SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
- Bob Yoesle
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SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Over the past few months I've been able to acquire some early 2000's era Coronado SolarMax telescopes to compliment my existing DS Ha and CaK filter systems, including a SM90 H alpha telescope. These pre-Meade etalons are superb performers. For this particular SM90 scope I'm anticipating adding a Feathertouch focuser, as my other recent acquisition is a pair of SolarMax 70 mm CaK telescopes, one of which is also Feathertouch equipped and a definite improvement over the standard helical focuser:
The SM70 CaK telescopes are wonderful instruments. Like their H alpha counterparts, the original ITF's are shot, but these can be replaced for imaging by the Baader K line filter (a KG3 and additional brightness filtering would possibly make it "safe" for visual use). And since the Baader K line is double stacked, an option could be to use a single filter for even better transmission about a 15% improvement, which I hope to try out relatively soon.
But even with the stock DS K line filter, image brightness is tremendous. The single stacked CaK image seen below required a 0.135 ms exposure with my cooled PGR Chameleon:
These CaK telescopes employ a larger version (~ 32 mm) of the 25 mm PST CaK yellow "No. 1" blocking filter set between a collimator and refocusing lens.
As can be seen above, this collimated light path results in excellent performance - and to me appears to give them the performance of my DIY CaK PST DS filter system at f9. So this begged the question of what would it look like if I doubled-stacked this telescope with one of my smaller PST CaK blocking filters attached to the camera nosepiece...
Here's the 0.265 ms exposure result:
The resulting theoretical bandpass would be 1.42 A, but given the second filter is not in the collimated position, it would likely be somewhere around 1.6+ A. This scope, double or triple stacked and used with a camera with smaller pixels, would seem to make an ideal full-disc imaging system.
In discussing these CaK filters, Mark Wagner at Solar Spectrum asked me to send him one of my PST CaK blocking filters to measure on his spectrometer, and he informs me he suspects the filter is hard-coated, has the FWHM measurement of the specified 2.2 A, and appears to have a CaK peak similar to a single cavity filter with a typical symmetric profile at Tmax of about 40% or so. If so, this would likely show a Lorentzian profile like shown here:
I hopefully will be able to get a graphical print-out and will post it if and when possible. The hard-coated nature of the filter may be possibly supported by Brian Stephens at Lunt telling me these 32 mm filters would cost over $1600 each when bought in lots of 100. He also told me this high cost and relatively low demand is one of the reasons Lunt no longer offers a B3400 CaK filter...
Given their high transmission, I hope to be doing additional experimenting with some multiple PST CaK blocking filters in tilters to see what triple and perhaps quad stacking might achieve to hopefully get to the Holy Grail FWHM below 1.0 A, and where hopefully disc filaments become readily apparent. My immediate plan is to re-space a Celestron C6-R to 3.2 mm for CaK and use one of the 70 mm ERF's internally with the collimator based 32 mm CaK blocking filter for high-resolution work (SSM needed here), and have the ability to double or triple stack this if it works out. One of my ED100/900's will also be re-spaced to 1.6 mm for CaK for when the seeing doesn't allow for the C6-R to be used.
The final frontier belongs to real etalons, which I'm trying to talk Mark into making at less than a 1.0 A FWHM. Brian stated at one time Coronado made a SMn quartz based CaK etalon at 0.7 A FWHM.
The SM70 CaK telescopes are wonderful instruments. Like their H alpha counterparts, the original ITF's are shot, but these can be replaced for imaging by the Baader K line filter (a KG3 and additional brightness filtering would possibly make it "safe" for visual use). And since the Baader K line is double stacked, an option could be to use a single filter for even better transmission about a 15% improvement, which I hope to try out relatively soon.
But even with the stock DS K line filter, image brightness is tremendous. The single stacked CaK image seen below required a 0.135 ms exposure with my cooled PGR Chameleon:
These CaK telescopes employ a larger version (~ 32 mm) of the 25 mm PST CaK yellow "No. 1" blocking filter set between a collimator and refocusing lens.
