Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

That’s correct. I’m sure you’ll find one at the right distance.

Stu.


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Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:00 pm Hi Rainer,

That’s correct. I’m sure you’ll find one at the right distance.

Stu.
OK. So I need to search for signals. Tune USB with 2 kHz below the signal and see if I hear noise or not ... ¿ correct ?

That would mean I have a transmitter below the Horizon and I am not receving directly the signal ...

:shock:


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

Searching the internet should reveal suitable transmitters/frequencies to try (600-1000km from you). Correct, tune to 2kHz below the listed frequency, ensure your bandwidth is 4000Hz and that the receiver is set to USB (upper side band). You shouldn’t see anything from the station on the spectrum or hear anything unless there’s a meteor reflection.

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:54 am Hi Rainer,

Searching the internet should reveal suitable transmitters/frequencies to try (600-1000km from you). Correct, tune to 2kHz below the listed frequency, ensure your bandwidth is 4000Hz and that the receiver is set to USB (upper side band). You shouldn’t see anything from the station on the spectrum or hear anything unless there’s a meteor reflection.

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Thanks. I have been ding that but it looks like frequency revealing in Mexico is State Secret :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yesterday I was in the Observatory for about 6 hours trying to find some frequencies. I found one on 54.3 MHz and according to a list for Mexico transmitters it is a VHF TV transmitter but now I need to know where it is located :o :o :o

Will start today again and see if I find more.


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

Well. Sitting in the Radio Lab and playing around.

I have found a list of the TV channels and their frequencies.

Frecuencia_Canales_TV_Mexico.jpg
Frecuencia_Canales_TV_Mexico.jpg (649.2 KiB) Viewed 2981 times

Looking at the list I searched for various frequencies and got one which is well isolated from others

SDR_67.250MHz_lonely.JPG
SDR_67.250MHz_lonely.JPG (201.75 KiB) Viewed 2981 times

If I go higher in the TV channels then I get a cluster of peaks

SDR_175MHz_cluster.JPG
SDR_175MHz_cluster.JPG (217.47 KiB) Viewed 2981 times

Now below you can see the 67.250 MHZ in WFM mode where it makes not much noise

SDR_67.250MHz_in_WFM_mode.JPG
SDR_67.250MHz_in_WFM_mode.JPG (193.79 KiB) Viewed 2981 times

but when I go into USB mode and tune 2000 Hz lower then I get a high pitch noise. Is that OK or not OK ?

SDR_67.250MHz_in_USB_mode.JPG
SDR_67.250MHz_in_USB_mode.JPG (196.08 KiB) Viewed 2981 times
Searching for antenna DIY I found the Small Magentic Loop antenna which is easy to built but so far I ahve understood difficult to tune.

Should I make a 3 element Yagi Antenna then this get quite big for 67 MHz

Decision decisions decisions ...


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

I tuned in into a higher MHZ band around 179.25 MHz and in USB mode - 2KHz i hear from time to time a blip.

Look at the image

Could_This_Be_a_Meteor.JPG
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regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

I have been observing it now for a while and as said it BLIPS unregularly. Now build a Yagi for that frequency and see what happens. According to my research the transmitter is about 1000 km away in the Southeast of Mexico.

I tuned my Dipole to that frequency

Possible_Meteor_01.jpg
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regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

I guess this was something big crossing ...

Satelite_or-Plane_Crossing.jpg
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regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

Looks promising. Place the cursor in line with the irregular blips (you can do this on the waterfall screen) to find the exact frequency of the transmitter, then de-tune by 2kHz. You can then reduce the bandwidth from 4000Hz so as to isolate this signal from any adjoining signals.

Use Spectrum Lab to log the blips and see if their number and regularity make any sense in relation to current meteor rates.

It’s coming along.... :)

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:46 am Hi Rainer,

Looks promising. Place the cursor in line with the irregular blips (you can do this on the waterfall screen) to find the exact frequency of the transmitter, then de-tune by 2kHz. You can then reduce the bandwidth from 4000Hz so as to isolate this signal from any adjoining signals.

Use Spectrum Lab to log the blips and see if their number and regularity make any sense in relation to current meteor rates.

It’s coming along.... :)

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Will do. It is raining and so I have a lot of time.

I was sampling at 1.024 msps. I was able to use the highest but then the noise is overwhelming.

Yesterday I was trying to see something in Spectrum Lab but no luck at all. Would you mind sending me your *.usr file and I just change the frequency for testing ? That Spectrum Lab program is quite finicky :shock:

One thing that I noticed is that the Dongle is very susceptible to good or bad connection at the USB connector. I am using a 5 meter active USB 2.0 cable, Will see if I find an active USB 3.0 cable somewhere in my home cable shop.

