Camera for Lunt 80MT
- BGazing
- Ohhhhhh My!
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:53 pm
- Has thanked: 289 times
- Been thanked: 353 times
Camera for Lunt 80MT
I would very much appreciate advice on my first solar camera purchase.
I played with friend's 120 but now it has to go back as it is his guiding camera. I would like to have a camera to pop it in occasionally when there is something interesting on the menu, and been looking at what is available. As I am a complete newbie, please help.
The first realization is that, unless you are close to critical sampling, you are throwing aperture - to a completely visual guy this is not obvious.
There seem to be no cameras that would allow that, and those that would get me relatively close at f/7 (like ASI 178) seem to create some artifacts.
Then I looked at 174 and started realizing why so many use it - very fast fps, big sensor (could get even full disk), and the two would probably offset the need to bump it up with a 3x barlow. I played in that CCD viewer and it seems like even at critical sampling it is not that much smaller than 120 in unbarlowed mode.
It seems that every other ASI camera one drawback or another.
Now for Apollo offer, if I am reading specifications correctly, Apollo M (neither mini nor max) is basically ASI 174 with a tilt adapter? And the mini version has a marginally smaller pixel (so I would need PM2.5 to get full res) and is somewhat slower?
Which one I should go for? If I have to use a 3x barlow, any nice ones that have T-coupling (if I understand correctly just plopping camera in will result in more magnification as the sensor is somewhat further down the light path).
Also, what are the other options that I might have missed? ASI 183? 1600?
I played with friend's 120 but now it has to go back as it is his guiding camera. I would like to have a camera to pop it in occasionally when there is something interesting on the menu, and been looking at what is available. As I am a complete newbie, please help.
The first realization is that, unless you are close to critical sampling, you are throwing aperture - to a completely visual guy this is not obvious.
There seem to be no cameras that would allow that, and those that would get me relatively close at f/7 (like ASI 178) seem to create some artifacts.
Then I looked at 174 and started realizing why so many use it - very fast fps, big sensor (could get even full disk), and the two would probably offset the need to bump it up with a 3x barlow. I played in that CCD viewer and it seems like even at critical sampling it is not that much smaller than 120 in unbarlowed mode.
It seems that every other ASI camera one drawback or another.
Now for Apollo offer, if I am reading specifications correctly, Apollo M (neither mini nor max) is basically ASI 174 with a tilt adapter? And the mini version has a marginally smaller pixel (so I would need PM2.5 to get full res) and is somewhat slower?
Which one I should go for? If I have to use a 3x barlow, any nice ones that have T-coupling (if I understand correctly just plopping camera in will result in more magnification as the sensor is somewhat further down the light path).
Also, what are the other options that I might have missed? ASI 183? 1600?
Lunt 80MT DS, 533/1600/462
- Montana
- Librarian
- Posts: 34722
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
- Location: Cheshire, UK
- Has thanked: 17974 times
- Been thanked: 8906 times
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
Not many answers to this
If you watch the Solarchat Zoom meeting we discussed in detail about a camera for the Lunt 80mm. Unless you are Andrew?
Alexandra
If you watch the Solarchat Zoom meeting we discussed in detail about a camera for the Lunt 80mm. Unless you are Andrew?
Alexandra
- marktownley
- Librarian
- Posts: 42545
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
- Location: Brierley Hills, UK
- Has thanked: 20813 times
- Been thanked: 10485 times
- Contact:
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
I think you've answered your own questions with this: 174 will give a full (very undersampled) disk and you will be able to barlow for closeups. 178/183 will do full disks but will (very quickly) oversample if you barlow.
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
- MapleRidge
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 10257
- Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:58 pm
- Location: Cambray, ON Canada
- Has thanked: 64 times
- Been thanked: 4427 times
- Contact:
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
I picked up on this thread trying to find the post that followed the Zoom chat session from Aug 14th.
Andrew had questions about imaging with his LS80T (or modular version...same thing in principal), and I planned to take some sample images using my LS80T and 3 of my ZWO cameras. I did full disk images using the ASI1600MM at prime focus and with my 1.6x barlow, the ASI290MM, and the ASI174MM cameras. The ASI1600 and ASI174 allowed full disks to be fit onto the chip, but the ASI290 required a 2 frame mosaic to get a full disk (wide enough, but only a little more than half the disk fit vertically.