As can be seen above, this collimated light path results in excellent performance - and to me appears to give them the performance of my DIY CaK PST DS filter system at f9. So this begged the question of what would it look like if I doubled-stacked this telescope with one of my smaller PST CaK blocking filters attached to the camera nosepiece...
Here's the 0.265 ms exposure result:
The resulting theoretical bandpass would be 1.42 A, but given the second filter is not in the collimated position, it would likely be somewhere around 1.6+ A. This scope, double or triple stacked and used with a camera with smaller pixels, would seem to make an ideal full-disc imaging system.
In discussing these CaK filters, Mark Wagner at Solar Spectrum asked me to send him one of my PST CaK blocking filters to measure on his spectrometer, and he informs me he suspects the filter is hard-coated, has the FWHM measurement of the specified 2.2 A, and appears to have a CaK peak similar to a single cavity filter with a typical symmetric profile at Tmax of about 40% or so. If so, this would likely show a Lorentzian profile like shown here:
I hopefully will be able to get a graphical print-out and will post it if and when possible. The hard-coated nature of the filter may be possibly supported by Brian Stephens at Lunt telling me these 32 mm filters would cost over $1600 each when bought in lots of 100. He also told me this high cost and relatively low demand is one of the reasons Lunt no longer offers a B3400 CaK filter...
Given their high transmission, I hope to be doing additional experimenting with some multiple PST CaK blocking filters in tilters to see what triple and perhaps quad stacking might achieve to hopefully get to the Holy Grail FWHM below 1.0 A, and where hopefully disc filaments become readily apparent. My immediate plan is to re-space a Celestron C6-R to 3.2 mm for CaK and use one of the 70 mm ERF's internally with the collimator based 32 mm CaK blocking filter for high-resolution work (SSM needed here), and have the ability to double or triple stack this if it works out. One of my ED100/900's will also be re-spaced to 1.6 mm for CaK for when the seeing doesn't allow for the C6-R to be used.
The final frontier belongs to real etalons, which I'm trying to talk Mark into making at less than a 1.0 A FWHM. Brian stated at one time Coronado made a SMn quartz based CaK etalon at 0.7 A FWHM.
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- Merlin66
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
It would be interesting to see how close the CWL is for these filters to the CaK centre.
Tilt tuning to centreline???? Probably not.
Tilt tuning to centreline???? Probably not.
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Very interesting Bob! I always suspected those magic CaK filters were hard coated.
I have a 2.5" Feathertouch on my SM90, I can whole heartedly recommend it...
2020-05-10_09-52-56 by Mark Townley, on Flickr
I have a 2.5" Feathertouch on my SM90, I can whole heartedly recommend it...
2020-05-10_09-52-56 by Mark Townley, on Flickr
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Beautiful just beautiful Never seen a pre Meade in the flesh.
Lunt 60tha
Lunt 50tha with DS
Lunt HW 2' on Skywatcher 120ed esprit / Skywatcher 72ed
Coronado SolarMax 3 70mm SS
TI Dome / EQ8r / solar quest / Atik & Zwo
Lunt 50tha with DS
Lunt HW 2' on Skywatcher 120ed esprit / Skywatcher 72ed
Coronado SolarMax 3 70mm SS
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Hello Bob,
All of this is quite exciting !
In case you've missed it, I measured the FWHM of my Barr and Alluxa Ca K filters with Sol'Ex spectro :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... lters.html
The Sol'Ex is easy to built, and I can only urge you to make one. This is really a precious tool to evaluate Ca K and Ha filters.
For sur, 1-1.5 A is the next frontier for Ca K filters :-)
All of this is quite exciting !
In case you've missed it, I measured the FWHM of my Barr and Alluxa Ca K filters with Sol'Ex spectro :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... lters.html
The Sol'Ex is easy to built, and I can only urge you to make one. This is really a precious tool to evaluate Ca K and Ha filters.
For sur, 1-1.5 A is the next frontier for Ca K filters :-)
Christian Viladrich
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Christian,
Why do the curves for the ALLUXA look so different?