I found a program called Echoes but it does not read my Dongle and according to the author it is due to the installed driver. Will see if I can set up my dongle for Echoes.

Thanks for the Heads Up ...


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by marktownley »

Interesting thread guys!


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

I do not know what I am doing wrong but Spectrum Lab just does not depict any of those BLIPs I hear. I have installed Virtual Cable as my audio source. Maybe I am connecting wrong in Spectrum Lab ?

Below an image of the BLIPs I get. The transmitter is around 179.263.500 Hz with some variations in the las 3 digit Hz. I tuned it then down in USB to 179.261.500. Measuring the frequency in the Waterfall I get exatly 179.263.500 (variations same as above) and the BLIPs are exactly every time in 179.262.400 Hz (again with some varitions).

As of now writing this I am again on 179.261.500 and the sporadic BLIPs at 179.262.400.

BLIP_179.2625MHz.jpg
BLIP_179.2625MHz.jpg (731.96 KiB) Viewed 2955 times

Look below my two screenshots. What is wrong in the upper left corner of the adjustments. Between 179.263.500 Hz and my BLIPs at 179.262.400 Hz ?

SectrumLab_179.261MHz.jpg
SectrumLab_179.261MHz.jpg (163.5 KiB) Viewed 2955 times
SectrumLab_Input_179.261MHz.jpg
SectrumLab_Input_179.261MHz.jpg (418.35 KiB) Viewed 2955 times


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

I do not know what I am doing wrong but Spectrum Lab just does not depict any of those BLIPs I hear. I have installed Virtual Cable as my audio source. Maybe I am connecting wrong in Spectrum Lab ?
Hi,

After a few hours I think I managed to setup the audio input and it turned out it was a Windows problem ...

Nowhere in the WWW I was able to read about that problem ...

If it works what I did then now I have to wait for BLIPs


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

A few things:
1. Ensure you're set on USB (upper Side Band). You currently have it on WFM
2. The bandwidth is now too narrow. It should be wide enough to encompass the signal you're trying to record, but not too wide so as to detect the strong signal to the right on the 'blips'.
3. The Audio Input on Spectrum Lab should be set to CABLE as this will take the output from the SDR module directly as an input. Ensure that the output on the SDR is also set to CABLE. You have to stop (white square) the SDR and then select the Audio tab and change the output option to CABLE then press play (the white triangle where the white square was, just to the left of the cog on the top row).

Did you manage to download the Spectrum Lab configuration file from the Popular Astronomy Radio Meteor Observing Guide?

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:10 pm Hi Rainer,

A few things:
1. Ensure you're set on USB (upper Side Band). You currently have it on WFM
2. The bandwidth is now too narrow. It should be wide enough to encompass the signal you're trying to record, but not too wide so as to detect the strong signal to the right on the 'blips'.
3. The Audio Input on Spectrum Lab should be set to CABLE as this will take the output from the SDR module directly as an input. Ensure that the output on the SDR is also set to CABLE. You have to stop (white square) the SDR and then select the Audio tab and change the output option to CABLE then press play (the white triangle where the white square was, just to the left of the cog on the top row).

Did you manage to download the Spectrum Lab configuration file from the Popular Astronomy Radio Meteor Observing Guide?

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Thank You. Yes I have done that but looks like Windows is a mess and I will need to go back and see where I have the Bottle neck in regard to seding the audio from SDR to SepctrumLab. Yes I downloaded a file containing something ...MJMM ... or whatever. As I wrote before, Spectrum Lab is quite finicky in regard to data input in frequency and fc and sp ...

The frequency I found at 179.261.500 Hz seems to be a good signal. Will keep looking at that one.

In USA there are the so called SNOTEL/SCAN signals in the band of 40.670 MHz but I do not get them here unless I build a huge antena for that band which would mean a 3 element Yagi antenna with the dimensions of 3.5 meter wide and 2 meters long :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: One of this transmitters is in Brownsville, Texas 1200 km away from my site. Will keep searching for that signal. A dipole with 3.5 meters total length could also catch this signal :lol:

The band used by the the other guy in Hermosillo, Sonora with 54.300 MHz is also unreachable for me.

I never believed how much time it takes to get this working and my hair is getting more grey everyday and I thought this is a hobby :lol: .

What this RMO needs, is something like the ASCOM standard in astronomy :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: to interface the different software packages.

This is more work as being a CEO of a company :roll:


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

OK, here I am again and when I open the Audio menu what do I use

[MME] CABLE Input ... or [Windows Sound] CABLE Input

Look at the screen shots. I think the best way top illustrate something is via screenshots because we then talk the same language ;)

Will keep trying.

SDRSharp-Audio-chose.JPG
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SDRSharp-Audio-chose-many.jpg
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regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,
1. Ensure you're set on USB (upper Side Band). You currently have it on WFM
2. The bandwidth is now too narrow. It should be wide enough to encompass the signal you're trying to record, but not too wide so as to detect the strong signal to the right on the 'blips'.
This was only for showing the BLIP but when I run it I always set it to USB and pull the bandwidth to the right so the chosen frequency of 179.261.500 is inside the lighter window.

:bow2

In order to measure which is the BLIP freqeuency in the Waterfall I need to narrow the bandwidth as having it wider I can no measure the frequency of the BLIP becuase it show me inside the bandwidth the tuned in frequency.

;)


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,
1. Ensure you're set on USB (upper Side Band). You currently have it on WFM
2. The bandwidth is now too narrow. It should be wide enough to encompass the signal you're trying to record, but not too wide so as to detect the strong signal to the right on the 'blips'.
This was only for showing the BLIP but when I run it I always set it to USB and pull the bandwidth to the right so the chosen frequency of 179.261.500 is inside the lighter window.

:bow2

In order to measure which is the BLIP freqeuency in the Waterfall I need to narrow the bandwidth as having it wider I can no measure the frequency of the BLIP becuase it show me inside the bandwidth the tuned in frequency.

;)

This is how I run it always for detecting BLIPs and there is one :mrgreen:

USB-tuning.JPG
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regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

It looks like your target frequency for the blips is 179.2625 MHz. The set frequency on the top line should, therefore, be 179.2605 MHz, which is the target frequency less 2 KHz (to give the 2 KHz ping, i.e. the difference in frequencies). When you do this, set the bandwidth back to 4000 Hz on USB. This sets the window of detection. If you find that the width is too wide (capturing any other broadcasts such as the bright line on the right) then narrow it down a bit until you exclude the bright line. This should then allow you to detect the blips within this frequency window defined by the bandwidth. Spectrum lab with the correct configuration file loaded will enable the blips to be counted, tagged and logged as meteor events. You can then check that the counts seem sensible compared with expectations (maybe 10 per hour as a background count between defined meteor showers).

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

Thanks. It looks like this now but after playing around a bit if I change the frequency the blips aslo chane its value. Is that correct ? e.g with 179.260.500 MHZ the BLIPs value is 179.262.400 (delta 1900 Hz).

Sometimes the BLIP vary by 100 Hz, and is that normal ?

But i do not see the BLIPs in Spectrum Lab ... and VB Cable is working according to the control panel of VB cable

:?

SetUp_179.2605MHz.jpg
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regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

Just to double check things...

Here's a screen shot of my SDR screen with the output setting.
SDR Screen.jpg
SDR Screen.jpg (251.52 KiB) Viewed 2909 times
...and the Spectrum Lab screen with the input setting. This can be found on the Audio I/O tab and 'Input'. It is a bit confusing because the drop down says CABLE Output
Spectrum Lab Screen.jpg
Spectrum Lab Screen.jpg (203.6 KiB) Viewed 2909 times
You can check that both are communicating by tuning around, up and down the frequency scale, and at some locations you'll see 'events' popping up on the Spectrum Lab screen when it thinks a meteor has been detected. Some of the weaker stations can show as continuous bands on Spectrum Lab.
Meteor Radio SDR_Spectrum Lab.jpg
Meteor Radio SDR_Spectrum Lab.jpg (609.82 KiB) Viewed 2909 times
I think you'll have to keep fishing around (maybe with zoom set to minimum) to look for further 'blips' and see if you can find something that looks more promising and then zoom in on this, following the routine of isolating the frequency (less 2 KHz) and setting the bandwidth at 4 kHz or a little less to avoid any adjacent strong stations. So long as the SDR and Spectrum Lab applications are communicating and that you have successfully uploaded the configuration file for Spectrum Lab then you should see the blips recorded as meteor strikes.

Hope this helps.

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

You in Europe have it easy with the GRAVES Radar in France. As I see you just tune in the frequency of 143.048.000 Hz and off you go. :mrgreen:

Thank you very much for the screenshot sas how to adjust the VB Cable In and Output as well as the other tips. I see I was setting this adjustments wrong. As soon as I am ready I will start playing today again.

Now with that tips it is a bit clearer for me.

OK, will test today by just tuning in into some known frequencies and see what happens.

I was playing around yesterday with the software " Echoes " and got some BLIPs in that software signalizing some reflection but honestly the User Interface is everything but not intuitive at all. Even SDR# is more intuitive.

Again thanks. :bow2


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

OK, after your last explanation now Spectrum Lab receives data from SDR#. When I press the Signal Gen = ON I hear a beep and so I hear an artificial Meteor BLIP.

Now comes the difficult part and that is finding a transmitter behind the Hill.

:bow2


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

I tried to do what you showed me in this image but no luck at all. O mean showing the long streaks in Spectrum Lab


download/file.php?id=46861


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

You need to put the curser on one of the signals that is jumping up and down a bit to show this, but don’t worry about that. The main thing is to show that SDR and Spectrum Lab are communicating, which you say is the case. Just focus on finding blips :)

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:57 pm Hi Rainer,

You need to put the curser on one of the signals that is jumping up and down a bit to show this, but don’t worry about that. The main thing is to show that SDR and Spectrum Lab are communicating, which you say is the case. Just focus on finding blips :)

Stu.
Well I am assuming it is working but in order to be sure I would like to see the full ones as you were able to depict and I am not.

Do I need to tune in onto that frequency ?
Last edited by rsfoto on Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

Very interesting post and comments Stuart - thanks vm.

I already have a radio-receiving station here covering from below 100Khz to just above 3Ghz in all modes of transmissions,
so even though I have been aware of the meteor-detection by radio, have not had the time to monitor and record - as yet.

All sorts of aerials and masts are available here from Yagi to verticals and long-wire dipole-G5RV's etc., so at no costs here I
could certainly monitor these types of reflected-transmissions and perhaps that could well occur after sorting the final parts of improving the Solar-imaging.

Along with my new Oculus camera (which captured the attached image), it would certainly make an interesting project during the meteor showers. (I can easily lower the horizontal aerial-wire if needed)...

Fortunately the other aerials and their masts are some distance away from my observatory (in my long-garden), so not a problem as far as imaging the heavenly-bodies are concerned...

Best Wishes
Terry
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Terry,

Interesting that you are already fully equipped. Let us know how you go along with this.

May I ask where are you located ? There is no info in your profile :?

Thanks


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Excellent, Terry. Combining radio detection and full-sky photography sounds like a great project.

Stu.


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

rsfoto wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:05 am
Carbon60 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:57 pm Hi Rainer,

You need to put the curser on one of the signals that is jumping up and down a bit to show this, but don’t worry about that. The main thing is to show that SDR and Spectrum Lab are communicating, which you say is the case. Just focus on finding blips :)

Stu.
Well I am assiming it is working but in order to be sure I would like to see the full oines as you were able to depict and I am not.

Do I need to tune in onto that frequency ?
Hi Rainer,

To get this effect, you'll need to find a station that barely shows, but 'pops up and down' on the monitor. This will 'stimulate' Spectrum Lab to produce the horizontal lines. As I say, this is not really important so long as SDR and Spectrum Lab are communicating.

Stu.


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Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

Thanks Rainer and Stuart.

Rainer: To be honest I haven't yet had time to update my profile as yet, but will-do soon as well as adding photos of the observatory etc.
I am in S.E.England in the county of Essex (as an "Essex Boy")... My first trade in the Royal Air Force was communications including land-line
and radio, so have always had much to do with the subject and have an extensive-range of radio-gear and everything that goes with them..
My garden is an "aerial-farm" too...

Stuart: Indeed the two items will go together and may well produce some captures and their sounds-of in due course. The Oculus camera also allows
for unattended recording of the sky, so actually less work to do over the hours and saves the roof being opened on very cold-nights, where
I can now sit in comfort in the then heated-observatory, c/w with a mini-kitchen (well actually a kettle and hot or cold drinks), mini TV,
CLASSIC-FM radio, Air Traffic Control-radio, Aircraft-radar system along with the obvious telescopes and associated-gear. So what more
would one want to pass the hours away with ??? If you are about to say a "bed" for the occasional kip, then that is also available too...

Although the only communications radio is an ICOM for ATC (always in the observatory), pipe-lined underground is a four-channel feed from
my radio-shack area, which would well-serve through the existing four speakers already installed in the observatory to patch into the HF and
other radio-gear. This has already been used for relaying multi-frequency simultaneous ATC-comms (Radar, Approach Control, Tower etc.) so
to change to any other frequency/radio would be quite a simple task.

Today has just been for completing the total-rewiring to completion of the new computerised-telescope control and testing of all four-cameras on the Skywatcher EQ6-GT mount and scopes, to eliminate the need for plug-changes in the future.

Next job is to get the scopes set-up for better images - when the weather allows and hopefully soon...

Just a matter of time and lots of patience...

