line. I think this is a result of the shorter wavelength or my eye rather than the filter itself, as the 387 has a higher % transmission compared to the K-Line.

With the Baader K-Line and the PST CaK shortpass I can just, if I allow my eye to become dark adapted for a minute or so see the reflections off white objects, the sky / silhouettes are visible after about 10 seconds of dark adaptation.

With the 387nm and the PST CaK shortpass if my eye dark adapts for about 45 seconds I am able to see the reflections off white objects, the sky /silhouettes are visible after about 5-10 seconds dark adaptation.

With the K-Line 387nm combination, the sky and silhouettes are immediately visible, and with 5-10 seconds dark adaptation the reflections of white objects are visible. The image is quite noticeably dimmer than the K-line or the 387nm individually, but quite a bit brighter than with either when used with the PST CaK shortpass.

With all three filters, K-line, 387nm & PST CaK Shortpass the image is quite dim, taking some 20+ seconds to see the sky / silhouettes, and some 2 minutes of dark adaptation to see the reflections, but, these were faint and on the threshold of my vision.

Soooo, a bit of a semi subjective science experiment. What does it tell me?

Well, first off I don't think the 387nm and K-line when used together will give CaK like image we are used to, I suspect a 'washed out' ghost like version will result; though, I may be wrong and hope I am! Secondly I think the 387 will work well with the PST CaK shortpass filter to give us CaK like we are familiar with, a view the same as with the K-Line and PST CaK Shortpass, but, with higher transmission and hence shorter exposures. Thirdly, I wonder, if all three filters are used together this will give a 'trimmed' CaK view with a higher contrast (at the expense of shorter exposure) as Walter has found with some of his stacked combinations he has been trying.

I think the results above confirm what the 'theory' from the transmission curves produced in Excel predicted, which is good as shows the logic we are applying is along the right lines. Now, all I can do is wait for the sun to return to test this further! :)


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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Mark

thank you very much for that report. You will certainly produce very interesting results in each case.

Now you take the CaK riddle from the blue side with your 387nm filter. Why not taking it from the red side too?. I just have found a 403 nm filter in my famous cabinet and will run a transmission curve on it.

Stay tuned


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

from 7 am - 7 pm http://www.nanosys.ch

from 7.01 pm - 6.59 am http://www.wastronomiko.com some times vice versa ;)
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Re: A surprise in the LUNT CaK wedge

Post by BelOptik_Oliver »

Hi everyone,

Currently the winter goes continue without end! No sun! :( I need a clouds driller!
Thanks Walter for measurement the UV/IR cut on KG3 and please tell us your experience with him in Ca-K or Ca-H? observation! I'm curious if the filter yet transmit them.

Mark, no problem. I raise one pcs up on for you.

Oliver


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