Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

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Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Lately I have been using my FSQ 106ED with an ASI 1600MM Pro camera for DSO imaging. Curious as I am I checked how much air comes out of the ribs of the heat dissipator ribs and I was astonished how poor the air flow is.

The original fan blows against the ribs which I think is a mistake They should have been sucking out the air for a better cooling efficiency. That is my guess.

OK, having some 40mm fans laying around I quickly made a holder and added it onto one side of the ribs. Now the flow is vmuch better. In my case the ribs are 47mm wide so I ordered now a 50mm fan and the fan there is 48mm in diameter and I will redesign the holder for the 50mm fan.

I am thinking in adding a second fan for blowing air into the ribs and the existing is sucking air out from the ribs.

This can be used for any camera with heat dissipation ribs like on the ZWO camera and being the body round or square does not matter. Just a question of changing the desing for square cameras.


ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool0.jpg
ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool0.jpg (985.08 KiB) Viewed 2174 times

ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool1.jpg
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Last edited by rsfoto on Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by pupak »

Vibrations from the fans on the camera can be a source of problems with pointing, or deteriorate the quality of the photo. If the temperature control of the chip works, it is better not to add anything.


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by Rusted »

Neat job Rainer. :bow

Before everybody rushes off to try and duplicate your efforts:

The secret to efficient suction is an enclosed system [manifold] between the surfaces to be cooled and the fan.
Fans are very poor at sucking "open" air compared to blowing.
You couldn't have a desk top "suction" fan to keep cool in a heat wave.
While a suction "leaf blower" would have a very short range.
You clearly understand this. Others may not. ;)


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by Rusted »

pupak wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:07 am Vibrations from the fans on the camera can be a source of problems with pointing, or deteriorate the quality of the photo.
If the temperature control of the chip works, it is better not to add anything.
I wonder whether a long, flexible hose between the camera and the fan is the answer?


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by pupak »



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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by marktownley »

Good design there RAiner


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

pupak wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:07 am Vibrations from the fans on the camera can be a source of problems with pointing, or deteriorate the quality of the photo. If the temperature control of the chip works, it is better not to add anything.
Hi,

Thanks and yes I know that. This is a very first test and the fans I use are from WINSINN which are very good. At 530mm focal length and that very heavy and short telescope on a sturdy mount I can live with the ¿ possible ? vibrations ...

Yesterday I had it working for three hours and today I can see the result after analyzing the images. Will let you know the difference between this and the prior sessions.

I checked Noctua fans, the prices are prohibitive and they do not carry a 50mm fans ... Sorry ...

https://www.amazon.com.mx/s?k=noctua+50 ... nb_sb_noss


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

pupak wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:07 am Vibrations from the fans on the camera can be a source of problems with pointing, or deteriorate the quality of the photo. If the temperature control of the chip works, it is better not to add anything.
Hi,
If the temperature control of the chip works ...
Yes it works but it does not reach the delta 45°C promised by ZWO even at an ambient temperature of 18°C when cooling down to -20°C it just reached -19.5°C working at 100% cooling power and so far -20°C to +18°C is a delta of 38°C ...


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by pupak »

For most modern chips, the limit is -10°C sufficient for minimal noise. Lower temperatures are more likely a sign of complications with frostbite.
I don't think that by increasing the air flow you will significantly reduce the temperature of the chip. Double TEC needs a reduction of approx. 4 °C on the hot side to bring the cold down a degree.
Noctua is quality and you pay more for quality.


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

pupak wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:04 pm For most modern chips, the limit is -10°C sufficient for minimal noise. Lower temperatures are more likely a sign of complications with frostbite.
I don't think that by increasing the air flow you will significantly reduce the temperature of the chip. Double TEC needs a reduction of approx. 4 °C on the hot side to bring the cold down a degree.
Noctua is quality and you pay more for quality.
Ah, OK ... Thanks.

Have you a ZWO camera and have you seen how poor the air flow is on the ribs on each side ?

As I have nothing to do I will test this more in order to know more.

OK, Noctua is quality made in Austria. Will write them to see if they send me some samples for testing but they do not have 50mm square fans ...

Thanks again.


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

50mm fans arrived yesterday. NIce vibration free fans from WINSINN.

Still experimenting with the assisted cooling and now I have two fans. One sucking 50mm fan and one blowing 40mm fan which will be substituted by a 50mm blowing fan after the printer finishes at the moment the new support. Will see if that helps more.