CLEAR SKIES
Regards
Terry


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

I think my communication is still not OK.

Look at the screenshot. That big red signal at 90 099 100 (tuned at 90 098 000 and this is 1100 hz to the right) is 1000 Hz wide but id did not show up in the3 SpectrumLab waterfall ... and the length was maybe 1-2 seconds only ...

incognita.JPG
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

Further thoughts on this.... are you positive that you’ve installed the correct configuration file in Spectrum Lab? There’s one that comes with the app as standard. Don’t use this one, even though it is listed as ‘Meteor’. You need to use the one referenced in the original Popular Astronomy article as this sets everything required for proper interpretation of the signals coming from the SDR app.

Stu.


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Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:23 am Hi Rainer,

Further thoughts on this.... are you positive that you’ve installed the correct configuration file in Spectrum Lab? There’s one that comes with the app as standard. Don’t use this one, even though it is listed as ‘Meteor’. You need to use the one referenced in the original Popular Astronomy article as this sets everything required for proper interpretation of the signals coming from the SDR app.

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Sorry to be late answering but O have been trying to find transmitters suitable for RMO.

I do not know. Do you mean the MetScat:MJMM.USR file ? I loaded that one and then saved it unader an own name before making any changes.

Yes there is one named MeteorLoggerTest.usr. Just saw it but after reading popastro y saved the ...MJMM.USR file and as written before I saved it under an own name and then made changes in frequency, fc and sp.

Yesterday I got a simple 4 element Yagi antenna for Euro € 10.00 capable according ot the manufacturer to receive VHF/UHF and Radio FM. Now I am waiting for some adapater from F connector to SMA connector as well as getting some pliers for punching Coaxial cables and connectors.

What I thought is a 1 buck investment is now already a 4 buck investment :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Also already dismantled an old Satellite TV dish from the roof and installed it on the wall of my observatory near the window so I can turn it 360°. Also yersterday I finished making the mast for the antenna with 1.25" PVC tubing 3 meters long but it is a bit flexible and so I wikk cut it down to 1.6 meters in order it just point over the roof of my Observatory.

All this for initial test.

Main problem is to find a suitable tranmitter more then 400 km away and not more then maybe a 1000 km away.

A HAM guy from USA living in Scottsdale, Arizon is geiving me a lot of help in regard to the ttransmitters.

As soon as I have the Antenna on line I will perhaps see a clearer picture in reragd to transmitters as the Yagi antenna are directional ¿ right ?

I wish we would have a GRAVES radar somewhere but then life would be too easy :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Played around and I was able to see some planes with ADS tuning and Dump1090. Interesting :o

Have a nice weekend.


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

It sounds like you've been busy! Hopefully you'll find a suitable transmitter somewhere, soon.

I am curious, though. You reference the correct configuration file MetScat:MJMM.USR, but your Spectrum Lab screen isn't set up in the same configuration as mine. On mine the frequency scale runs up and down the right hand side of the screen and the time-lines march on from right to left across the screen, whereas your frequency scale runs across the top and time downwards. Did you set it this way on purpose? To check this further, I set my Spectrum Lab App back to 'factory settings' as you would have received it and then I installed the MetScat:MJMM.USR configuration file and everything transformed to the configuration I've described above for my setup, so if you've followed these steps, then your screen should look like mine.

Just for clarity, this is the sequence you need to follow to configure Spectrum Lab:

This is the configuration after factory re-set (you don't need to do this, I'm just showing this as an example). You'll see this is very different from the final required configuration for this project.
Factory reset_Spectrum Lab.jpg
Factory reset_Spectrum Lab.jpg (259.33 KiB) Viewed 2812 times
To reconfigure using the MetScat:MJMM.USR file, select 'File' from the toolbar and 'Load Settings From'
Uploading _Spectrum Lab.jpg
Uploading _Spectrum Lab.jpg (170.71 KiB) Viewed 2812 times
Then select the MetScat:MJMM.USR from wherever you saved it and click 'Open'
Configuration File Selection _Spectrum Lab.jpg
Configuration File Selection _Spectrum Lab.jpg (200.09 KiB) Viewed 2812 times
Spectrum lab will then totally reconfigure the screen (and all the 'internal' settings), so that it is ready to analyse the signals from the SDR app.
This is how it should look:
Reconfigured _Spectrum Lab.jpg
Reconfigured _Spectrum Lab.jpg (231.43 KiB) Viewed 2812 times
Just be sure to check that it has the correct 'Input' set under 'Audio I/O', which should be 'CABLE Output (VB-Audio Virtual...), which is a bit confusing as it has the word 'output' when it it describing the input. Anyhow, if you follow these steps then the screen and everything else should be set up accordingly.