The ALLUXA CWL infers it could be tilt tuned closer to CaK????
Why do the curves for the ALLUXA look so different?
The ALLUXA CWL infers it could be tilt tuned closer to CaK????
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"Imaging Sunlight - using a digital spectroheliograph" - Springer
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Hello ,
For Alluxa, the first figure (with blue light) is the fiter profile, the second figure (with two lines) is the solar spectrum (blue line) and the solar spectrum filtered by the Alluxa filte (red line).
In other words, the transmission of the filter is given by the ratio solar spectrum filtered by Alluxa/ solar spectrum.
The curves there are for normal incidence. When the filter is tilted the profile is moved is to the blue (on Ca K line). I'll post the additional curve when I have some time. I am currently busy with the tests of the Ha filters ...
Christian Viladrich
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- Bob Yoesle
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Hi Ken, I don't have the final results, but I believe Mark stated the filters are pretty close to the CaK center line. However, being rather broad, they can tolerate a bit of tilt for reflection suppression without going significantly off-band.It would be interesting to see how close the CWL is for these filters to the CaK centre.
Tilt tuning to centreline???? Probably not.
I also sent him the ChromaTech 393.4 0.1 filter and it definitely was a bit high and needed some tilt to be on-band, which I had previously discovered.
Yeah, the placement of the filter ahead of the ITF was highly suspicious. Thanks for the Feathertouch feedback Mark!I always suspected those magic CaK filters were hard coated... I have a 2.5" Feathertouch on my SM90, I can whole heartedly recommend it...
Hi Christian, thanks for the Sol'Ex recommendation and filter profile info!
It looks like neither filter CWL is on-band, but that the Alluxa can be tilted to achieve this. It would be great to put the filters in series to see to how the filter transmission curves convolute "in real life" when double stacked (hint hint ;-)For Alluxa, the first figure (with blue light) is the fiter profile, the second figure (with two lines) is the solar spectrum (blue line) and the solar spectrum filtered by the Alluxa filte (red line).
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Yes, I've done this with the Ca K filters and also the Ha filters. But ...there is so much data to process before sharing "official" information on this.Bob Yoesle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:51 pm It would be great to put the filters in series to see to how the filter transmission curves convolute "in real life" when double stacked (hint hint ;-)
Sol'Ex is quite a good tool for this.
Christian Viladrich
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
I do wonder though if the Lunt filters are soft coated as these are behind the ERF/ITF...Bob Yoesle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:51 pmYeah, the placement of the filter ahead of the ITF was highly suspicious.I always suspected those magic CaK filters were hard coated...
Rusty times ahead for all those using Lunt CaKs in f6 light cones????
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Hi Mark,
I think it's hard to say based on the limited information we have available. The Lunt filter appears different in that it has a sandwich construction unlike the Tucson Coronado version:
This might be a way of protecting the soft-coated layers, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a firm conclusion.
The Lunt CaK blocker has the profile of a rather typical dichroic filter:
From what I understand the Coronado CaK blocker may appear similar, but I will have to wait for Mark Wagner to provide a transmission profile to come to any additional understanding.
I think it's hard to say based on the limited information we have available. The Lunt filter appears different in that it has a sandwich construction unlike the Tucson Coronado version:
This might be a way of protecting the soft-coated layers, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a firm conclusion.
The Lunt CaK blocker has the profile of a rather typical dichroic filter:
From what I understand the Coronado CaK blocker may appear similar, but I will have to wait for Mark Wagner to provide a transmission profile to come to any additional understanding.
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Bob,
I got into Ha solar wayyy too late for pre-Meade Coronado unfortunately and I could not have afforded one at that time anyway and I bet now they are pricey hard to get collectors items. Still, I would love to look through one! With their beautiful anodized brass tubes they were certainly attractive scopes. And I wonder why in the heck Meade stopped making the CaK model, especially now that the SMIII could have a module installed on it. Meade Coronado has yet to make a CaK module for it!
Hey, Bob, is that an Edmund RKE 28mm on that SM90? I have two of those!
James
P.S. Mark, is yours a SMI or SMII? It's got the shiny brass tube. It's an early Meade model, right?
I got into Ha solar wayyy too late for pre-Meade Coronado unfortunately and I could not have afforded one at that time anyway and I bet now they are pricey hard to get collectors items. Still, I would love to look through one! With their beautiful anodized brass tubes they were certainly attractive scopes. And I wonder why in the heck Meade stopped making the CaK model, especially now that the SMIII could have a module installed on it. Meade Coronado has yet to make a CaK module for it!
Hey, Bob, is that an Edmund RKE 28mm on that SM90? I have two of those!
James
P.S. Mark, is yours a SMI or SMII? It's got the shiny brass tube. It's an early Meade model, right?
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Hi James,
I think for most of the OEM's CaK is not as high a demand filter system and therefore they don't have the economy of scale production and therefore a narrower profit margin. It unfortunately seems as the narrow-band solar filter market has shifted from a niche specialty for geeks willing to pay a premium for quality to a wider distribution for more affordable "consumer grade" realities, we see less willingness to provide specialized filter systems of outstanding performance. We generally now have more widely available, less expensive, higher profit margin and generally less consistently performing products.
No - that's not an Edmund RKE eyepiece, although I have a couple and find them to be quite nice.
Mark Wagner got back to me with some spectro-scans of the Coronado PST CaK dichroic filter, and the ChomaTech "0.1" nm CaK bandpass filter:
Note the diagrams have differing horizontal and vertical scaling. For all intents and purposes, the hard-coated bandpass filter performed very similarly to the dichroic. The bandpass filter had a bit higher CWL requiring more tilt to come on-band. Mark noted the bandpass filter didn't quite have the FWHM uniformity across the filter as the dichroic. They both had Lorentzian transmission profiles, with the bandpass having a 5% higher transmission peak and a nearly identical FWHM when appropriately tilted on-band.
These confirm what was observed with imaging.
I think for most of the OEM's CaK is not as high a demand filter system and therefore they don't have the economy of scale production and therefore a narrower profit margin. It unfortunately seems as the narrow-band solar filter market has shifted from a niche specialty for geeks willing to pay a premium for quality to a wider distribution for more affordable "consumer grade" realities, we see less willingness to provide specialized filter systems of outstanding performance. We generally now have more widely available, less expensive, higher profit margin and generally less consistently performing products.
No - that's not an Edmund RKE eyepiece, although I have a couple and find them to be quite nice.
Mark Wagner got back to me with some spectro-scans of the Coronado PST CaK dichroic filter, and the ChomaTech "0.1" nm CaK bandpass filter:
Note the diagrams have differing horizontal and vertical scaling. For all intents and purposes, the hard-coated bandpass filter performed very similarly to the dichroic. The bandpass filter had a bit higher CWL requiring more tilt to come on-band. Mark noted the bandpass filter didn't quite have the FWHM uniformity across the filter as the dichroic. They both had Lorentzian transmission profiles, with the bandpass having a 5% higher transmission peak and a nearly identical FWHM when appropriately tilted on-band.
These confirm what was observed with imaging.
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
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- marktownley
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Useful info, thanks Bob and Mark.
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Thanks Bob and Mark for the transmission curves !!
Christian Viladrich
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Editor of "Solar Astronomy"
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
Bob,
With two 28mm RKE eyepieces, you are ready for a binoviewer!
James
With two 28mm RKE eyepieces, you are ready for a binoviewer!
James
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
It's a prototype model for the SMIIDeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:32 am P.S. Mark, is yours a SMI or SMII? It's got the shiny brass tube. It's an early Meade model, right?
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Re: SolarMax 70 CaK Telescopes and Beyond
marktownley wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:41 pmIt's a prototype model for the SMIIDeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:32 am P.S. Mark, is yours a SMI or SMII? It's got the shiny brass tube. It's an early Meade model, right?
I wish they would have kept the shiny anodized tube. The matte gold tube is pretty but it doesn't equal the anodized brass finish of yours. The SMIII series has it though.
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Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
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Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces
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