What's wrong???

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What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

The first time that I used a Quark Chromo.
What is here wrong with this image( only stakket inAS2), no postprocessing.
How can I solve this problem?
test.jpg
test.jpg (127.3 KiB) Viewed 2254 times


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

The focal reducer seems to be vignetting bad and goes off band towards the edges.

Is this flat calibrated and are you using gamma? What was your acquisition software and parameters?

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Marty,I use Sharpcap as software with the ASI 174MM mono camera and the Quark Chromo with the light green.
Exp. time 5 ms
Gain 57
Gamma 1
This is a picture from my setup.
Attachments
test1.jpg
test1.jpg (226.79 KiB) Viewed 2245 times
Last edited by MAURITS on Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

Is there a focal reducer in that train or is the gap from the interference eliminator and the 2" eyepiece holder causing this vignetting?

Also have you gone through most of the tuning settings to see which is mostly on-band?

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Forgot to say, I use a 2" focal reducer (0.5x) inside the 2" at the end of the Quark, before the newtonian eliminator.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by marktownley »

Put the reducer closer to the chip. You're just photographing the vignetting,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Mark, the reducer is connected to te eliminator front side.
I can the reducer maybe connecting on the front side of the camera, after the eliminator.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

I would take everything out except the reducer, and tune the Quark initially just to make sure you're getting on band with the highest contrast to your liking for surface. Then re-introduce the eliminator so that it's not causing issues up front.

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Marty, do you mean to keep the extensions, reducer on the camera in the train and eliminate the eliminator ...
The Quark is tuned anti clock wise completly to the left.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

MAURITS wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:22 pm Marty, do you mean to keep the extensions, reducer on the camera in the train and eliminate the eliminator ...
The Quark is tuned anti clock wise completly to the left.
Keep the extension, you'll need those to achieve focus. They're not causing any problems in this setup.

The issue is likely one of these or a combination of these:

1) Vignetting from the focal reducer placement
2) Vignetting from overall placement of the interference eliminator
3) Off-band due to tuning and from the edges of the focal reducer curvature
4) Overall tuning

I would remove the interference eliminator, remove the focal reducer, etc. All of it. Just the bare Quark into the extensions. It will be oversampled but that's ok. The point is to simply tune the Quark. Adjust it from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock, that way you can find out which direction is ideal for your location to tune. Keep tuning on the side with the highest contrast. I would take short clips of video and note their name/file with the tuning and try to get a sequence so you know which is ideal with your Quark at your location. Once you establish the best tuning position, just leave it there forever (or as your basic starting point in the future).

Once that's done, re-introduce the focal reducer first (without the interference eliminator). The closer it is to the sensor, the less vignetting, so ideally you want to put it directly on the camera and insert into the 2" eyepiece holder of the Quark. If you do not see newtoninan rings, you will not need the interference eliminator. If you have really pronounced newtonian rings, you can put the interference eliminator back in the train, but maybe put it before the focal reducer, so you're keeping the focal reducer as close to the camera sensor as you can.

Also make sure Gamma is off or neutral for certain.

Personally I would suggest moving over to FireCapture. I was using SharpCap forever and after using FireCapture, it's simply superior and has more tools that are very helpful in solar.

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks Marty and Mark for the good advice.
I trying all these possibilitys tomorrow when I see the sun ...


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by marktownley »

A big chip camera too?


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by PDB »

Maurits,

have you measured the distance from reducer to focal plane of the camera. Most of these reducers are built for a 5 or 5.5 cm distance from reducer to focal plane. The ASI174 has only 6.5mm distance from chip to camera front. So you might be to close

Personally I would suggest moving over to FireCapture. I was using SharpCap forever and after using FireCapture, it's simply superior and has more tools that are very helpful in solar.
Fully agree with Marty. I know only 2 capture programs for Solar and Planetary that are really doing the job. FireCapture (free) and Genika Astro (licenced, but not really expensive). Genika (only windows) is a bit faster, and has some things usefull in Solar that FC does not have (autofocus with ASCOM focuser, usefull Ephemeries tools ...) and is a bit less cpu intensive than FC. FC (windows, linux & mac) supports more cameras and, depending on if you need them, has some other features not present in Genika (especially like the WinJupos compatible naming convention of files).