The pic below shows the five configurations that I used: Now, the images look widely variable since they are shown side by side, to scale based on the pixels in the image. If one is only after a simple full disk image, any of the cameras can produce a decent shot. If we use the Solar Spreadsheet, my ASI1600MM with the 1.6x barlow just barely meets the low end of the 'optimal' range of 1.66x-2.48x. The ASI290 is still undersampled, with an ideal magnification of 1.26x-1.89x, and the ASI174 is the most undersampled...ideally 2.55x-3.83x magnification. Sadly, if these magnifications are used with the ASI290/ASI174 chipped cameras, you will need to do mosaics to get a full frame at the 'ideal' sampling. I did the binned ASI174MM just to show a grossly undersampled image.
Each of the individual FD images is shown below...on their own they make a decent full disk image: I think if you only have the choice of one telescope or camera, this is the way to approach it. Now, in my opinion I'd still use the smaller chipped cameras for full disk shots as a way to get the full view and identify the features of the day. I would use the barlowed images to highlight the features in greater detail...but it is still a relatively small aperture, so it's resolution is limited by more than the camera pixel size. I have imaged with the LS80T scope and used the ASI290 or 174 with a 3x barlow and got some nice images from the configuration...especially when the seeing is poor and the larger 130mm scope is affected more.
For me, the 'optimal' configuration is a bit irrelevant for small aperture, short focal length scopes when trying to image a full disk. Once you master getting good images captured and processed, then work through different systems to boost the effective focal length and squeeze more out of the equipment you have.
Just a few thoughts
Brian
Andrew had questions about imaging with his LS80T (or modular version...same thing in principal), and I planned to take some sample images using my LS80T and 3 of my ZWO cameras. I did full disk images using the ASI1600MM at prime focus and with my 1.6x barlow, the ASI290MM, and the ASI174MM cameras. The ASI1600 and ASI174 allowed full disks to be fit onto the chip, but the ASI290 required a 2 frame mosaic to get a full disk (wide enough, but only a little more than half the disk fit vertically.
The pic below shows the five configurations that I used: Now, the images look widely variable since they are shown side by side, to scale based on the pixels in the image. If one is only after a simple full disk image, any of the cameras can produce a decent shot. If we use the Solar Spreadsheet, my ASI1600MM with the 1.6x barlow just barely meets the low end of the 'optimal' range of 1.66x-2.48x. The ASI290 is still undersampled, with an ideal magnification of 1.26x-1.89x, and the ASI174 is the most undersampled...ideally 2.55x-3.83x magnification. Sadly, if these magnifications are used with the ASI290/ASI174 chipped cameras, you will need to do mosaics to get a full frame at the 'ideal' sampling. I did the binned ASI174MM just to show a grossly undersampled image.
Each of the individual FD images is shown below...on their own they make a decent full disk image: I think if you only have the choice of one telescope or camera, this is the way to approach it. Now, in my opinion I'd still use the smaller chipped cameras for full disk shots as a way to get the full view and identify the features of the day. I would use the barlowed images to highlight the features in greater detail...but it is still a relatively small aperture, so it's resolution is limited by more than the camera pixel size. I have imaged with the LS80T scope and used the ASI290 or 174 with a 3x barlow and got some nice images from the configuration...especially when the seeing is poor and the larger 130mm scope is affected more.
For me, the 'optimal' configuration is a bit irrelevant for small aperture, short focal length scopes when trying to image a full disk. Once you master getting good images captured and processed, then work through different systems to boost the effective focal length and squeeze more out of the equipment you have.
Just a few thoughts
Brian
Brian Colville
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
- Montana
- Librarian
- Posts: 34722
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
- Location: Cheshire, UK
- Has thanked: 17974 times
- Been thanked: 8906 times
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
This is a fabulous resource Brian and really helpful for everyone wanting to understand what happens with the different camera chips.
Alexandra
Alexandra
- BGazing
- Ohhhhhh My!
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:53 pm
- Has thanked: 289 times
- Been thanked: 353 times
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
Thank you very much...as there were no answers I PMd Marty and eventually took his advice for 1600mm. It will be fairly easy to do a full disk even barlowed to f/14.
I've been on vacation away from home for a week. Downside is...no solar scope with me.
I've been on vacation away from home for a week. Downside is...no solar scope with me.
Lunt 80MT DS, 533/1600/462
- MapleRidge
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 10257
- Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:58 pm
- Location: Cambray, ON Canada
- Has thanked: 64 times
- Been thanked: 4427 times
- Contact:
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
Thanks Alexandra...The camera selection and 'optimum' setup as discussed in the Zoom session got me working on this. I was hoping that Andrew would see it, though I'm not sure of his user name on here.