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

That is exactly what I did. Just changed the orientation of the waterfall opening " Options > Spectrum display settings and unchecked " Vertical Frequency Axis " and the Waterfall moves horizontal instead of vertical. I do not think that that could cause problems.

Input my frequency of 108 308 640 Hz and did not change fc nor sp.

After this I saved the setting under a new file name ABC-XYZ.usr ...

Then I opened under Options " Screen capture options " and in " Screen Capture " I changed " Tackley Meteor Detection Station " to my own name ...

That was it ...

Yesterday I recorded the following eco, but Spectrum Lab did not reacts as maybe it was already there because it entered the waterfall and was not produced inside the waterfall of SDR#.

https://rainerehlert.com/000_RTLSDR/202 ... SA-RMO.mp4

I am still searching for the correct frequency and a usable beacon.

Here an image of my future antenna. That antenna cost me Euro € 10.00 and is a 4 element Yagi according to the producer get VHF/UHF from 40 MHz to 860 MHz radio FM frequency. Still have to put the Impedance Matching Transformer which I already have and I am waiting for the delivery of some adapters from F connector to female SMA connector and just as of now I read they are on the way to be delivered to me. I now have to wait that is stops raining and finish the mounting then I can play with the Yagi. :seesaw

That is a 1.25" PVC pipe and the green cable wound around is the grounding to the base and from there I will go into the soil of my garden. When everything works then I will go with a metal post on the roof of my house and the cabling goes into my Observatory. In the antenna image you can part of the house on the left.

I found a list made in USA about the mexican TV stations. Yes the lists made in Mexico are from last century :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is keeping me busy :shock:


https://rainerehlert.com/000_RTLSDR/202 ... SA-RMO.mp4
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

:lol: Apologies Rainer, I was just double checking that everything was set up correctly.

Okay, so it's 'just' a case of finding the correct frequency and orientation now. As you surmise, Yagi antennae are somewhat directional, so you'll have to rotate this and tune the SDR to find the optimal setup for meteor detection.

Maybe also consider turning your Yagi towards San Antonio/Austin. There might be more up-to-date information about local radio/TV or radar in these regions. Good luck.

Stu.


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

No need to apologize. Just wanted to corroborate that everything is set up OK. Maybe I sounded a bit harsh ? Then apologies from my side :D

So, the antenna is connected via coaxial cable to my RTL-SDR.COM dongle and working :seesaw Rotate the antenna is easy. I have been doping it yesterday.

The guy in USA told me the Austin Texas transmitters are too strong and something else, I do not remember but maybe too crowded ...

I am trying on the SNOTEL/SCAN transmitters from USA but so far do not know where they are. I asked the guy in USA for help. Yesterday I got a weak barely visible peak signal at 40 670 000 Hz. That is according to the spec of the antenna producer 5 MHz under the alleged lowest possible reception frequency.

If 40.67 MHz is viable then I nearly do not need to incline my Antenna. Should the transmitter be 1.400 km away then I need an angle of about ~ 8° only. Made the calculations using this, rememebring old Technical School days :lol:

Aristo_868_01.jpg
Aristo_868_01.jpg (513.26 KiB) Viewed 2787 times
Aristo_868_02.jpg
Aristo_868_02.jpg (478.73 KiB) Viewed 2787 times

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Should that be a possible frequency then I would need to build a huge antenna. Best would be a MOXON antenna which has the smallest footprint compared to a Yagi antenna.

Interesting here in Mexico that there are nearly no transmitters in the frequency from 54 MHz to 210 MHZ. They all start at 470 MHz and up.

Need to do some tests in Radio FM frequencies from 88 MHZ to 108 MHz. Have already read a lot of literature but quiet old one. Nowadays with all the info in the cloud it is harder and harder to find newer literature about all that and if yes there are only fragments.

I will keep working on that.

BTW, did you already finish your antenna ?

:bow


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

Just got the info for the nearest SNOTEL/SCAN transmitters and that is about 2.300 km away :o and another one is about 2.800 km away.

Also got the heading of both. Now I can chase the signal and the distances are good and need nearly no inclination.

Today or tomorrow I get the LNA for the Antenna.

:seesaw


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

The 4 element Yagi antenna is now connected to the dongle and the operator is scanning the SNOTEL 40.67 MHz frequency. Antenna should be pointing at 4° but I guess that does not matter in this case. Question here is teh strength of the reflected signal from the meteors.

One more thing I am not sure about is the setting here.

What does fc and sp mean measured from what basis ¿ 40 670 000 MHz ? to the right ¿? or do I need to tune on the dimm signal of 40 672 900 Hz as I have read about forward scatter and forward scatter is more then the tuned frequency ¿? Questions over questions ...

Not_Clear.JPG
Not_Clear.JPG (16.75 KiB) Viewed 2780 times

I am now in USB 2000 hz tuned on 40 670 000 Hz

Not_Clear_01.JPG
Not_Clear_01.JPG (116.64 KiB) Viewed 2780 times

Here some images of my antenna set up for testing. As said before if I find a meteor I will install it with a metal mast on the roof of my house. This implies then a 15 to 20 meter long coaxial cable.

Antenna13.jpg
Antenna13.jpg (87.22 KiB) Viewed 2780 times
Antenna14.jpg
Antenna14.jpg (59.47 KiB) Viewed 2780 times
Antenna15.jpg
Antenna15.jpg (43.05 KiB) Viewed 2780 times
Antenna16.jpg
Antenna16.jpg (41.02 KiB) Viewed 2780 times
:bow2


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

Looking good.

To your questions:

fc is the central frequency on the Spectrum Lab frequency scale and sp is the span above and below the central frequency. In this case 2kHz is the central frequency and the span is 2kHz below to 2kHz above. vfo is the radio frequency.

If the frequency is the carrier wave frequency then continue to tune 2kHz below this frequency using upper side band. If you end up tuning to an fm station (over the hill, still) then tune to the station’s actual frequency and select FM on the SDR radio options.

Stu.


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Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pm Hi Rainer,

Looking good.

To your questions:

fc is the central frequency on the Spectrum Lab frequency scale and sp is the span above and below the central frequency. In this case 2kHz is the central frequency and the span is 2kHz below to 2kHz above. vfo is the radio frequency.

If the frequency is the carrier wave frequency then continue to tune 2kHz below this frequency using upper side band. If you end up tuning to an fm station (over the hill, still) then tune to the station’s actual frequency and select FM on the SDR radio options.

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Thanks. Will keep messing around. So far I have seen nothing :mrgreen:


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

:Hi Stu,

With the help of Bob Alongi from Scottsdale, Arizona, USA I am slowly understanding all this a bit better after doing some tests on nearby TV stations and focusing on the ATSC pilot carrier frequency which is the lowest MHZ vale of each channel + 310 kHz.

What is still a bit unclear is the setting of Spectrum Lab.

When I set the ATSC frequency with CW I do not hear anything. Now setting the frequency 1 kHz lower with USB I hear a 1 kHz continuous tone. When I take off another 1 kHz then I am at + 308 kHz and I do not hear anything anymore so I guess this is how the Ping from a meteor is heard due to ¿ forawrd scatter ?

So Spectrum Lab need the frequency +308 kHz but here is my question about fc ... fc is equal to frequency center, correct ? So if I put there 2 kHz then the frequency center adds up to + 308 kHz + 2 kHz then I have + 310, is my thinking so far OK ?

Then comes the sp value and the original ...MJMM.USR file sets it to 2 kHz but I have seen settings of 4 kHz.

Is all this OK so far ?

Yesterday I recorder 9 h and 45 minutes from 21:30 till 06:00 hours but so far nothing suspicious in the video nor the audio. Took a transmitter about 700 km far away from my site on TV frequency Channel 12 = 204 MHz. The AVI is 21.5 GB :lol:

Thanks and regards Rainer


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

Spectrum Lab simply measures, displays and records audio frequencies, so nothing to do with the radio frequency. The vfo setting is not important. It is not used in this part of Spectrum Lab. The audio tone (frequency) generated by a meteor results from the difference between the SDR tuned frequency and the broadcast frequency, hence why the SDR is de-tuned by 2kHz to generate a 2kHz tone when the meteor enters the atmosphere. (It’s the frequency difference between an internal oscillator in the SDR and the radio frequency). Spectrum Lab is ‘listening’ for this tone.

Keep Spectrum Lab set up as per the configuration file and just de-tune the SDR to 2kHz below the target radio frequency. Set to USB and 4kHz bandwidth unless there is a radio signal within this bandwidth, in which case you can narrow it a bit to cut out this signal.

I think you may be overthinking this, Rainer.

Stu.


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Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Carbon60 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:45 pm Hi Rainer,

Spectrum Lab simply measures, displays and records audio frequencies, so nothing to do with the radio frequency. The vfo setting is not important. It is not used in this part of Spectrum Lab. The audio tone (frequency) generated by a meteor results from the difference between the SDR tuned frequency and the broadcast frequency, hence why the SDR is de-tuned by 2kHz to generate a 2kHz tone when the meteor enters the atmosphere. (It’s the frequency difference between an internal oscillator in the SDR and the radio frequency). Spectrum Lab is ‘listening’ for this tone.