There are a few others but not so rich-featured.
Also make sure Gamma is off or neutral for certain.
I know some will not agree but this is correct. Gamma is usually applied in software. It applies the same gamma correction on the image that you can apply later in post-processing. It limits the possibilities for post processing since it store an already altered signal.

The only time it sounds usefull to me if you would like to do on-line streaming of a solar event or create a video that you want to show as is. (And even then depending on the format you can still do corrections.

But as said, not everyone agrees with this.

Regards,

Paul


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MapleRidge »

Maurits...

Like Marty and others have said, I'd take the reducer out and find the correct tuning setting and see how the image looks without extra optics like the reducer in place. Once you have a configured setup then try the reducer. The spacing between the reducer and chip will have 'sweet' spot where the best image will be found...increase or decrease the spacing and optical aberrations become more apparent.

I have both a 1.25" and 2" reducer that thread onto the camera adapter nosepiece and of the two I find my 1.25" works better than the larger one. The larger chips will catch more of the image degradation if the reducer is the source as you move away from the centre of the field. Having it placed ahead of the tilt adjuster might be part of the problem.

Hope you can get it working properly.

Brian


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by Valery »

MAURITS wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:22 pm The first time that I used a Quark Chromo.
What is here wrong with this image( only stakket inAS2), no postprocessing.
How can I solve this problem?

test.jpg
Combo is a wrong idea. Standard Quark has BEST telecentric system I ever have in hands. It near perfect.
All best images with Quark I saw, were done with standard Quark Chromosphere.

And keeping gamma neutral just a plain mistake. If you recording 8bit stream video, then better to stretch histogram as much as possible. Then, on the full brightness range you will have maximum bits. So, a final stacked image will have more shades to deal with.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Valery, I use the "Standard Quark" Chromosphere, but I had written "Chromo" instead of Chromosphere. :roll:

Today I had the ability to experiment.
With the 2" reducer, there is no good recording possible (reflections , not come to focus ….etc.)

Recording right away without reducer …

I will update this post soon.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

These are a few images with the above train but without the (0.5x) 2" reducer.
I know this images are not the best in postprocessing but it's for me a good start :)
Attachments
this is much better than before, but not yet all good.
this is much better than before, but not yet all good.
11_08_37_g3_ap6159.jpg (284.84 KiB) Viewed 2165 times
The color is here not oke.
The color is here not oke.
11_03_50_g3_ap5159.jpg (529.43 KiB) Viewed 2165 times


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

Looks great Maurits, looks like the FR was your issue.

You can try to use it in different locations. Realistically though, remember the Quark has a 12mm blocking filter aperture, so having a 2" focal reducer isn't needed, as 12mm passes through the 1.25" aperture without a problem. Placement is all that matters really to avoid vignetting.

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Marty, I did as you said and indeed the reducer was the issue.

My concerns are now: what if the seeing is really bad and I can't use the 2" reducer, how can I fix it?

Can I do something with a 1.25" reducer in a 1.25" nose piece in the camera instead of a 2" nose piece.

When I use then another 1.25 "nosepiece, do I have other problems?


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by Astrophil »

Maurits, both images look good to me. I like them! Lots of nice detail too. I know these were test shots but I was thinking that a flat frame correction might have evened out the brighter corners. I have had some success flattening limb shots by slightly moving toward the center and defocusing to make a flat and reduce brightness slightly. Glad to see it working so well. Lots of good advice here and I look forward to more images.

Phil


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks Phil for the nice comments ...


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks Valery, Paul and Brian for the good advice ...


