"New" Quantum page

Use this section to discuss "standard" Baader/Coronado/ Lunt SolarView/ Daystar, etc… filters, cameras and scopes. No mods, just questions/ answers and reviews.
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"New" Quantum page

Post by Ljungmann »

Well, I am trying to write a decent message, but.... http://www.daystarfilters.com/Quantum.shtml :shock:


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by rsfoto »

Ljungmann wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:40 pm Well, I am trying to write a decent message, but.... http://www.daystarfilters.com/Quantum.shtml :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A price increase of 223% on the one I had and never worked 0.4Å ...

I hope it comes with a test sheet ... or will they charge for it too ?

ROFLMAO
Last edited by rsfoto on Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by marktownley »

rsfoto wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:09 pm ROFLMAO
Holy moly! That's what I thought too! :o


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by christian viladrich »

Not sure they will sell any more filter at this price


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Highbury Mark »

Has the cost of mica doubled? Doesn’t seem to be any explanation for a sudden hike of this size.
Perhaps it suggests Daystar is giving up the amateur astronomy market with the Quantum range and just targeting professional institutions, which can pay such inflated prices? Make fewer, better filters with dramatically larger margins, and serve the amateur market with Quarks and Quark spin-off products.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by rsfoto »

Highbury Mark wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:15 pm Has the cost of mica doubled? Doesn’t seem to be any explanation for a sudden hike of this size.
Perhaps it suggests Daystar is giving up the amateur astronomy market with the Quantum range and just targeting professional institutions, which can pay such inflated prices? Make fewer, better filters with dramatically larger margins, and serve the amateur market with Quarks and Quark spin-off products.
From a chat with Jen the week I bought the PE and the Quark she explained that there are only a few good Mica mines and one of the best is in Russia ...

Also that it is quite difficult to get good sheets from the raw slugs or stones or whatever it is called. Lots of trial & error ...

Who knows ...


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Merlin66 »

Whooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll build you a Spectroheliograph (including camera ;) ) for a 50% discount on Daystar pricing.
Bandwidth 0.2A, accurate wavelength selection within 0.06A


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by vkx86 »

rsfoto wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:23 pm From a chat with Jen the week I bought the PE and the Quark she explained that there are only a few good Mica mines and one of the best is in Russia ...

Also that it is quite difficult to get good sheets from the raw slugs or stones or whatever it is called. Lots of trial & error ...
Yup.
Most probably it's Muscovite from Russia, that is used by Daystar & SolarSpectrum.
Given the current situation, the supply to the West is halted, so the price hike is self-explanatory.

Since it's natural material, cleaving and finding good piece should be very laborious and thus expensive - mica itself is cheap.
If synthetic muscovite could be made - we could have superb solid etalons at very good prices.

Edit:
I did more reading on wikipedia and found that reference about mica prices so my "mica itself is cheap" statement above should be corrected:
High-quality mica is not exactly cheap (in 2010 prices):
  • Block muscovite - $130 per kilogram
  • Prices for imported sheet mica also were expected to increase, and good-quality sheet mica remained in short supply. Imported high-quality sheet mica sold for as much as $1,000 to $2,000 per kilogram
Last edited by vkx86 on Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by DeepSolar64 »

We once had Muscovite mines here in the N.C. mountains. Mica is common here. I don't know what happened. Now how good the quality of the mica was or is I do not know.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Highbury Mark »

rsfoto wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:23 pm
Highbury Mark wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:15 pm Has the cost of mica doubled? Doesn’t seem to be any explanation for a sudden hike of this size.
Perhaps it suggests Daystar is giving up the amateur astronomy market with the Quantum range and just targeting professional institutions, which can pay such inflated prices? Make fewer, better filters with dramatically larger margins, and serve the amateur market with Quarks and Quark spin-off products.
From a chat with Jen the week I bought the PE and the Quark she explained that there are only a few good Mica mines and one of the best is in Russia ...

Also that it is quite difficult to get good sheets from the raw slugs or stones or whatever it is called. Lots of trial & error ...

Who knows ...

Very interesting


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by mdwmark »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:33 am We once had Muscovite mines here in the N.C. mountains. Mica is common here. I don't know what happened. Now how good the quality of the mica was or is I do not know.
Yes you did!!! and it was the highest quality. But that was a long time ago. For the US mining, it became not cost efficient. Also the way they mine mica I don't think they would allow it in the US.
As to getting optical quality mica out of Russia. I have never seen any on the market ever!!! And I have been doing this for 40 years.
They keep it for their own industrial needs.
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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I have some nice mica specimens packed away. Our nicest specimens are found in pegmatite ( a very course grained form of granite ) and in schists.

Synthetic mica? I’ll have to look that up. I am surprised it hasn’t been done.

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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Here’s a quick find. Mica has been synthesized.

https://www.miningvalleys.com/synthetic ... ural-mica/


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by DeepSolar64 »

In years past Mica was often used in place of glass in wood and coal burning stoves since it didn't suffer from thermal shock and crack like glass often does. Today much fewer people heat primarily with wood anymore, my dad being an exception, and coal is largely a thing of the past. Even fuel oil and kerosene are in decline. Now it's electric, natural gas and propane.

Here in the NC mountains, philogophite and biotite mice are also found in addition to muscovite. Philogophite is a brownish mica and biotite is usually very dark. Often black.

We all know of those little eyepiece solar glass filters that crack under heat stress making them dangerous to use. Now if those could be made out of mica they would not shatter and should be safe, providing the mica could give the optical quality that glass could and have the UV and IR protective qualities. I am thinking dark biotite mica here instead of muscovite. Hmmm... :idea:

But then the little filters would not be cheap anymore. Optical quality mica is obviously expensive and rare as DayStar has stated.

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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by vkx86 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:38 am Here’s a quick find. Mica has been synthesized.

https://www.miningvalleys.com/synthetic ... ural-mica/
Interesting.

Synthetic Mica Flake
Sizes: >5mm, 1-5mm
Applications: Pearl pigment, Mica paper, Mica tape Insulation


Seems in these sizes it's of no use in solid etalons.
I think one need a piece large enough to cleave sheets at least 20+ mm in diameter (smallest SolarSpectrum etalon is RG-18 IIRC, Quark is 19mm CA), maybe even larger than that to find good area in the cleaved sheet.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by torsinadoc »

Ljungmann wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:40 pm Well, I am trying to write a decent message, but.... http://www.daystarfilters.com/Quantum.shtml :shock:
Insane price increase. All the hassle I had with my Quantum, It would be a hard pass. For that price you could get a LS230 DS stacked scope.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by DeepSolar64 »

And for that price the LS230 I would get.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Bob Yoesle »

My DayStar Quantum PE 0.6 A has gone from $8,050 to $17,990. :o

DayStar Quantum old v new pricing SM.jpg
DayStar Quantum old v new pricing SM.jpg (472.75 KiB) Viewed 2623 times

The SE line has been reduced from a range of specified FWHM's to a "Quark-like" specification of Prominence and Chromosphere.

Mark's offerings now seem like they are the way to go...

This also makes a solid etalon made from fused silica made by Light Machinery, etc., perhaps a more viable alternative to a DayStar PE. No polaroid's required, blockers readily available, and they could be placed in one of Mark's TEC controlled housings. Don't think the cost would exceed the new DayStar PE pricing, especially if the fused silica etalons are purchased in a batch of 2-4.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Rusted »

I can never understand adding the extra noughts on such pricing.
It just makes them look even more unaffordable. :o


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by rsfoto »

It just makes them look even more unaffordable.
Hi,

Just look ? IMHO they are unaffordable at those prices for amateurs ...

For that money I would make a trip around the World and visit those places on my Bucket list ...


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by DeepSolar64 »

rsfoto wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:46 pm
It just makes them look even more unaffordable.
Hi,

Just look ? IMHO they are unaffordable at those prices for amateurs ...

For that money I would make a trip around the World and visit those places on my Bucket list ...

True that!!


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Preparing the next purchase of a Daystar 0.4Å H-alpha filter


:lol: :lol: :lol:

DayStar_World_Cruise.JPG
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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Bob Yoesle »

From a chat with Jen the week I bought the PE and the Quark she explained that there are only a few good Mica mines and one of the best is in Russia ...
Also that it is quite difficult to get good sheets from the raw slugs or stones or whatever it is called. Lots of trial & error ...
Who knows ...
The same applies to Solar Spectrum, but those prices have not doubled...
Has the cost of mica doubled? Doesn’t seem to be any explanation for a sudden hike of this size.
Perhaps it suggests Daystar is giving up the amateur astronomy market with the Quantum range and just targeting professional institutions, which can pay such inflated prices? Make fewer, better filters with dramatically larger margins, and serve the amateur market with Quarks and Quark spin-off products.
If one assumes (arbitrarily) that the pre-price-rise cost for the raw mica of a single QPE cost $500 (prior to cleaving and coating) for a filter that cost $8050, the price rise of the raw mica would have to be the price difference of $9,940 dollars for that same piece of raw mica - which seems unlikely. If the price of the highest quality raw mica ~ $3500/kg = 7 raw QPE etalons/kg in my assumption. Note the price increase would cover about 3kg worth of this highest quality mica.

I tend to think it's more of a marketing decision. Quarks appear to be a much more profitable item at their higher sales volume. Assuming cost is 50% of retail, each Quark generates about $600 in revenue. Taking it as a median price point for the previously priced 0.6 QPE it would be $4025. You would only need to sell 6.7 Quarks for every 1 QPE for the same revenue. My guess is that Quarks are probably sold at a ratio of 100:1 or greater.

It therefore seems highly probable that DayStar has shifted to the more profitable entry-level consumer marketing and production numbers via the Quark and Quantum SE (now also only available in PROM and CHROM versions), and is reserving Quantum PE for institutional users which have much better financial resources. The DayStar website has stated this explicitly for years...

