CONTACT!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:36 pm

ok its a fluke... and it may be no good.... but you must go to my flickr and watch the first video. Im sure the smart folks out there will be able to explain and possible take something away from this!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98998648@N07/10653396846/

Post by **marktownley** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:50 pm

That's pretty darn cool! I hope it works - I may have to have another go at mine...

sullij1 · Post by **sullij1** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:03 pm

WhooHoo! :woohoo: I will put another tick mark on the few storis of success! Congrats! Hope it works out for you.

:cheer:

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:10 pm

Thanks guys! I know its not tested yet.... But in order for contact to happen, the unit must be squared up otherwise the plates could not stick! Now I never saw the four pads on mine.... Only ever 3. But I have to think if the space is even, the thing should work?

Sun is too low to set up now sadly..... But as soon as I can, I will try and grab an image and get it up here!
I had just finished a final cleaning with ccd cleaner. Then I placed the two halves together clean and DRY.... Then twisted them slowly to see if the gap became more even at and location.... I felt a very slight resistance and took a look to see if I was sticking on another spacer. Seeing nothing, i places it on the table and twisted the top again to get the the sticky spot. Then a very light tap. I was afraid to touch it. But as you can see.... Its well stuck!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:54 pm

Youll really have to watch the video. It kinda says it all. It was by feel. As for all other questions... I dunno? Lol it feels pretty solid! But if thats how they go together..... Im sure a simple knock will take them apart! Handle with kid gloves is the key!

uplooker · Post by **uplooker** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:16 pm

Well done Rob. i am sure you are very happy, :rockon: I know you have not tested it yet but fingers crossed that it works out OK. One thing is for sure - whatever it was that you did, you need to bottle it and let all the other people with de-contacted etalons have some

Ian

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:52 pm

Thanks Ian! As much as Im hoping to find its great.... I still have a hard time believing that there isnt a more accurate way of lining up the two plates!

At least I know its do able! We will see if the tuning works out or if there is something more I need to figure out.... But its a good start! :woohoo:

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:43 am

Lucky touch I think buddy! But its not tested yet, so all my happy thoughts could be for not! I guess only time will tell! But its still stuck! Thats something! :woohoo:

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:06 am

Lol buddy my clean room is.... Well...... Easy to make! :whistle: Im looking forward to a test shot! And if it doesnt work... Ill put some water in there... And start over! :woohoo: If it can be done once.....it can be repeated as you say!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:29 am

Hahahaha the only thing clean in that room was the etalon plates! I did wipe the pad I was working on, and had my small squeeze blower to clean off and lint or dust bunnies that rolled by when the furnace kicked in....... So the clean room myth is busted. Mind you... It would likely increase the odds of good contact..... Id not spend time nor money on one.....

I used lint free window wipes to do the cleaning. Nothing special. I did use a lens cleaning cloth on the optical areas as to not scratch anything. Thats about it. I had a greasy etalon assembly 10 inches away with a pile of tooth picks and epoxy for those frustrating moments. I cleaned my plates with the edge of an exacto knife...as seen in the video. Ensuring no goop on the flats. Then.... Click. Joined

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:31 am

Im still worried though. There must be something else involved in the way the disks are turned in relation to each other..... It just cant be that easy! Im not getting my hopes up just yet!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:42 am

Nope. Lol just relying on the fact that they wont connect if the spacers arent all flat and making good contact! I was more wondering about the coatings on each flat and how they must interact? Like a polarizer or something?

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:43 am

If thats the case I may never hit the right alignment!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:02 am

Lol after looking at that I believe it to be a very very small victory.....

hmy:

Post by **Merlin66** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:11 pm

Rob,
The proof of the pudding is in the performance....
Have you had the chance to test the "re-contacted" etalon???
I'm not having the same success as Oliver and yourself....I'll have another go at it later today.....

Post by **Merlin66** » Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:48 am

OK
Tried a total of four times today....
Flooding the plates with acetone, wiping, blow dry only managed to get 5/6 spacers on the edge to contact...tried again - looked good - but no....still one spacer not contacting...bumma.
Again....think all the edge spacers contacted but the sneaky one in the middle (yes there's one there!) didn't...when tested NBG.
Popped apart re-cleaned and flooded, wiped laid together, hit with hair dryer....
and MAYBE, just MAYBE they are all in contact!
I'll re-assemble the housing and try it out.....
Stay tuned...