Yes the cooling ribs are not centered in these cameras.

I ahve the camera running making a serires of DARK images at -20°C and an ambient temperature of 21°C and the Thermoelectric cooler is working at 79%. Without fans this would not be possible.

It does not cost me anything as I have the printer and the material here, except buying a package of 5 fans for about GBP £ 20.00.

ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool2.jpg
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ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool3.jpg
ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool3.jpg (1.41 MiB) Viewed 2054 times
ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool4.jpg
ASI1600MM_Pro_Cool4.jpg (1.46 MiB) Viewed 2054 times


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Next step is to test the camera without built in fan. It can be taken off as it does only have 2 wires for power.

I have an ASI 071MC Pro and there is where I will test it. I just need to make a cover for the existing fan hole.

ASI071MC_Pro_Cool1.jpg
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ASI071MC_Pro_Cool2.jpg
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by marktownley »

Good work Rainer!


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

marktownley wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:25 am Good work Rainer!
Thanks Mark,

BTW, yesterday I ran the original fan outside the camera. The air flow of that 40mm fan is ridiculous ... It is the Brand Sunon ...


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Yesterday I redesigned the inlet mnaifold so it does fit only the opening of the ribs and the circular shape of the fan.

ASI1600MM_v2_1a.JPG
ASI1600MM_v2_1a.JPG (92.12 KiB) Viewed 1988 times
ASI1600MM_v2_1b.JPG
ASI1600MM_v2_1b.JPG (80.21 KiB) Viewed 1988 times
ASI1600MM_v2_1c.JPG
ASI1600MM_v2_1c.JPG (83.67 KiB) Viewed 1988 times

Running some tests and it looks good. Now I reach troublfree a delta 0f 40°C working the TEC at about 80%.

At the moment the camera is shooting continously a 1 second exposure frame at -20°C and the TEC is at 71% with an ambient temprature of 16.5°C. The air at the outlet side has a temperature of about 18°C.

I took off the original fan and made a cover for the hole.


Inlet side

ASI1600MM_v2_2.jpg
ASI1600MM_v2_2.jpg (1.22 MiB) Viewed 1988 times

Outlet side
ASI1600MM_v2_3.jpg
ASI1600MM_v2_3.jpg (1.22 MiB) Viewed 1988 times

Side view of the Frankencooler
ASI1600MM_v2_4.jpg
ASI1600MM_v2_4.jpg (1005.71 KiB) Viewed 1988 times


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

One more alternative is exchanging the 40mm fan for a 50mm using a manifold like the one below.

¿ Effificiency ? a bit better then the original fan but not as good as the double sided blowing/sucking fan solution.

I ahve been experimenting with my ASI 071MM Pro and with the double blowing/sucking fan solution I achieve a delta between 36°C and 36°C beging the specified delta by ZWO equal to 35°C

I see one disadvantage in the original fan positioning and that is a gap between the cover plate and the fan itself due to the protective grid and the rubber washers they use. So the gap really inhibits a good blowing of the full fan air.

I also saw that after an hour of running the camera the efficiency of the cooling got better. Have no explanation fot that. I was all the time monitoring the ambient temperature.

ASI_50mm_01.jpg
ASI_50mm_01.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 1902 times
ASI_50mm_02.jpg
ASI_50mm_02.jpg (1.12 MiB) Viewed 1902 times
ASI-071MC-Pro_NHSA_AuxCooler_2.jpg
ASI-071MC-Pro_NHSA_AuxCooler_2.jpg (1.34 MiB) Viewed 1900 times
ASI-071MC-Pro_NHSA_AuxCooler_3.jpg
ASI-071MC-Pro_NHSA_AuxCooler_3.jpg (1.37 MiB) Viewed 1900 times


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Here you can see how the fan is placed at the round opening of an ASI camera.

Fan
Rubber washer ( possibly for avoiding vibrations of the fan, which is a ridiculous solution as the fan is solidly ayyached to the camera by the screws. There is no way the fan is allowed to virate without affecting the camera)
Protecting grill
Cover plate

I will make a test with following order

Fan
Cover plate
Protecting grill
Rubber washer = in the waste bin



ASI_Fan_Gap.jpg
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

Sorry for the monologue :mrgreen: . Now I just turned around the 50mm fan in the single maniflod in order it sucks the air thorugh the sibs instead of blowing the onto the ribs and the efficiency is much better, Now the camera reaches with a sucking single 50mm fan the promised delta 35°C.

