HELP QUARK

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HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

As a few know I have a QUARK and looks like I will have some Sun today and I would like to know if I focus with an eyepiece, will the focus for a camera be the same or at least near ?

Thanks


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by MalVeauX »

It will be close in my experience, but not exact. I've had variation of up to about 1cm either way with different positions of my sensor for focus, relative to an eyepiece. Depends on how deep the nose goes, etc.

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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by PDB »

Rainer,

it is not varying that much. Think I have some difference of 5 mm more out-focus on the 80mm f/6. (did not measure on the 120, but the difference is also small)

Rgrds,

Paul


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by MalVeauX »

The fuzz are spicules if I recall :)

Some examples:

Image

Image

I focus on a surface feature with the camera at a high (near clipping off the right of the histogram) exposure value. I let the seeing show me what it's doing for a few seconds. If I see a sharp pencil drawing look, then I'm focused enough and I don't further change it for the time being, otherwise you can chase the seeing with focus all day. Then I change my exposure values for the limb/prominences (totally clipping the surface) to capture the spicules & proms as a separate exposure from the surface. I capture 300 frames of the proms/limb at one exposure value (usually 10ms, 99 gamma, and whatever gain it takes to see the proms, usually 150~180 at F35), then quickly change exposure to 10ms, 0 gamma, and reduced gain for the surface in the same position (often 50~80 gain at F35). I make a composite of the two later in post.

Very best,


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Marty and Paul,

Thanks. I found focus yesterday by first using an eye piece and then sticking in the quark with an eye piece and then I exchanged the eye piece with the camera. Unfortunately the Sky conditions did not allow to get into perfect focus.

I was able to see the fur on the limb. What is it called correctly ?

The video I made did not come out as I had some wrong settings. That happens when one does not use it for a long time and one forgets how to set the software :oops:

Look at the image of the sky conditions :shock: Perhaps today it is better so I can keep testing it.

IMG_3630_C1.jpg
IMG_3630_C1.jpg (93.61 KiB) Viewed 4275 times


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

MalVeauX wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 2:52 pm The fuzz are spicules if I recall :)

Some examples:

Image

Image

I focus on a surface feature with the camera at a high (near clipping off the right of the histogram) exposure value. I let the seeing show me what it's doing for a few seconds. If I see a sharp pencil drawing look, then I'm focused enough and I don't further change it for the time being, otherwise you can chase the seeing with focus all day. Then I change my exposure values for the limb/prominences (totally clipping the surface) to capture the spicules & proms as a separate exposure from the surface. I capture 300 frames of the proms/limb at one exposure value (usually 10ms, 99 gamma, and whatever gain it takes to see the proms, usually 150~180 at F35), then quickly change exposure to 10ms, 0 gamma, and reduced gain for the surface in the same position (often 50~80 gain at F35). I make a composite of the two later in post.

Very best,
Hi Marty,

Thanks for the info how you do it

Rainer


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

HI,

Well I found out how to focus my QUARK but the Sky thinks my QUARK is obsolete :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
IMG_3645_C1.jpg
IMG_3645_C1.jpg (75.13 KiB) Viewed 4245 times


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by Merlin66 »

The furry edge is the spiculation layer.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Merlin66 wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 11:55 am The furry edge is the spiculation layer.
Thank you :bow2


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Continuing with this story well yesterday I manged to find th approx focus point but of course the details on the Sun where impossible so I just made a short test image. Looks like today I have a bit more of Sun.

But what I do not like are those very fine newton rings. I am using the Quark on a FS 78 with a Lumenera Infinity 2-1RM

Here is the very first Light image of the QUARK and the following days I need Sun and patience. It is a PITA not having an electric focuser on this sort of focal length 630 x 4.3 = 2700 mm :roll:
2018-05-13_18-54-55-1f_500.jpg
2018-05-13_18-54-55-1f_500.jpg (599.54 KiB) Viewed 4126 times


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by Merlin66 »

Rainer,
I’ve fitted the simple SW electronic focus motor to all myscopes -works very well for me.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by PDB »

Hello Rainer,

electric focusers are not that difficult to build, and there are plenty of good designs to make a controller (inlcuded ascom) using arduinos with motorshields or steppermotor driver. The most difficult thing for me was making an attachment to the focuser. (I am a software man, not very handy in building stuff, maybe I need a 3D printer). I have used https://sourceforge.net/projects/arduin ... erpro2diy/ There is now also a version if you prefer DC motors https://sourceforge.net/projects/mydcfo ... dcfocuser/ (these work better than some crap I bought to automate my C8 with Crayford focuser)

The newton rings are easy to deal with. What I found is the higher the f/num the more chance of Newton rings. So a reducer after the Quark sometimes helps. Or just a little tilt. And there is also a software solution using Fast Fourier Transforms in Photoshop, Gimp or AstroImageJ.

To focus in difficult conditions I use the histogram. Aim at the solar limb, and you see a dip in the histogram. Then change focus and the dip will go up/down. When it is at its lowest point, you should be in focus.

But: was your Quark heated? Even wih bad atmosphere, there should be some detail visible. The image looks very pale.

Regards,

Paul


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by Montana »

Yes I would be more concerned with the lack of surface detail than the NR at this moment!

Alexandra


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Merlin66 wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 5:25 am Rainer,
I’ve fitted the simple SW electronic focus motor to all myscopes -works very well for me.
Hi Ken,

I expressed myself unfortunately. What I wanted to say is that I still would ahve to put one of my focusers on the scope. I have all my scopes with own made focusers just the 2 telescopes I have at home are still not fitted with them

Look here how my focusers look like. I also have a motorized rotator on each telescope in the Observatory.
RS-Focus-BabyQ-00.jpg
RS-Focus-BabyQ-00.jpg (617.61 KiB) Viewed 4062 times


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Montana wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 7:03 am Yes I would be more concerned with the lack of surface detail than the NR at this moment!

Alexandra
Hi Alexandra,

Same here I did not put enough Information. With that sort of Sky conditions I had I was happy to see the limb on the Sun and make Focus tests :seesaw So taking in consideration the Sky conditions there is not yet a reason to worry about it.

Yesterday it was better but still very high thin clouds which kill all sort of Details.

As I said I need a really clear sky but at the Moment I am happy being able to Focus. Yesterday I even saw a M shaped prominence but still bad sky conditions. I also saw some Details on the Sun surface as some Filaments but of course not the same as with my Observatory set up.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

PDB wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 6:31 am Hello Rainer,

electric focusers are not that difficult to build, and there are plenty of good designs to make a controller (inlcuded ascom) using arduinos with motorshields or steppermotor driver. The most difficult thing for me was making an attachment to the focuser. (I am a software man, not very handy in building stuff, maybe I need a 3D printer). I have used https://sourceforge.net/projects/arduin ... erpro2diy/ There is now also a version if you prefer DC motors https://sourceforge.net/projects/mydcfo ... dcfocuser/ (these work better than some crap I bought to automate my C8 with Crayford focuser)

The newton rings are easy to deal with. What I found is the higher the f/num the more chance of Newton rings. So a reducer after the Quark sometimes helps. Or just a little tilt. And there is also a software solution using Fast Fourier Transforms in Photoshop, Gimp or AstroImageJ.

To focus in difficult conditions I use the histogram. Aim at the solar limb, and you see a dip in the histogram. Then change focus and the dip will go up/down. When it is at its lowest point, you should be in focus.

But: was your Quark heated? Even wih bad atmosphere, there should be some detail visible. The image looks very pale.

Regards,

Paul
Hi Paul,

Yes the QUARK was heated and yes, yesterday I started to see Details on the suns surface and also at the limb some hints of Spicules. The weather is really not cooperating and when I ahve Chance to get the into into the QUARK it starts at an altitude of about 29° so I know those are also not the best conditions as poiunting onto the zenith as I can in my Observatory.

On Thursday 17th I will be in the Observatory for a few days and test it on my FSQ 85 up to the zenith.
Fast Fourier Transforms in Photoshop
¿ where do I find that and how does that work in Photoshop ? I have PS CS6

The image acquisition Software i have Lucam Recorder has a function where I can use the contrast for focusing. I choose a window and there I look at the highest value and there it should be in focus.

Rainer


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by PDB »

Hi Rainer,

here is a thread on CN https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5944 ... om-images/

I find this one very detailed but complicated

In another thread (unfortunately in Dutch) you can see it can be done simpler https://www.astroforum.nl/forum/astrofo ... -oplossing just look at the pictures of the FFT and invere FFT

So you need a Fast Fourier Transformation filter
-> do the de FFT on the image -> search for the errors usually seen fairly clear as defaults in the pattern.
Just wipe them out an do an inverse FFT. After some training you can obtain very good results.

P.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

PDB wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 4:21 pm Hi Rainer,

here is a thread on CN https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5944 ... om-images/

I find this one very detailed but complicated

In another thread (unfortunately in Dutch) you can see it can be done simpler https://www.astroforum.nl/forum/astrofo ... -oplossing just look at the pictures of the FFT and invere FFT

So you need a Fast Fourier Transformation filter
-> do the de FFT on the image -> search for the errors usually seen fairly clear as defaults in the pattern.
Just wipe them out an do an inverse FFT. After some training you can obtain very good results.

P.
Hi Paul,

Will try to replicate it.

Question, would something like a little optical window with a tilt in the optical path take away the Newton Rings ?

Just guessing :mrgreen:
Last edited by rsfoto on Tue May 15, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

PDB wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 4:56 pm Wat works is a prism in the optical path (that is also mentioned in the Dutch explanation). I did some tests with a ZWO ADC and that also works. Actually what that does, since you only work in 1 frequency) it tilts the focal plane instead of the camera. Same effect.

P
Hi Paul,

AH, I understand and so a parallell optical surface would only shift the rings a bit to the side.

I will test if the thread of the C-Mount Adapter allows a tiny tilt by putting a shim on one side and tightening it and so the camera is tilted. Hopefully I get some Sun today :mrgreen:

That ZWO ADC is quite big, I have 3 ZWO cameras on the way to me. I guess I will get them in a few weeks.

Rainer


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by PDB »

Wat works is a prism in the optical path (that is also mentioned in the Dutch explanation). I did some tests with a ZWO ADC and that also works. Actually what that does, since you only work in 1 frequency) it tilts the focal plane instead of the camera. Same effect.

P


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Yesterday 14th I got this with this skies. I think I am getting closer :mrgreen:
2018-05-14_18-30-06-1f_500.jpg
2018-05-14_18-30-06-1f_500.jpg (792.49 KiB) Viewed 4032 times
IMG_3671_C1.jpg
IMG_3671_C1.jpg (120.35 KiB) Viewed 4032 times
Today's forecast looks good but this can change quickly in Mexico City
SunForecast_15052018.JPG
SunForecast_15052018.JPG (171.85 KiB) Viewed 4032 times


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Paul,

I downloaded Fiji and tried on an image but I just can not get the rings out of it. Quite difficult.

Look at the screen shot of the test image and the FFT result. I do not know where to exactly mark the lines. I did take the 2 little slightly diagonal lines but no, does not work :?
FFT_Fiji.JPG
FFT_Fiji.JPG (302.52 KiB) Viewed 4020 times
and here the original image in TIF

[The extension tif has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]



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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by PDB »

Hi Rainer,

took the liberty to download your image with the NR's

Tried to do it in GIMP (Fiji can sometimes be cumbersome to do something) and had some problems too. The image was saved in RGB (could be because of the dowload) When I converted it to grey it worked better. (Never had good results with color images, I only used it on monochrome)

So this is what I did and the result. Not perfect yet (still some issues in the bacground, but the disc looks ok. Probably a spike still needs to get blackened)
Test.png
Test.png (135.1 KiB) Viewed 3983 times
Regards,

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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Thank you Paul,

Yhe attached Image is a bit small and I cant see the difference between my original and the FFT processed Image.

Today afternoon I will show you what Fiji ImageJ makes. Also will download GIMP and see how it works,

About the Image being colour yes you are right. The fact is that I am applying a false colur mask in realtime when streaming my videos and it is saved as an RGB Image. I noticed that when ImageJ gave me some advice about processing colour channel 1. I then converted the image into B&W and it ran but with weird results.

I will post one later on.

Rainer


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by MalVeauX »

rsfoto wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 7:14 pm Hi,

Yesterday 14th I got this with this skies. I think I am getting closer :mrgreen:

Today's forecast looks good but this can change quickly in Mexico City

Just a thought, but if you're shooting through window glass, I'm wondering if that will play a role in this?

Very best,
Last edited by MalVeauX on Wed May 16, 2018 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

PDB wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 4:06 pm Download the latest version of Gimp (2.10) and also GMic for gimp that has fantastic filters including the FFT's
I already deleted the converted image on my system but there was a clear difference with the original.

P
Thanks Paul


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by PDB »

Download the latest version of Gimp (2.10) and also GMic for gimp that has fantastic filters including the FFT's
I already deleted the converted image on my system but there was a clear difference with the original.

P


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Here 3 images from yesterday May 15 with the QUARK through the window using a Takahashi FS-78. Still learning how to use it best.