Post by **marktownley** » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:05 am

Good work Ken! I'm definitely going to have a go at this myself on the PST etalon, it's stored safely. Will have to be a job over Christmas I think. In the mean time I think i'll be paying a visit to the lab up in Science to see what chemicals they have... Keep us informed Ken, perfecting the recontacting of etalons is quite a significant step ...

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:21 am

Im so sorry I havent responded before now. My work has been insane. Havent had a day off in nearly a month. Im hoping to get 1 this wedkdnd. But no I havent tested yet. No time

Hope to soon. Keep twisting Merlin66. Its gonna happen. I can feel it!

Post by **Merlin66** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:39 am

OK got ten minutes of sun today.
Temporarily re-assembled the etalon into the SM40 cell and mounted it on the ol' empty PST OTA.....
Hmmmm

It WORKS!!
No double images, no issues.
The active areas, filaments and the prominent proms all easily visible!!

I'll do a proper cleaning and silicon re-mount the etalon in the cell and get it back to George.
Re-contacting can be done. Not an easy or simple job, but can be done.
I'm pleased,(so far) with the outcome.

Post by **marktownley** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:02 am

I'm pleased to hear it too! Now, need to learn the process myself. Good work here Ken!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:30 pm

Great news Ken! I hope mine has 1 image also! I finally get a day off and its cloudy

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:20 pm

Well i got some chores done and the cloud blew away in fairly strong winds so I scrambled to set up. Then realized I had to wait another hour or so for the sun to appear over my roof..... Its pretty low here now. Sadly, i have multiple images. So something is out of wack. The good thing is, I did it before I can do it again! Any ideas as to what caused that,,,,, and how to try and avoid it? Any way of lining up to improve success?

Post by **Merlin66** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Rob,
You multiple images are caused by the plates not sitting 100% parallel to each other.
The spacers are not full contacted....

Based on my work, I'd say there must be some minor "contamination" holding one or more spacer from being in optical contact.
Double check where the spacers are located around the circumference and put a couple of pencil registration marks on the edge of the disks to guide you to the correct positioning.
I found washing the surfaces with a flood of pure acetone, wiping gently with a clean kitchen towel (I find them "cleaner" than some of the scented tissues)- do this a couple of times. Don't breath on or over the plates!!
Then carefully line up the plates, guide the edges to align the disks and give the top plate a firm push down......wait a couple of minutes ( you can hit the assembly with a blast of WARM air from a hair dryer to speed up the final evaporation of the film of acetone) and if everything was a clean as you hoped the spacers should make good contact.
(I had actually to repeat this a few times before all the spacers joined....)
Hope this helps.

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:39 pm

Many thanks for that info Ken!

:
Im feeling pretty good about a successful connection after being able to get them to stick before! Its just a matter of time before a good contact happens!

Hope your efforts are paying off now! It will be great to solve this issue with a "do able" fix that anyone can do with patience and a little trial n error!

Post by **Merlin66** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:20 pm

Rob,
I suppose if it was easy, everybody would be doing it! ;-)

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:30 pm

Very true! Hopefully a time will come when nobody has to do it! :woohoo:

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:25 am

Hi Rob and Ken

congratulations, that is fantastic. Me too I have to learn your technique. Two etalons are waiting to be washed with aceton ;-)

Post by **Merlin66** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:54 am

Has anyone else had the opportunity to attempt a re-contacting??
Just interested......

Post by **marktownley** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:59 am

No, not yet. That's a job for in the Xmas holidays when I have a bit more time. I have procured the necessary chemicals though

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:49 pm

Here neighter Ken, It'll come

DSobserver · Post by **DSobserver** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:44 pm

walter
if you can take some pictures, that's would be great!!!

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:00 am

Hi Vincent

I will as soon as I start with the job

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:28 pm

Any thoughts on whether or not you could use the little glass covers for microscope flats as new spacers? They are very very thin.... Some sort of glass and im sure easily broken..... Just another random thought from the frozen north....