Keep Spectrum Lab set up as per the configuration file and just de-tune the SDR to 2kHz below the target radio frequency. Set to USB and 4kHz bandwidth unless there is a radio signal within this bandwidth, in which case you can narrow it a bit to cut out this signal.

I think you may be overthinking this, Rainer.

Stu.
Hi Stu,

Thank you for the explanation and it is clearer now. So what I will hear is a 2 kHz tone. Good to know.
I think you may be overthinking this, Rainer.
Yes that is very possible. Normally I go the KISS way but this time all this info is overwhelming.

I started now to point at distant TV transmitters in Mexico and let it run and record audio an video every night.

As we say in Germany " Even a Blind chicken finds a grain from time to time " I have time until Leonid Meteor shower to see what happens

:bow2


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

It is me again :roll: . Well I did run two days for 9 hours the SDR and recorded a video with audio. After analizing the both videos I get very short ping but not with a very high pitch but a lower pitch which seems to be 1 kHz.

I am pointing at a transmitter 1225 km away which is possibly transmitting in TV Channel which is 180 MHz. On september 10 I tuned the SDR to 180 311 000 Hz which is the ATSC pilot carrier.

Look at the echoes in form of lines up to double of the height of the base noise.

01_Extracted_video_pieces_20200911.JPG
01_Extracted_video_pieces_20200911.JPG (195.45 KiB) Viewed 2714 times

In order to know what frquency that was I did put the ATSC pilot carrier using 596 310 000 MHz (a nearby TV transmitter) in that way that I could hear the 1 kHz tone. As you cans ee it is the double height of the base noise.

1kHz_test.JPG
1kHz_test.JPG (182.89 KiB) Viewed 2714 times

So I guess I am receiving echoes on the 1225 km far away transmitter ?

Yesterday September 11 again a run of 9 hours and I got one line and a 12 second long echo ? As you can see below

Channel-8_180_MHz_very_short_echo.JPG
Channel-8_180_MHz_very_short_echo.JPG (132.45 KiB) Viewed 2714 times

Channel-8_180_MHz_12s_echo.JPG
Channel-8_180_MHz_12s_echo.JPG (132.51 KiB) Viewed 2714 times

Now comparing September 10 and september 11 the high lines are sporadic over the 9 hours of recording. Some are higher and some are less high but they all stand out from the base noise. Today I will run a test with Spectrum Lab.

Full_sound_line_20200910-11.JPG
Full_sound_line_20200910-11.JPG (103.25 KiB) Viewed 2714 times
Full_sound_line_20200911-12.JPG
Full_sound_line_20200911-12.JPG (115.3 KiB) Viewed 2714 times


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Carbon60 »

Hi Rainer,

No problem. I happy to try to help.

The following article might be helpful. https://www.rasc.ca/sites/default/file ... aNotes.pdf. It seems that successful detection using digital TV carrier waves is very dependent on your location, how crowded the airwaves are and the tuned frequency.

It might also be beneficial to search for a VHF radio beacon or FM radio station 100 to 600km away.

I think one of the issues might be that the remote TV transmitter could be too weak and a little bit too far away. The long trail you’ve detected won’t have been a meteor.

Stu.


H-alpha, WL and Ca II K imaging kit for various image scales.
Fluxgate Magnetometers (1s and 150s Cadence).
Radio meteor detector.
More images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarcarbon60/
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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Stu,

Thank you. Looks like I am doing some progress with my chosen frequency at 180 MHz tuning on the ATSC pilot carrier +310 kHz.

Here some pings extracted from my 10 hour video. What do you think ? Some are debatable but the time is very very short. The ones with red center are not more then 500 ms.

I added 2 s before and 2 s afterwards.

https://rainerehlert.com/000_RTLSDR/202 ... O-NHSA.mp4
Last edited by rsfoto on Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.


regards Rainer

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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by Montana »

Wow!! that sounds great! we saw quite a few meteors last night while we were watching stars and satellites and I was thinking of you :)

Alexandra


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Re: Perseid Meteor Detection by Radio

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

UPDATE

Looks like the chi Cygnids are active.

https://www.meteornews.net/2020/09/11/m ... mber-2020/

As I have clouds and radio waves are not affected by clouds I have been working on my RMO :-)

Here a video of what I got from yesterday September 16 to today morning September 17

There are some nice impacts as far as I would say. Video is 2:07 minutes long.

https://rainerehlert.com/000_RTLSDR/202 ... O-NHSA.mp4


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
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