Will put it onto my SKY 90mm as per some info I do not need an ERF for 90mm opening.

Also attached some images of the sky condition.

Looks like no more Newton rings. I shimmed with 0.1mm the camera onto the Quark but really do not know if that cured it or finding a better focused image.

2018-05-15_18-45-46-1f_500.jpg
2018-05-15_18-45-46-1f_500.jpg (723.44 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
2018-05-15_19-06-28-1f_500.jpg
2018-05-15_19-06-28-1f_500.jpg (763.19 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
2018-05-15_19-08-36-1f_500.jpg
2018-05-15_19-08-36-1f_500.jpg (743.88 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
IMG_3672_C1.jpg
IMG_3672_C1.jpg (147.99 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
IMG_3674_C1.jpg
IMG_3674_C1.jpg (107.81 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
IMG_3676_C1.jpg
IMG_3676_C1.jpg (99.43 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
IMG_3677_C1.jpg
IMG_3677_C1.jpg (88.35 KiB) Viewed 1457 times


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by marktownley »

Looks way off band to me Rainer


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

marktownley wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 5:21 am Looks way off band to me Rainer
Hi Mark,

Me too but here in Mexico City I do not have enough sky to test it over hours as the Quark has to cool down. I will need to do this at my Observatory where I have more time but at the moment no hardware to drive my scopes.

Perhaps also the conditions are not the best. Will have to pospone this testing to in a few weeks. I know they gave me a good one with low bandwidth.

I am not yet worried :lol:

Rainer


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by eroel »

Rainer:
I think that the best way to start testing, is to focus it when cool, then put the heat on and keep looking for changes in contrast and refocus as it gets heated.
I believe that altitude (CDMX is 2250meters above mean sea level) also has an effect in getting the filter on band.
I have had some issues with etalons due to altitude and temperature changes.
Del Woods had to test my 2 Daystar filters at an altitude similar to México City, also David Lunt matched my 40mm etalons for the Egypt Venus transit, then had to do an etalon matching again when getting the filters back to México City.
Abrazo,
Eric.


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by MalVeauX »

Rainer,

I'm willing to bet that the window is what is causing the problems. Even if your Quark temp band was off, it would be different from this. To me it looks like what happens when I put a clear plastic bag in front of my objective. I'm betting your window is the problem.

By the way, I focus with it powered, when I test the tuning, I've yet to see it be any different cool versus hot. The difference is simply not chasing the seeing with focus, and figuring out which side (red vs blue) you need to be for maximum contrast. I use the surface for this test, not proms.

If you haven't already, point this scope through an open window without glass in front of it.

For tuning the Quark, you simply set it to 12 o'clock. Take a look. Then turn it all the way clockwise. Take a look. Then turn it all the way counter-clock wise. Take a look. You'll know which direction (towards red wing, or blue wing) you need to be to get best contrast. For me, in my conditions, that value was maximum counter-clockwise towards blue at 9 o'clock position. It doesn't take hours though, 5~7 minutes per value. Just knowing which direction to even test is the biggest time saver. Simply run a quick 200~300 frames once tuned at 12, 9 and 3. Compare the contrast in same conditions/focus. You'll know right away at least which side to start fine tuning things with. But regardless, to get good focus, get that glass out from in front your scope! :)

Very best,


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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Eric and Marty,

" If you haven't already, point this scope through an open window without glass in front of it. "

You both made my Day

:seesaw :seesaw :seesaw :seesaw :seesaw

I would if I could. BTW I have shot through the window with a normal SM 40 and I see more detail in the SM 40 then in the QUARK

:shock: :shock: :shock:


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
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Re: HELP QUARK

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

I am still working on my QUARK chromosphere and slowly but steadily getting better results.

I hope to get the Adapter for my ERF for the SKY 90 and then I will try with 12mm more aperture and see the difference.

Main Problem is really the bad seeing conditions I have had until yesterday. Yesterday was very good compared to all other days as I managed to get a much better focused Image. It is incredible how fine the focusing must be done. Without a fine focuser wheel on the focuser this would be nearly inpossible. Have not had any chance to add a motorized focuser.

Too many open construction sites :shock: especially testing the new mounts from iOptron CEM 120EC2. As any new Born they have some child diseases and I have to say the Tech Support from iOptron is top notch. They even answer Saturday and Sundays as well as on National Holidays ...

Will try to process some AVI's today.


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
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