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:38 pm

Hi Rob

yes, i did a comparison to the actual spacers on the PST etalon and it almost matches the thickness but it is not he same glass (the FTIR plot showes me that it is different)

If nothing works with recontacting the PST etalon I'm going to replace all three spacers with said glass chips ;-)

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:42 pm

Thanks for that info Walter!

:
I was thinking about it as I lay in bed looking out at -18 winds blowing snow over the rooftops here. Those little plates are pretty cheap and already clean..... I thought it would be an alternative?

Heck.... The thing doesnt work now! It cant get any worse from the efforts! :woohoo:

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:21 pm

Ive re-contacted my etalon successfully for the second time. still no test done as I just finished this minute. I did however video the final stages of the process... I cleaned the surfaces with 99% iso, then ensured they were good for imageing through. meaning no finger prints. At that point I began the video to show the contact happen. hope this link works and maybe some of you will find flaws or possibilities in my very non scientific contact!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98998648@N07/11030689944/

together we will get this right!

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:45 pm

Hi Rob

congrats on the recontacting, every body is now waiting for the result on the scope. I wish you sunshing all the day

Post by **marktownley** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:49 pm

That's excellent Rob! I shall most definitely be having a go at this myself over the xmas period...

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:50 pm

Thanks Walter! I wish I could try it out right away to either prove or disprove the effort.... Buts its just too cold! I just finished shoveling the back deck and hot tub..... Thinking that might be a bit nicer in this fridged winter wonderland....

What do you think about there only being 3 spacers? There were only 3 when it fell apart..... Seems all others have 4? Maybe this cant work because its 3 point contact? Thoughts?

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:54 pm

Thanks Mark!
I know my method seems a bit barbaric! Im no scientist by any means! Lol

I was just hoping to show that what seemed to be a horrible situation and near impossible task of putting humpty dumpty together again, really isnt as bad as we thought!

True it may take a few tries! But its not an "all hope lost" situation! And Ken managed to assemble his in a temporary fashion and get detail s and single image! That means its very doable!

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:56 pm

Hi Rob

I have only seen PST Etalon with 3 spacers and Lunt Etalons with 5 and 6 spacers. I guess that is a thing of manufacturing know ledge.

I guess for small diameters 3 spacers are perfect. A chair with 3 legs never waggles

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:58 pm

Fantastic point Walter! Thank you! I have renewed faith in a successful contact!

:

Post by **marktownley** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:04 pm

I guess for small diameters 3 spacers are perfect. A chair with 3 legs never waggles

So true there Walter!

swisswalter · Post by **swisswalter** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:12 pm

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:32 pm

I like your thought on the 3 spacers! Makes perfect sense! But I was lucky enough to pick up an etalon from my friend Brian from Maple ridge observatory. Its an older version than mine and it most definitely has 4! I guess on the newer versions.... They fine tuned the procedure?

Post by **Merlin66** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:52 pm

George's SM40 had six spacers around the edge and one in the middle!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:58 pm

What do you think Ken? Any good ideas on a more successful attempt? Im always looking for pros and cons! If we can unravel this mystery it will be very beneficial to all! A mere bump on the side of either plates will de-contact these things! A simple cleaning could result in disaster for someone! Moving forward I wouldnt disassemble a functioning etalon unless it had to be done!

Post by **Merlin66** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:22 pm

Rob,
Looks like it could work...just need to see the results.
As long as you mark a registration line on the edge to ensure the correct positioning of the spacers and they are 100% clean, then they should make contact.
I think you were applying pressure too soon...the alcohol needs to completely evaporate to get the glass on glass contact...I hit mine with a hairdrier...
Hay, if it works - it works!

RobBower · Post by **RobBower** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:32 pm

Thanks for the info Ken! Good to know!
As far as the registration marks go...... The marks on mine are almost invisible! So the only marks I can place are trial and error marks! If the etalon halves are suppose to be optically flat, and the spacers are suppose to be optically flat...... Then all points should be optically flat!

So as I say. Im doing trial n error by feel! Im open to ideas and suggestions on finding the alignment process! Any and all are welcome! It doesnt work now...... So it cant get any worse! Lol

Post by **Merlin66** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:10 pm

Rob,
Flatness is one issue, the other is getting the spacers equally spaced around the circumference.
Usually (??) there's one or more spacers still held on each plate, the plates then need to be "dry" fitted to see where they should be located and a registration mark made on the edge...