New camera

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New camera

Post by Ibbo » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:40 pm

I am looking at ugrading the DMK for solar and my planetary imaging.

At present I use the 21 for planets and 31 for solar

I was looking for recommendations or thought on the matter.
Last night I was looking at the Point Grey stuff and the Blackfly in particular.

I have read that CMOS/CCD is now much closer and that I may be better going for the cmos


Any thoughts would be much appreciated to stop me going down the wrong road

Thanks
Steve


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Re: New camera

Post by marktownley » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:00 pm

I've heard it's newtons rings galore with the blackfly...


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Re: New camera

Post by Montana » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:10 pm

I wouldn't buy a CMOS, what about the DMK51 that is supposed to be very good for solar or the Grasshopper 3.

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Re: New camera

Post by swisswalter » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:30 pm

Hi Steve

the DMK51 is certainly a good choice.


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Re: New camera

Post by Ibbo » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:45 pm

Thanks for the info :hamster:

I was looking for something that would do both solar/planetary

Its the frame rate I want to get up a bit on Jupiter as I was told its not good to push the 21 above 30fps as you get artefacts

The Grasshopper is a bit rich for me at the moment

Is the Flea an option?


cheers
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Re: New camera

Post by aboy » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:58 pm



The Grasshopper is a bit rich for me at the moment

I hear you :pinch: same here.

I own a DMK51 and I'm happy with the camera. You can see a few shoots with the DMK51 here in my last post with pictures:

Shoots with the DMK51


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Re: New camera

Post by MapleRidge » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:59 pm

Hi Steve...

How large an array do you want for solar?

I have been using an ICX445 chipped camera (PGR Flea2G Firewire) for planetary work the past year and it works very well. It is also very sharp for solar, but a smaller FOV than some of the other cameras on the market.

They offer the Chameleon camera line with this chip that run USB2.

Let me know if you have any questions,
Brian


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Re: New camera

Post by aboy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:31 am



They offer the Chameleon camera line with this chip that run USB2.


Steve.. I have a question:

The Chameleon Camera its the same or better that the DMK51?

Fps rate and chip size? :?

Thanks :hamster:


"I'm enough of an artist to draw freely on my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited; imagination encircles the world."

--Albert Einstein, October 26, 1929
------------------------------------------------------------

EQ:

Double stack 60mm Coronado ( pre-meade ) H-alpha filters with a 15 blocking filter.

DMK 51AU02 the imaging source Mono CCD camera.

Orion Short 2x Barlow.

Explore Scientific 102mm f/7 Air-Spaced Triplet ED Apochromatic Refractor Telescope.

Astrotelescope ( Planet Killer ) 102mm f/11 hand corrected doublet. Refractor Telescope.

Losmandy - G11 ( Gemini 1 )

FireCapture, AutoStakkert 2, PixInsight, Registack 6 and Photoshop CS 6.

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Re: New camera

Post by MapleRidge » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:19 am

The ICX445 chip has an array 1296x964, with 3.75u pixels...provides high resolution at moderate focal lengths. Full frame, it is rates at 18FPS.

The Chameleon data sheet is found at this link: http://www.ptgrey.com/products/chameleo ... asheet.pdf

The DMK51 is 1600x1200 pixels, and they are 4.4u. Their specs say it can run 12 FPS. This is fitted with the ICX274 chip, which has a very good track record in astronomy.
http://www.theimagingsource.com/en_US/p ... dmk51au02/

The 445 chip measure 4.86x3.62mm vs the 274 which is approx. 7.0x5.28mm. Imaging area of the 274 chip is 1.4x that of the 445. The 445 chip has very good red sensitivity (Sony EXHAD series), so it performs well for Ha...keep exposures shorter.

The suggested retail for the DMK51 is $1,000 and the Chameleon is $375.00 (both in $US, plus shipping).

I'm not sure what scopes you intend to use the camera on for solar, but using a LS60 as an example you will have a FOV of 33'x25' with the 445 and a resolution of 1.55"/pixel. The DMK51 on the same scope gives a 48'x36' and 1.82"/pixel. Lots of frame to get full sun...again, depends upon your scope and desired need for full disk vs hi-res capture of smaller features.

Brian


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Re: New camera

Post by Montana » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:40 am

Yes the Chameleon is nearly the same spec as the DMK41 and works very well with Solar, I think Robert from the Isle of Skye has one. If it is anything like my Grasshopper if you use ROI in Firecapture you can up the frame rate at least past 30 fps, I've not done much of this yet so I can't say what the figures are.