BGazing, vacation without solar equipment makes you long to get back under the sun! I usually take a little Coronado 40mm scope (not the PST) when we go south in the winter and have a solar outreach at the resort each morning. My wife and kids look at me like I have two heads , but it is great to have repeat visitors. The 1600 chipped camera is a great for solar and lunar...the un-cooled version has its limits for deep sky, but it is pretty versatile. Enjoy the imaging side of the hobby
Brian
BGazing, vacation without solar equipment makes you long to get back under the sun! I usually take a little Coronado 40mm scope (not the PST) when we go south in the winter and have a solar outreach at the resort each morning. My wife and kids look at me like I have two heads , but it is great to have repeat visitors. The 1600 chipped camera is a great for solar and lunar...the un-cooled version has its limits for deep sky, but it is pretty versatile. Enjoy the imaging side of the hobby
Brian
Brian Colville
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
- Bastelhannes
- Ohhhhhh My!
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:38 am
- Has thanked: 83 times
- Been thanked: 138 times
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
I am going to test IMX545 and IMX334 hopefully next week. These cameras are from Basler, because no "traditional" astro camera manufacturer has these sensors.
The IMX174 is a very fast sensor with quite usable sensor size, but the resolution is - in my honest opinion - nice for screen, but not for prints.
IMX178 and IMX183 are producing a type of pattern. But... Basler told me, that maybe a color sensor with Bayer mask is used in the monochrome cameras. I haven't got the time yet to verify it. (If anyone has the chance: look at the sensor under a microscope. If there are color patterns.. there we go...
IMX533 mono looks promising. But I am still waiting for my test device.
The IMX174 is a very fast sensor with quite usable sensor size, but the resolution is - in my honest opinion - nice for screen, but not for prints.
IMX178 and IMX183 are producing a type of pattern. But... Basler told me, that maybe a color sensor with Bayer mask is used in the monochrome cameras. I haven't got the time yet to verify it. (If anyone has the chance: look at the sensor under a microscope. If there are color patterns.. there we go...
IMX533 mono looks promising. But I am still waiting for my test device.
My greatest fear is being married alive.
- MapleRidge
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 10257
- Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:58 pm
- Location: Cambray, ON Canada
- Has thanked: 64 times
- Been thanked: 4427 times
- Contact:
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
I will interested to see how these chips/cameras perform for you.
I am a bit confused by the comment "that maybe a color sensor with Bayer mask is used in the monochrome cameras". Mono sensors have no Bayer mask, otherwise they would be the colour version of the chip, so I am unclear what they mean. The IMX183 has had reports of a hatch pattern in Ha but it isn't every sensor...but need to beware of the potential issue. Some here use that chip successfully...Arne for example has great images using it.
Brian
I am a bit confused by the comment "that maybe a color sensor with Bayer mask is used in the monochrome cameras". Mono sensors have no Bayer mask, otherwise they would be the colour version of the chip, so I am unclear what they mean. The IMX183 has had reports of a hatch pattern in Ha but it isn't every sensor...but need to beware of the potential issue. Some here use that chip successfully...Arne for example has great images using it.
Brian
Brian Colville
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
- BGazing
- Ohhhhhh My!
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:53 pm
- Has thanked: 289 times
- Been thanked: 353 times
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
Okay, 1600 arrived. I used it with 1.7x amplification factor (instead of 2x) because the seeing was subpar (except for that Highpass full disk shot. I'd say that there are no NRs...but please let me know if you see them. I have a tilt adapter (thougt that the NRs will be inevitable), but now...played with Gamma and they did not show.
Also, please fill free to slam my processing
Also, please fill free to slam my processing
- Attachments
-
- full disc 4 inv.jpg (4.66 MiB) Viewed 1976 times
-
- nobarlow fulldisc.jpg (2.19 MiB) Viewed 1976 times
-
- AR3089.jpg (694.57 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
-
- AR 3092 filament and prom col.jpg (955.68 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
Lunt 80MT DS, 533/1600/462
- Montana
- Librarian
- Posts: 34722
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm
- Location: Cheshire, UK
- Has thanked: 17974 times
- Been thanked: 8906 times
- BGazing
- Ohhhhhh My!
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:53 pm
- Has thanked: 289 times
- Been thanked: 353 times
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
Thank you, Alexandra, coming from you it is a real compliment. I am indeed pleased, but the best bit seems to be that there are no NRs to tilt away. Whoever glued that together in the factory has my warmest gratitude.
Lunt 80MT DS, 533/1600/462
- MapleRidge
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 10257
- Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:58 pm
- Location: Cambray, ON Canada
- Has thanked: 64 times
- Been thanked: 4427 times
- Contact:
Re: Camera for Lunt 80MT
I'm with Alexandra...excellent images !!!
I can't say I see any newtons rings either.
Brian
I can't say I see any newtons rings either.
Brian
Brian Colville
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums
10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM
2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM