Narrowest 393.37 ever by Apollo Lasky

Frankenscope? Let's see it!***be advised that NOTHING in this forum has been safety tested and you are reading and using these posts at your own peril. blah, blah, blah... dont mess around with your eyesight when it comes to solar astronomy. Use appropriate filtration at all times...
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:57 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:45 am
consider the following information, directly from baader planetarium . (note that this says PROTUBERANCES - which are prominences,. impossible with astrofilm right? Yet here it is done and published by baader planetarium.de, using a garbage nikon camera.)

nd3.8, not nd5. Obviously the intensity is not the same as a true ERf system, but to say this will not image using astrofilm3.8 is literally wrong. I will post my images when Bob is done doing his thing.

https://astrosolar.com/de/informationen ... ha/#halpha

"Note from Baader Planetarium: What we have always considered impossible and have always answered in such a way with inquiries to our Narrowband filters, that succeeded in this admission of a customer. His wonderful single shot shows some shadowy protuberances on the edge of the sun - and a plane in the middle. This experiment works photographically, visually the solar disk would fade the protuberances, we have to advise against visual experiments of this kind for eye protection reasons! "
From the same page at Baader Planetarium:
"Zur Aufnahmetechnik, das finale Bild besteht aus 2 separaten Belichtungen. Um den extremen Helligkeitsunterschied zu händeln mit zwei unterschiedlichen Belichtungszeiten. Das Bild mit der Oberfläche und dem Flugzeug ist 1/200 sec belichtet (ISO 200), das Bild mit den Protuberanzen 0.3 sec (ISO 200).

Die Bearbeitung habe ich mit Photoshop und Nik-Collektion (plug-in von google für Photoshop) gemacht.

Aufnahmeoptik war das Celestron EHD 11″ mit Reducer (x0.7), Kamera war die Nikon D810a, dazwischen war noch der 3.5nm."

Translates as:
"To capture technique: the final image consists of 2 separate exposures To handle the extreme difference in brightness with two different exposure times The image with the surface and the aircraft is exposed to 1/200 sec (ISO 200), the image with the protuberances 0.3 sec (ISO 200).

The editing I have done with Photoshop and Nik-collection (plug-in from Google for Photoshop).

Recording optics was the Celestron EHD 11 "with Reducer (x0.7), camera was the Nikon D810a, in between was still the 3.5nm."

Peoples, who are willing to work at F/7 and image the protuberances at 0.3sec exposure? Anyone?
Who are willing to downscale your such images in 10x to make them look barely barely acceptable for a quick glance? Anyone?
Who are willing to image the sun chromsphere surface with 0.05nm filter and Astrosolar at F/7 and about 2sec exposure at best and then downsize the image about 10x? Anyone?

Let see how may followers will try to repeat this experience or even go further in to the CaK.


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:13 am

krakatoa1883 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:28 pm

@Valery - thanks for your advice, I will consider all options before purchasing anything for converting my Mewlon to Calcium imaging.
Even a such one with Astrosolar?

https://astrosolar.com/de/informationen ... ha/#halpha
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by mdwmark » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:07 am

My attempts with the nd 3.8 astrosolar film was for visial. I was not trying to image with it. The filter I was using had 75%T and it was to dark for my eyes.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Bob Yoesle » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:54 am

Hi everyone,

I have a couple of new images from my first run that for some reason didn't process correctly the first time, but had better seeing/resolution. The overall results do not change however:

CT 0.1 nm, exposure 0.100 ms:
CT 0.1.jpg
CT 0.1.jpg (202.84 KiB) Viewed 961 times
PST 0.2 nm, exposure 0.191 ms:
PST 01.jpg
PST 01.jpg (282.06 KiB) Viewed 961 times
There seems to be some weird horizontal lines in the CT image. Not sure the origin of these, but it might be related to the very short exposure near the lower limit of FireCapture's ability to record...?

Unfortunately I can not measure the CWL, all I have is the previous plot supplied by Chroma Tech. Might have to play with the Skybender unit to see if tilting improves performance. The reason I included the Baader K line with the CT is that it seems to work OK with the PST filters, and I wanted to do an "apples to apples" comparison. Next time I will either remove the tilted component as advised earlier, or use the Edmund 400 nm short pass, or possibly nothing at all (all of which might require some additional ND filters to get a longer exposure time.) I will also will try my 2.8 x Klee barlow to get beyond f20 if and when seeing permits...
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:47 am

Hi Bob, I think I recognize the horizontal links, and think they are indeed caused by the camera in combination with the very short exposure. When you blow up the PST image you seems to see the same pattern.
Gain is zero, gamma neutral?
Would a ND 0.6 or 0.8 or a polariser help to get the exposure longer?
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by krakatoa1883 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:11 pm

Valery wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:13 am
Even a such one with Astrosolar?

https://astrosolar.com/de/informationen ... ha/#halpha
of course not, at least for H alpha. My calcium H device doesn't show nothing through my Mewlon 210 with full aperture AS 3.8 film, this is the reason I would be very much interested in a filter that could do it. We'll see.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by christian viladrich » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:35 pm

Ok ... I didn't want to jump into this, but it seems there is some misunderstanding about filter transmision and exposure time ;-)

Let's start with the exposure time required for high resolution imaging and a K-Line filter (396 nm, about 8 nm FWHM):

1) With an Hershel diagonal, the exposure time is in the range of 1 ms with the gain of the camera set to the minimum.
Of course, it depends on the sensor, sky transparency, etc. Still 1 ms is a good starting point for the following calculations.

2) If you remember that the transmission of the Hershel diagonal is about 4%, or 1/25, then it is straigtforward to calculate the exposure time with a density filter.

3) Density 3.8, means transmisson = 1/6300. So, if we use an Astrosolar d 3.8 instead of the Hershel diagonal with the K-line, the exposure time will be in the range of 1 ms x 6300 / 25 = 250 ms = 1/4 s.
This is way too long for HR imaging.
Of course, the gain of the camera can be increased to reduce exposure time, but this would reduce the S/N, and no good at all for HR imaging.

4 ) Intermediate conclusion : K-line filter is only for Hershel diagonal (or non aluminized telescope), not for Astrosolar 3.8.

5 ) Now, let's assume we are using a 396 nm / 0.1 nm FWHM filter (and a d= 3.8 Astrosolar) instead of a 396 nm/8 nm . Let's assume the peak transmission of both filters is about the same. The exposure time with the 0.1 FWHM will be about x 80 exposure time of the 8 nm filter, i.e. 1/4 x 80 = 20 s ...

6) If the peak transmission of the 0.1 nm filter is 100% while the peak transmission of the K-line is only 50%, then the exposure time with the 0.1 nm filter is 10 s (with the Astrosolar 3.8) ...

In a nutshell :
- if the target is HR imaging, K-line filter is only with Hershel diagonal or non aluminized Newtonian ;
- still, it is possible to take some K-line images with Astrosolar 3.8 (with long exposure time, high gain, short focal length), but no HR images ;
- going from K-line to Ca K (please remember the K-line filter is not a Ca K filter) still increases the exposure time. This is pratical only with the use of Hershel diagonal, or better with no Hershel at all. In the later case, the heat load should be handle properly, which is an achievement by itself for aperture > 100 mm...
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:09 pm

Hi Christian,
Baader sells their K-line with the ND 3.8 Astrosolar. Am I correct that you conclude that with this combination one is not able to obtain HR images?
And if you talk about a wedge, it is without the (almost standard) ND 3.0 I suppose. Correct?
Thanks, Bart.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by mdwmark » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:30 am

Hi Bob,
the only reason I can think of why the .1nm filters has a lower contrast then the PST is that it is not fully blocked. Or it is not on band. There may be a leak in the long side blocking. It is not uncommon to have a blue/green leak that would drop the contrast of the image. Are you using a KG filter to block the IR? The camera could be seeing some IR if you don't.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Bob Yoesle » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:24 pm

Hi Mark,

I used a Baader Blue CCD filter, followed by a KG3, and then the Baader K line as ERF and blocking filters prior to the CT and PST filters. I will next attempt some tests with tilting the CT, and at f25 using a UO Klee barlow if/when my seeing allows. I likely will remove the Baader K line for the remainder of CT filter evaluations, as Dick at Chroma said it would be unnecessary, and I only used it so the comparison with the PST filters was identical - hopefully will get rid of the reflection issue(s).

BTW - Chroma did say they could make a 2 cavity filter @ 0.1 nm, but 3 or more cavities would not be possible for them at such a narrow band pass. This leaves me to wonder what the "magic" is for the Coronado and Lunt filters - wish we had some transmission profiles for those filters...
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by christian viladrich » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:42 pm

To Bart :
- Yes, the Hershel wedge is used without any density filter.
- Regarding Baader Planetarium policy, my guess - and this is just a guess - is that they don't want to take any risks. It is impossible for them to know whom they are selling the filters to. Beginners or experienced amateurs looks the same ;-)

You can check at my solar page the exposure time I used for a variety of filter and instrument combinations :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/soleil/soleil.html
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by christian viladrich » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:47 pm

To Mark and Bob,
The K-line is a marvellous filter to block any leakage outside a 10 nm band arround 396 nm, from 300 nm to 1700 nm.
So the issue should be related to the CWL.
F/25 and some tilt might set the case.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 am

mdwmark wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:28 am
What is all this about .1nm or .14nm at K-line. They will both give a great image. With the amount of T ,you will probably need some color glass or an ND filter to drop the transmission down or the exposure will be to fast for the camera.
I ask Bob to check if the spacers where high or low index. So I did a little design for a .1nm single cavity filter.
The design with the high index(2) came out at .09nm in the perfect world(100%). At F/30 it drop to .1nm and the T was 90%, at F/20 the Hw went to .15nm and 78%, then at F/15 it was .27nm and 52%T.
So I flip the design and made the spacer a low index(1.5). The same number of layers gave a .07nm perfect world (100%), at F/30 it drop to .1nm and 68%,at F/20 it was .24nm and 41%T,at F/15 it was .35nm and 25%T.
So either way if you keep this filter near F/30 it will be a killer filter at K-line
If your worried about IR blocking , just add some KG5. That will cut the IR after the 1200nm.
This is the same problem with fast F# you will have with any brand that is a single cavity filter.
Mark W.
Hi Mark,

Given this is a high index filter what does the transmission and bandwidth work out used in a F/10 and F/7 system? I know it is going to be wider bandwidth and lower transmission, just wondering what the numbers actually are?

Thanks

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 am

Would love to see the results you are getting. I'm using a tilted 387/10 filter in my CaK system.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Merlin66 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:04 am

Guys,
You are confirming my thoughts and experience with filters and etalons.....
You really need to have a spectrograph to allow accurate measurement of CWL and transmission curves.
I can test any filter/ filter combo with a resolution (as measured) <0.02A across the whole solar spectrum (370-8000A), unfortunately I'm in Australia which makes things a bit more difficult.
Building a capable spectrograph is well within the "average" amateur's DIY capability.
Think about it.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:26 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:36 am
but I can give you some insane prominence images from my $25.00 standard meade 90mm x 800mm achromat with a plastic focuser. (it does have a kg3 filter mounted on the last baffle)

in fact I am getting such great performance with my chroma filter
2-3 images worth or millions words. So, give us these images you are talking about. And we will see.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:37 pm

I know well one thing: if it will not work for Bob, it will not work for anybody else.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Merlin66 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:16 pm

Skybender,
I think you miss-read my message...there was no intention of inferring you or the others are not capable of setting up filters.
I was suggesting, we as amateur solar observers, should have access to a capable spectrograph to allow us to confirm our own set-ups.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:10 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 pm


This is is the actual carey spectrometer plot I originally got from chroma. Now here, represented without energy rejection, it is just pure reduction via Neutral density to bring it down to 20%.

Where did the wings go? poof gone. The actual 393.4 energy rejection filter trim's the side band off even greater, this is called

please, patience.

lowest angstrom calcium filter ever.png

The only way out is to double stack this filter at the same substrate.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:51 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 am
Valery i just cannot comment on you anymore. You just do not understand how blocking out of band light works.

I suggest you read the schematics for an entire h-alpha system, or read the patent on the blockers and trimmers used in daystar filters. This is my last comment. I am sorry, there is just no point in fighting or arguing about this. It never solves anything, and never did in the history of mankind.
Again, Fred Jaber was 100% correct. You just not understand how the blocking filter works and how the DS works.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:16 am

Don't understand everything in this conversation, but I thought that doublestacking two identical etalons did have an effect on the wing profile. When I doublestack my two PST etalons there is no longer a double limb effect. Am I completely missing the point here?

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:10 pm

1. One can't get narrower FWHM by shifting a second filter (with the same initial FWHM as in the first filter).
The resulting FWHM will remains the same but transmission will significantly decrease. The more shift, the more tnansmission loss.

2. Bloking filter will not help as the problem is in the wide skirt of the main filter. The only way out is to DS this filter. Then it will have fantastic performance if it will be properly DS-stacked.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:12 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:52 pm
Sorry Valery, you are 100% wrong. I tried to be nice to you, I tried to show you how this works, I tried to explain how its never going to work without tilting the filter. Just go do your own thing and stay away.

PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO INFLUENCE SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH.

QUIT ARGUING WITH THE REALITY OF THIS. THIS INFORMATION IS DIRECTLY FROM THE CHROMA SPECTROMETER.

IF YOU DONT WANT TO BELIEVE IT THEN JUST QUIT POSTING.

chroma 393.37 tilted 4 degrees.jpg

I wish you a luck, Apollo, believe me.

BTW. Skybender is the device which is NECESSARY for such experiments. I would gladly use it with my PST CaK filters. This your development is a very useful for all amateurs who doing same things as Bob and Mark T.

Too bad I haven't SkyBender last summer during my experiments with the CaK.


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Last edited by Valery on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narrowest 393.37 ever by Apollo Lasky

Post by Bob Yoesle » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:38 am

Unfortunately I can no longer rely on Bob Yoesle to correctly use this filter if he is not going to install it in the Skybender.
I plan to do just that in the coming week or so. I will have the Baader Blue CCD filter, KG3, Badder K line, followed by the CT393.34 0.1 correctly oriented in my Skybender, followed by filters to knock down the brightness. I'm not so much interested in the f25 with a barlow, and a collimator system is frankly also a no go as one is not required for the CaK filters form Coronado or Lunt, but I will try f 25 it if the seeing allows. Weather is increasingly becoming an issue here in the Pacific Northwest.

I work full-time in a stressful career (I'm a paramedic) -- and this is what having a bad day means for me:
KIMA.jpg
KIMA.jpg (132.76 KiB) Viewed 1122 times
At times means I have to take a break from the rest of the world, so a little patience would be appreciated... but I will get to it.

Just getting off my second 48 hour shift in 5 days...
IMGP4378.JPG
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Re: Narrowest 393.37 ever by Apollo Lasky

Post by MalVeauX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:22 pm

Very interesting! Limb proms are my favorite thing to image, so this is looking great for CaK proms!

Very best,

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