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Re: New camera

Post by Ibbo » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:22 pm

thanks again for the food for thought

I need to go to quiet room and look through all the specs


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Re: New camera

Post by Ibbo » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:47 am

I have had another flick through the specs and think this may be a contender

http://dev.ptgrey.com/flea3-13-mp-mono- ... on-c-mount

does anybody use this cam? or thoughts on it

just got to confirm that it will do ROI and get a better frame rate


I am consigned to the fact that for full disc I will have to do mosaics and that i was finding not too much of a chore last year.


all info welcome

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Re: New camera

Post by MapleRidge » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:23 am

Steve...

No reason that model shouldn't work well enough, but you do need a gigabit Ethernet connection to run it at full speed, and be sure to get power for the camera...as I understand it not all computers can supply power over Ethernet (POE). They have a power supply listed in the accessories available.

I suggest you get in touch with Point Grey and send them the specs on your computer and make sure that it will work, or get a complete list of what is needed.

Brian


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Re: New camera

Post by Ibbo » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:53 am

Thanks Brian for your thoughts
we have a dealer in the UK and I will get in touch with them if I go ahead

I'm sure this would not be happening if Sol was above my local horizon

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Re: New camera

Post by swisswalter » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:33 am

Hi Steve

both my Basler CCD's have Gige connection and I'm very happy with the performance


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Re: New camera

Post by MapleRidge » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

Hi Walter...

Good that you confirmed the GigE interface worked well for you. I knew that there were GigE cameras in use, but couldn't recall who had them.

Steve...if you need the large array of the DMK51 for solar, it works to use a smaller ROI for planetary work and not give up the wide FOV when needed. Ideally, you could likely get a better match to wants and needs on both fronts by using 2 cameras...but the finances don't always permit that.

Good luck in your selections,
Brian


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Re: New camera

Post by donatpointgrey » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:04 pm

I've heard it's newtons rings galore with the blackfly...

(Point Grey lurker chiming in)

Hi Mark,

I saw this thread and was going to suggest to Steve that he consider the Blackfly as it is cheaper than the Flea3 and if he is going GigE, seemed like a good option, but then I saw your comment... and I don't want to recommend a bad option :)

Do you have any more information on this - specifically I'm wondering on the Blackfly model that has this problem.

Here is my suspicion... I think Newton Rings seem more likely for some reason on CMOS sensors. I'm not sure why, I think it has to do with the sensor plate glass. The Blackfly initial offerings were mostly CMOS. However, the Blackfly mechanicals are virtually identical to the Flea. So for the same sensor (ICX445) I don't see why there would be any more problems with the Blackfly. It uses the same sensor-mount, same optical window, same quality of machining on the case. The differences between Flea and Blackfly are mostly electronic.

So, I think that the ICX445 Blackfly should be not more susceptible to NR than a 445 Flea3 (or for that matter, a Chameleon). Of course, I also believe that NR are hard to predict whether they will appear or not, so I can promise a Blackfly won't have them, just like I'd never promise the same with Chameleon or Flea3...

The reason why I think it is a good option is it is substantially cheaper as a GigE option. Flea3's have the advantage of having a USB3 line-up, but if you are going GigE, Blackfly seemed obvious to me. I also think it is nice that you don't need a separate power connector to the camera (fewer cables to your camrea), as it is Power over Ethernet. However, I don't think most desktops have Power over Ethernet by default and I doubt any laptops do, so in that case you either need a "power brick" to daisy chain in your network cable like this:
http://www.ptgreystore.com/196w-single- ... t-injector
or a network card that supplies PoE like this:
http://www.ptgreystore.com/point-grey-g ... ard-2-port

Anyway, would be interested to hear any comments on this.

Thanks,
Don


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Re: New camera

Post by swisswalter » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:18 pm

Hi Don

thanks for the insights. I had never ever problems with the Baslers CCD's regarding NR, nor with the powersupply (GIGE) they just work perfect.

I did have NR with the DMK41 and 31

I seem not to be having NR problems with the skyris 274M, but I have used it only a few times until today


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Re: New camera

Post by Ibbo » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:59 am

I have a DMK 21 & 31

I have the dreaded NR with the 31 when using the x 2.5 powermate.
Otherwise I have no seen a problem.

Work (if you can call what I do work) and life have been in the way this last week.
The camera will be on hold until the insurance pays up for the vets bills on the dog.

Just finished my powerpoint for Saturdays Star gazing Live and guess what I have the sun even though its in the evening. I will be taking the scope and showing a few of my images


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Re: New camera

Post by swisswalter » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:17 am

Hi Steve

have a good presentation in the evening and a lot of observers


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

from 7 am - 7 pm http://www.nanosys.ch

from 7.01 pm - 6.59 am http://www.wastronomiko.com some times vice versa ;)

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Re: New camera

Post by fjabet » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:03 am

I guys,

I integrate cameras with our Genika Astro software here in Europe and validate loads of sensor for scientific and amateur astronomy.

Here are my insights :

- The ICX445 is a very good performer for those who don't want heavy processing and are on a budget. It can perform very well for planetary up to the C11 (I've customers using C14 as well), and for solar imaging. Drawback : it's slow (we sell it in the Basler 1300-30gm/um) at 32 fps / 40 Mpixel/s. Dynamic is fair (9,6 bits in the Basler). No interferences pattern in narrowband imaging.

- The ICX274 (Skynix 2.2 / Basler 1600 / Skyris 274) has a quite large chip (1/1.8") and a pretty resolution (2 Mpixel). It's very clean being in the HAD generation, but less sensitive than the deeply depleted Exview/Exvies HAD II series, and it's very slow at 20 fps. The throughput is close from the Exview series at 39 Mpixel/s. The dynamic is higher than ICX445's. It's clearly an end of life product but still usable and interesting in solar imaging. In planetary it's vastly outperform now.

- The CMOS E2V 76C560 and its deeply depleted counter part 76C661 NIR are very solid performers. Quite high throughput at 80 Mpixel/s (1280*1024@60fps), 122 fps in 1280*480 for planetary, the best QE overall for the 76C661 version, ability to run both global and rolling shutter (rolling shutter is a show stopper for solar imaging). It's a bit noisy in global shutter (about 17 e-, a bit more in the NIR version) but gets far better in rolling shutter mode. It show more interferences than the CCD equivalents. And it's cheap !

- For high end, the choice is between the CCD Exview HADII family (ICX687, 674, 694, 914) and the powerful CMOSIS CMV4000. The Sony's are easy to live with, show small noise (8 to 11 e- depending on the number of taps) and nice resolution. They are faster than the previous generation, especially in the AVT porfolio (up to 40 fps in quad taps, 8,5 e- read out noise for the AVT 1920GT that is the best not cooled camera with this sensor) but in the absolute it's still slow when compared to the CMOSIS. They can show some inteferences as the sensor gets bigger, but it's still ok and manageable.
The CMOSIS CMV4000 is a story on its own. Very fast (90 fps 4 Mpixels in global shutter mode, that's 377 Mpixels per second) and square, it's for me the very best choice for solar and lunar imaging. It's a tricky one : fringes, PRNU, flat and offset are required, but it show thanks to its speed details that Sony's won't. I compared side by side both ICX674 and CMV4000 and even if raw images are cleaner with the Sony, the final result is better with the CMOSIS. It has been also compared with the ICX674 by one of the best imager worldwide (C. Viladrich) for the same conclusion. But the learning curve is - very - steep and you'll need a gamer's laptop with SATA3 SSD :)

As of Pointgrey, we did support them before (in Genika Astro 2.0), and we decided to remove them from the list of the supported cameras because the software and hardware quality.
At this stage we work with Basler, IDS, AVT. Next on the list are Andor and Raptor Photonics but those are rather for our professional observatory customers.

You can find some pictures done by amateurs there : http://www.airylab.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=72

Frédéric.


Looking for professional reports about telescopes ?

http://www.airylab.fr/AirylabUS/index.p ... &Itemid=57

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Re: New camera

Post by swisswalter » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:17 am

Hi Frédéric


thank you very much for that sum up.

If I understand right, for solar work, the first choice would be CMV4000 with a new laptop, the second choice with the ICX687, followed by the ICX 674


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

from 7 am - 7 pm http://www.nanosys.ch

from 7.01 pm - 6.59 am http://www.wastronomiko.com some times vice versa ;)

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Re: New camera

Post by fjabet » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:26 am

Hi Walter,
that depends on your setup and your willingness to cope with the CMOSIS issues.

If your have a short FL, then the ICX687 is very nice, a super ICX445. Easy to use, nice resolution, nice dynamic, clean images.

If you have a long one for high resolution, then two options :

- if you want out of the box images, take the ICX674. The faster the better, really. It varies from 26 to 40 fps. Take into account the 12bits mode as the CCD itself shows a good dynamic and the speed is the same sensor wise. Take also into account the read out noise. The quad taps have lower noise, but they are more expensive.

- if you want the best, no matter the pain and the time, at this moment it is the CMOSIS. I didn't test the new Exmor 178 though and that may be a nice contender if Sony didn't drop massive on the fly processing in it (noise suppression, accentuation...). Given the very low noise level, I'm a bit worried on this point.


Looking for professional reports about telescopes ?

http://www.airylab.fr/AirylabUS/index.p ... &Itemid=57

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Re: New camera

Post by swisswalter » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:39 pm

Hi Frédéric

thanks for the additional information and explanation.


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

from 7 am - 7 pm http://www.nanosys.ch

from 7.01 pm - 6.59 am http://www.wastronomiko.com some times vice versa ;)

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Re: New camera

Post by astrodanco » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:49 pm

:idea: I still have a practically new Point Grey Grasshopper Express ICX674 Mono Camera for sale for a low price if anyone is interested.



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