Krypton line - spectroscopy

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Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by Montana »

Hello, I have a question from an anonymous Solarchatter which I was wondering whether those with a spectrohelioscope could answer.

"The structure for krypton is surprisingly “star” shaped. Element # 36 is supposed to be unreactive- so what does it look like on the sun in narrow band?

Pretty unique to find a great infrared emission line like this that is within reach of all camera sensors; this wavelength is used for night vision on security cameras as well. (calcium has a great one at 854.2nm)

Maybe you can sway one of the guys with a spectrohelioscope to post some images of that line – which I believe is 760nm

If there is something noticeably different, we could all get daystar quarks at this wavelength."



Kind regards
Alexandra


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by p_zetner »

Hi Alexandra.

I’m not aware of any krypton lines in the visible / near infrared part of the solar spectrum. There is a strong potassium line at 7699 angstroms and another at 7665 angstroms. Maybe your anonymous SolarChatter has confused the chemical symbol of potassium (K) with the chemical symbol of krypton (Kr)? I also have no idea what a “star” shaped structure is supposed to mean.

The calcium line at 8542 angstroms is a member of the infrared calcium triplet.
I’ve imaged another member of this triplet at 8498 angstroms.
https://solarchatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29064
It’s a worthwhile target for study.

Cheers.
Peter


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by Montana »

Thanks Peter :)

Alexandra


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by fulvio.mete »

Alexandra:I've never heard about Kripton line in the solar spectrum at 7600 A.Anyway i'm sending you a file from "Solar Spectrum Hires" with the lines in the spectral region from 7600 A to 7700.The region is dominated by ATM O2 lines
Fulvio
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7600.jpg
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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by Montana »

Hi, I think he is assuming that as there is an emission line around 760nm and it coincides with the Fraunhofer A on this chart that there may be an emission within this area. He provided these graphs.
Intensity.png
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Fig 1.png
Fig 1.png (63.71 KiB) Viewed 1314 times
BAS2000.png
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We could do with the references.

"Fraunhofer A- something in there is indeed krypton because we have a direct correlation with the flash spectra of krypton.

The “star shape” is appearance to the electron shell which is depicted in most internet searches- true or not I don’t know but there are enough of them to assume it is star shaped. An 8 pointed star /electron shell."

Alexandra


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by christian viladrich »

The dark absorption line at 760 nm is terrestrial O2. It is also refered to as A Fraunhaufer.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fra ... _283695178


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by christian viladrich »

BTW, here is an interesting spectral atlas made by Christian Buil (including a number of spectral lamps and of course the Sun), from near-UV to 990 nm.

We can have a look at the 760 nm area on page 25.


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by christian viladrich »

There is also this very high resolution Solar Flux Spectrum by Wallace et al/2011:
https://nispdata.nso.edu/ftp/pub/Wallac ... _atlas.pdf

All solar lines are labelled.

I remember having seen an older version in the early 2000s at Sunspot Observatory. It was a pretty large and heavy book.

As said by Peter and Fulvio, it seems there is no Kr line in the 760 nm region (see pages 35-37).


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by Montana »

That is an amazing resource, thanks Christian!

Alexandra


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by christian viladrich »

Sorry, for some reasons, I forgot to give the link to Christian Buil's Spectral Atlas.
Here it is :

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/specinti/ ... _Lamps.pdf


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by p_zetner »

Thanks for the resources, Christian.

I'll add this one which has been my go-to workhorse for solar spectrum analysis. It's easily retrievable from the BASS2000 site and is compiled from 1971 data of Charlotte Moore (NBS) so is a little outdated compared to the Wallace et.al. document you've linked. It does contain Lande g factors for the lines which is useful to evaluate their magnetic sensitivity. I'll have to compare the two atlases to see if there are any changes / discrepancies.