I doubt any actual change has taken place in production methods or etalon quality of the various versions.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by GreatAttractor »

Interestingly, teleskop-express has discounted their Quarks (link): 1406 € → 1176 €.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by rsfoto »

Bob Yoesle wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:52 pm
From a chat with Jen the week I bought the PE and the Quark she explained that there are only a few good Mica mines and one of the best is in Russia ...
Also that it is quite difficult to get good sheets from the raw slugs or stones or whatever it is called. Lots of trial & error ...
Who knows ...
The same applies to Solar Spectrum, but those prices have not doubled...
Has the cost of mica doubled? Doesn’t seem to be any explanation for a sudden hike of this size.
Perhaps it suggests Daystar is giving up the amateur astronomy market with the Quantum range and just targeting professional institutions, which can pay such inflated prices? Make fewer, better filters with dramatically larger margins, and serve the amateur market with Quarks and Quark spin-off products.
If one assumes (arbitrarily) that the pre-price-rise cost for the raw mica of a single QPE cost $500 (prior to cleaving and coating) for a filter that cost $8050, the price rise of the raw mica would have to be the price difference of $9,940 dollars for that same piece of raw mica - which seems unlikely. If the price of the highest quality raw mica ~ $3500/kg = 7 raw QPE etalons/kg in my assumption. Note the price increase would cover about 3kg worth of this highest quality mica.

I tend to think it's more of a marketing decision. Quarks appear to be a much more profitable item at their higher sales volume. Assuming cost is 50% of retail, each Quark generates about $600 in revenue. Taking it as a median price point for the previously priced 0.6 QPE it would be $4025. You would only need to sell 6.7 Quarks for every 1 QPE for the same revenue. My guess is that Quarks are probably sold at a ratio of 100:1 or greater.

It therefore seems highly probable that DayStar has shifted to the more profitable entry-level consumer marketing and production numbers via the Quark and Quantum SE (now also only available in PROM and CHROM versions), and is reserving Quantum PE for institutional users which have much better financial resources. The DayStar website has stated this explicitly for years...

I doubt any actual change has taken place in production methods or etalon quality of the various versions.
Hi Bob,

Interesting analysys but from the chat I had with Jen a few years ago and where she explained me how they produce them I have the feeling they are going somewhere else with their business and that is, A GOOD EDUCATED GUESS FROM MY SIDE, the money where our taxes flow ...

Just a Hint ...

Ehem, ehem, ehem ...

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I know I am wicked ...


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by marktownley »

GreatAttractor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:54 pm Interestingly, teleskop-express has discounted their Quarks (link): 1406 € → 1176 €.
With the price of optical grade mica going up and availability going down it will be interesting how the Quark market will respond. It surprises me prices are going down with the Quarks, maybe this price cut is a pretext to prices going up when the stock Telescope Express goes and new comes in...


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by vkx86 »

marktownley wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:00 am With the price of optical grade mica going up and availability going down it will be interesting how the Quark market will respond. It surprises me prices are going down with the Quarks, maybe this price cut is a pretext to prices going up when the stock Telescope Express goes and new comes in...
Daystar may use different source of lower-grade mica for Quarks, which enables them to get a profitable yields of etalons from it.
Larger and more demanding etalons in Quantums seems totally different story.
Bob Y. assesses that they're switching to clientele with deeper pockets with QPE, interesting how many of those clients are out in the wild?


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Bob Yoesle »

Given the increased cost of the Quantum PE and it's marketing towards institutional entities, the Solar Spectrum RG series seems to be the better choice cost-wise.

Given the QPE pricing, one could incorporate a fused silica solid etalon from Light Machinery, etc. into a TEC controlled housing, and not have to deal with biferingence issues, polaroid's, etc. Made with an FSR of about 6 A, one could then use a Lunt et.al. blocking filter, as was done with the Coronado SMn35 filter system.


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by Dennis »

GreatAttractor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:54 pm Interestingly, teleskop-express has discounted their Quarks (link): 1406 € → 1176 €.
yes.. sounds to me like they have one or two "very good" exemplars that they want to get rid off.. because they are sent back all the time.. how about that theory.. : D
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i dont think prices will stay like that.. once its sold, prices will go back to normal or up.

Baaders new Solardancer 2 might be worth a look though.. but then again.. only 19mm clear apperture : /


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Re: "New" Quantum page

Post by vkx86 »

Bob Yoesle wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:24 pm Given the QPE pricing, one could incorporate a fused silica solid etalon from Light Machinery, etc. into a TEC controlled housing, and not have to deal with biferingence issues, polaroid's, etc. Made with an FSR of about 6 A, one could then use a Lunt et.al. blocking filter, as was done with the Coronado SMn35 filter system.
Very interesting idea.
Talking about some DIY to make a similar one that is owned by Christian V., one of the few copies made IIRC - did you investigated parts needed, maybe? - I know you're into such things ;-)

Assuming one want to do that DIY:
Does going for higher finesse such as finesse 30 vs finesse 6 will improve the quality of etalon? - The price is not much higher.
What's difference in thickness of etalon, IOW between 1.686mm, 3.371mm and 6.743mm?
Where to get TEC housing and controller? - From Solar Spectrum?


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