Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

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colmic

Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by colmic »

Hi,

i'm new here. Rapid presentation :
I'm 48 old, i come from Paris, France, and i'm amateur astronomer since 35 years !
My solar setup is :
- Takahashi Refractor TOA 130mm on EM200 mount, with ERF135, PST etalon and B1800 Lunt
- TMB Refractor 105mm with Solarmax 90 and BF10 on Vixen Porta
- DMK31 camera

I'm actually testing the new Lumenera LT425 camera with the big CMOSIS 4000 sensor. This camera is capable of 90fps in 2048x2048 in 8bits, or 38fps in 12 bits. 75fps in 2048x1024 @12 bits, and 150fps in 1024x512 @12 bits !!!
Here is an example of mosaic with the TOA130 + SM90 in full mode: http://www.astrosurf.com/colmic/CMOSIS_ ... U_full.jpg
And a photo in 2048x1024 in 75fps: http://www.astrosurf.com/colmic/Cmosis_ ... 0840TU.jpg

But this camera is a little noisy, with many vertical lines due to CMos sensor. An Offset don't correct them easily.

If there is some users of Point Grey cameras with ICX674 or ICX687, could you tell me if 26fps is in 8 or 16 bits ? And could you tell me if ROI permits a faster framerate ?

Note : the new Grasshopper3 with ICX674 is available since today !

PS : please excuse my bad english


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Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by Montana »

Hello Michel, a very warm and sunny welcome to you :)

What fabulous pictures, I love the full disc :bow: do you have a black & white version too?

Regards
Alexandra


colmic

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by colmic »

Thank you Alexandra, and thanks for your welcome :)

I don't have B/W version of this one, but here is an image at prime focus of the TOA130 with the SM90 from wednesday : http://www.astrosurf.com/colmic/Cmosis_ ... 0TU_80.jpg

And the video here (2 hours of the sun's life, 1 minute step) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOp_U_-62SE (Make sure to be in 1080p mode and full screen to visualize it)

If you want to see another pictures or animated gifs => http://www.astrosurf.com/colmic


This Lumenera camera is very versatile :
- it can imaging the full disk sun at 1000mm focal
- it can imaging at telescope's optimal resolution with mosaics of only 4 shots
- it can imaging very hi-resolution pictures of the sun in ROI mode and more than 75 or 150fps in 12 bits
- the sensor is extremely sensitive, and the model i'm testing is the NIR version (near infrared sensitive).

But :
- very expensive (more than $3000, 2800 euros here in France)
- a little noisy because of CMos sensor, with many vertical lines visible

Take a look at these videos of slow motions i made with it :
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3HOj1aLJJw at 355fps
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REVgupEP3-o at 1363 fps :ohmy:


Pedro

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by Pedro »

Welcome to SolarChar Michel

All CMOS cameras have a rolling shutter and it's very difficult to get rid of the noise. I've used a QHY5 for a while then changed to DMK cameras (Imaging Source). I currently use a DMK51 and DMK41 for most of my solar imaging. You have a great imaging setup.

Best regards
Amicalement


donatpointgrey

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Hi Michel,

G3 ICX674 / ICX687 frame rates are sensor limited, not bandwidth limited (16-bits is obviously 2x the bandwidth) so they can both do full frame rate in 16-bit mode. Since they are CCD sensors, they do not speed up with ROI as impressively as CMOS. CMOS sensors typically speed up based on the ratio of the area of the ROI compared with full frame. CCDs speed up only in the number of rows. I.e. a low-width, full-height ROI will run at the same speed as the full image. A low-height, full width ROI will be faster. It is not completely linear speed up unfortunately. A ICX674 will run about 2x faster when using a 1/3 height image output.

Note that the image performance specs are available here:
http://grasshopper3.ptgrey.com/USB3/Grasshopper3
Specific link:
http://www.ptgrey.com/support/downloads ... rmance.pdf

This is something relatively new - we finally have enough confidence in our EMVA 1288 sensor characterization numbers to make them available - yay!

Your friendly neighbourhood Point Grey lurker ;)
Don


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Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Michel

thank you very much for the informations.

Welcome to that wonderful TOS free site have sunshine, have fun


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

from 7 am - 7 pm http://www.nanosys.ch

from 7.01 pm - 6.59 am http://www.wastronomiko.com some times vice versa ;)
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Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by Derek Klepp »

Welcome Michel and thanks for the reveiw it is always interesting to see what others are doing.Look foward to more pisc from your setups.


colmic

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by colmic »

Thank you Derek, Walter, Pedro and Don :)

Pedro, many years ago we had some discuss about the webcams. I was the founder of Astrocam website :) We was pionneers in webcam imaging ! Your setup is wonderfull too :) So the CMOSIS CMV4000 is global shutter, not rolling.

Don, thank you for your response, so you confirm the Grasshopper3 can both work at 26fps in 16 bits mode ?

In fact i cannot make my choice between this Lumenera and the two Grasshopper3. I saw yet the performance specs and ICX674 is 14700e- in saturation depth when 687 is only 9400. Perhaps this will make a difference in solar imaging ? The 687 is very interesting because of its price, but 674 could interest me too. The Cmosis Lumenera is a little too noisy and too expensive for me.


colmic

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by colmic »

Here is my visual setup (TOA130 + SM90 + Bino Baader-Zeiss Mark V)



donatpointgrey

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Hi Michel,



Don, thank you for your response, so you confirm the Grasshopper3 can both work at 26fps in 16 bits mode ?

In fact i cannot make my choice between this Lumenera and the two Grasshopper3. I saw yet the performance specs and ICX674 is 14700e- in saturation depth when 687 is only 9400. Perhaps this will make a difference in solar imaging ? The 687 is very interesting because of its price, but 674 could interest me too. The Cmosis Lumenera is a little too noisy and too expensive for me.

Yes, the GS3 ICX674 and ICX687 do run at 26 fps in 16 bits mode. Yes, the ICX687 full well is smaller because the pixel is physically smaller. Actually the ratio of pixel area is 2:3 - almost the same as the ratio of well capacity.

Don


Pedro

Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by Pedro »

You're right Michel. Rolling shutter and global (frame) shutters are different. We learn something every day. I didn't know that CMOSIS could have a global shutter

best regards
amicalement

PS- I remember well the Astrocam website all those years ago


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Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by marktownley »

Welcome to the forum! Great setup and look forward to seeing more of your images :)


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Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
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Re: Presentation and question about Point Grey Grasshopper3 cameras

Post by gabrieli »

is it my oversight or did PGR just list a CMOSIS based Grasshopper3 today which duplicates the Lumenera Lt425 specs?

Michel:

Thank you you very much for your impressions of the Lumenera Lt425.

I agree that a square format and frame rate are very appealing but, as you state, the combination of observable noise and Newton's rings at the price you indicate is not a good selling point for my taste.

By the way, I haven't heard back from Lumenera yet about the price in Canada where I live but, at this point,
it may not sway me anyway.


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