Here is the link:
https://bass2000.obspm.fr/solar_spect.php
Here is a screenshot of the linked webpage. I've outlined the appropriate link to the spectral atlas with a green box.
BASS2000.jpg
BASS2000.jpg (236.89 KiB) Viewed 1267 times
To the "anonymous Solarchatter" who has brought up this question of the krypton line:
Fraunhofer A- something in there is indeed krypton because we have a direct correlation with the flash spectra of krypton.
Unfortunately, this is a completely mistaken conclusion: nothing in this correlation indicates that there is necessarily krypton! The Kr flashlamp spectrum you have posted is very coarse and of extremely low spectral resolution as is the solar spectrum you've posted in which the Fraunhofer A line is identified. In reality, the solar Fraunhofer spectrum is known to contain thousands of lines which have taken decades to identify through the acquisition and analysis of very high resolution spectra (like those in the Wallace and BASS2000 references) along with supporting laboratory studies and solar atmospheric modelling studies. Within one of the peaks in your flashlamp spectrum there will lie on the order of hundreds of solar spectral lines. To claim that any of these lines must belong to krypton is absolutely wrong. For example, if I were to do a detailed comparison of your Kr flashlamp spectrum with, say, the Ar and Ne gas discharge spectra in Christian Buil's document I would find a number of Ar and Ne lines correlating to features in the flashlamp spectrum. Using your logic, I would state that there is krypton present in these Ar and Ne spectra. Assuming good purity of the gas discharge tubes, there isn't! To make the claim of a spectral line belonging to a specific transition of a specific atom requires precise matching of a laboratory spectrum, taken at the highest possible resolution, with a high resolution solar spectrum. Even if a laboratory and solar line overlap, sometimes supporting calculations are required to confirm the match. A crude comparison of a low resolution flashlamp spectrum with a very coarse solar spectrum just doesn't "cut it"! As mentioned by Christian, the Faunhofer A feature is, in reality, an extremely low resolution picture of the molecular oxygen absorption bands in the Earth's atmosphere. Fulvio's spectrum above shows some of the detail of this feature when observed with higher spectral resolution.
The “star shape” is appearance to the electron shell which is depicted in most internet searches- true or not I don’t know but there are enough of them to assume it is star shaped. An 8 pointed star /electron shell.
As I said above, I fail to understand what this statement is supposed to mean. That's not because I don't understand physics or atomic structure. I do! I have thirty years of experience as a PhD research physicist in atomic, molecular and optical physics. Two of the students I supervised in their PhD programs are now senior staff scientists in a prominent, national astrophysics laboratory. Maybe your "internet search" has revealed some cartoons or schematic diagrams that chemists and teachers sometimes use to help organize electrons in atoms in order to keep track of the shell structure. In actual fact, the electron distribution in noble gas atoms, like Kr, is beautifully spherical! In modern language, the electron charge distribution of these atoms in their ground states is spherically symmetric. So, yes, in the sense that (isolated) stars are generally spherical to a good approximation, the Kr electron shell is "star shaped" - but not an "8 pointed" cartoon star - a real star!

Cheers.
Peter
Last edited by p_zetner on Fri May 06, 2022 1:47 pm, edited 8 times in total.


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by Montana »

OK a response

"There are multiple government registered spectral lines from 758-778nm

This could be an instance where atmospheric oxygen is hindering the imaging ability of the spectrometer- earths orbit? A balloon? Thinner air may be a requirement.

also the data provided by the Wallace publication is from 1989 – there could be updated data’s.

If there is no published media about krypton in the solar atmosphere that means it remains undiscovered- or just unacknowledged.

Krypton should be extremely visible during solarflares via mass ejections – as it would be pulled from the interior photosphere area to the exterior. Chromosphere area. They maybe an Ellerman bomb phenomena hidden in the oxygen absorption.

So now we have proof that -yes it is- The 760nm line of Krypton- Kr I, Kr II, and Kr III are all in transition states here.

Now the difficult part is convincing everyone to look past the O2 shadow, because that’s a very bright line against a very dark shadow.

Hiding in plain sight like the name “Kryptos” suggests?
Krypton spectra.png
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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by p_zetner »

Sorry to have to disagree with you, Alexandra.
I was preparing my response as you posted yours.
Just because there is a fortuitous alignment of laboratory Kr lines with the telluric oxygen band doesn't mean that solar Kr features are hiding there.
See the reasons for my statement in my post.
Peter
Last edited by p_zetner on Thu May 05, 2022 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by Montana »

If this really is a dead end Peter I will end the topic :) I think we were posting together :)

Alexandra


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Re: Krypton line - spectroscopy

Post by p_zetner »

Have a nice day!


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