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by Valery »

Maurits,

The best image train for you is: telescope -> Quark Chromosphere - NR Eiliminator - GSO 0,5x reducer - IMX174 camera.

GSO 0,5x reducer is cheap and small achromaic lens which must be threaded in the camera nose.

Hope this helps.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

Here's how I use a 2" FR on the ASI174MM. It threads with a step up ring. This inserts into the Quark's eyepiece and there's minimal vignetting.
ASI174MM_2inchFR.jpg
ASI174MM_2inchFR.jpg (6.5 KiB) Viewed 2106 times
Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Valery, Marty I have some pics from my camera, in combination with the Quark.
I have tested many combinations but with the reducer it will not work.

First pic: as used and a lot of vignetting.
one.jpg
one.jpg (137.4 KiB) Viewed 2096 times
Second pic: this combination works, but there is no reducer in the train.
Attachments
two.jpg
two.jpg (138.4 KiB) Viewed 2096 times


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by PDB »

Maurits,

doesn't the 2" nosepiece you are using (left) no internal thread on the scope side?
If yes I would try to place the reducer there and see.

That is the only combination I can make it work (with adapters I have) with a 1.25" GSO

Camera - Nosepiece - Reducer ---> eyerpiece adapter of the Quark.

P.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Third pic: This has a lot of vignetting.
Tree.jpg
Tree.jpg (128.37 KiB) Viewed 1168 times
Four pic: This is my 2" focal reducer with stepdown ring (2" to T2)
four.jpg
four.jpg (149.32 KiB) Viewed 1168 times

When I put the reducer with stepdown ring on the camera (T2 frontside) then I have no connection possible with the eliminator (T2).


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by PDB »

Will make some pictures tomorrow. (Camera in use at the moment ...)

P.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks Paul ...
Last edited by MAURITS on Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

MalVeauX wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:22 pm Here's how I use a 2" FR on the ASI174MM. It threads with a step up ring. This inserts into the Quark's eyepiece and there's minimal vignetting.

ASI174MM_2inchFR.jpg

Very best,
Marty how do you connect your tilt adapter, is it T2 or 2"?


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

I think it's T2? It's the standard ZWO tilt adapter so it threads directly to their cameras. I can put my 2" after the tilt adapter too, it vignettes there like yours.

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks Marty, I believe I need a new stepdown ring from 2" male (on reducer front side) to T2 female (on eliminator back side).
So the imaging train would be: extensions, Quark, eliminator with on the front a 2" noisepiece, after the eliminator the reducer, after the reducer the camera.

The space between the reducer and the eliminator is for the new stepdown ring (2" to T2).

A simulation pic as example.
Five.jpg
Five.jpg (150.56 KiB) Viewed 1163 times


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MalVeauX »

Are the newtonian rings so bad that you need the eliminator?

I actually don't even use my tilt adapter when doing high res. I don't have rings, and even when I sometimes do, a flat calibration frame removes them.

I use my tilt adapter mainly for full discs where I cannot do calibration frames.

Very best,


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Marty when the weather stay good I will try again without the eliminator and see what it is.
Indeed, with flat frame calibration I can try to remove them, I look forwards.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by PDB »

Hello Maurits,

going through my older notes, realized I never got it working with the reducer in front of the NR eliminator. (Luckaly if I put the reducer in front of the ASI178 there are no NR's) But got some inspiration from this post to try a few other combinations. (But busy with other things like making a new motor focus controller, writing the software for it ...)

Regards,

Paul


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks Paul for the note.


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Re: What's wrong???

Post by MAURITS »

Incredible but everything right away works fine for HR imaging the sun.
I have removed the eliminator.

So my imaging train is now: extensions, Quark with 2" eyepiece holder, 2" reducer in the Quark's eyepiece holder and the camera there behind.
I don't see newton rings … :D

Along this way, I would like to thank everyone who has helped me. :bow
Final.jpg
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