ASI_50mm_01.jpg
ASI_50mm_01.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 1889 times
ASI_50mm_02.jpg
ASI_50mm_02.jpg (1.12 MiB) Viewed 1889 times
ASI_50mm_03_sucking.jpg
ASI_50mm_03_sucking.jpg (229.22 KiB) Viewed 1889 times
ASI_50mm_03a_sucking.jpg
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

I just installed my temperature logging software

ASI_50mm_04_sucking.jpg
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by marktownley »

Cool build Rainer, i've enjoyed watching it evolve.


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by Radon86 »

Hi Rainer,
Apologies if I did not understand your device. Has it achieved 35 celsius or 35 Kelvin below the ambient air temperature? Is this the sensor temperature? How to use this when the ambient temp is 10 degrees, then your sensor will be minus 25 celsius. Will that cause cold damage and sensor changes?

Magnus


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by Rusted »

I am always surprised at the crude "grill" the fan makers use to keep user's fingers out of the spinning blades.
The flat metal bars must introduce lots of noise and turbulence. Turbulence could cause vibration.
I know they want compactness and simplicity BUT...
The airflow could be much improved by removal of the grill plate. [If easily possible without damage!]
To be replaced by a plate with a clear, round hole.

An inlet "doughnut" venturi mounted on the plate would smooth and increase the airflow.
Anyone with a 3D printer could try this mod. The plate and doughnut could be printed as one unit.

doughtnut fan inlet venturi.jpg
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Radon86 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:04 pm Hi Rainer,
Apologies if I did not understand your device. Has it achieved 35 celsius or 35 Kelvin below the ambient air temperature? Is this the sensor temperature? How to use this when the ambient temp is 10 degrees, then your sensor will be minus 25 celsius. Will that cause cold damage and sensor changes?

Magnus
Hi Magnus,

The camera producer specify delta temperature eg. when y ambient temperature is 20°C then I will be able theoretically br able to cool either -15°C or -25°C and so on ...


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Rusted wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:37 am I am always surprised at the crude "grill" the fan makers use to keep user's fingers out of the spinning blades.
The flat metal bars must introduce lots of noise and turbulence. Turbulence could cause vibration.
I know they want compactness and simplicity BUT...
The airflow could be much improved by removal of the grill plate. [If easily possible without damage!]
To be replaced by a plate with a clear, round hole.

An inlet "doughnut" venturi mounted on the plate would smooth and increase the airflow.
Anyone with a 3D printer could try this mod. The plate and doughnut could be printed as one unit.


doughtnut fan inlet venturi.jpg
Hi Chris,

Thank you. Will think about that and BTW the fans themself have 3 ribs for supporting the motor so that is a nuisance too ?

Your drawing is valid for blowing onto the ribs but when sucking I am the victim of the sharp edges of the cover plate unless I redesign a full round plate with all the holes for the connectors. Maybe worth trying it :mrgreen:

If the fan blows then the air passes over the three ribs which hold the motor, when this fan sucks, then the sucked air passes over the ribs before it gets on the blades.

Anyhow, Y found out in a case of my ASI 290MM COOL that sucking the air through the irbs is much more effective then blowing the air in an angle of 90° onto the base plate of the ribs.

Interesting to see the changes and playing around with this you start to learn a bit as well as the marketing lies of the camera producers :shock:


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Radon86 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:04 pm Hi Rainer,
Apologies if I did not understand your device. Has it achieved 35 celsius or 35 Kelvin below the ambient air temperature? Is this the sensor temperature? How to use this when the ambient temp is 10 degrees, then your sensor will be minus 25 celsius. Will that cause cold damage and sensor changes?

Magnus
Hi Magnus,

Below a screenshot of real life. I am at the moment taking the IC 1396 or also known as Elephant trunk nebula.

The ambient is 19°C and the sensor temperature is set to -15°C which means a delta of 34°C. Without the cooling aid I would be at the moment at about 80% or more TEC power and you can appreciate the TEC is working at 63% only.

The specified delta for this camera is 45°C which is hard to reach with only the factory installed fan.

Forgot to say. The sensor does not get damaged by cooling it. Professional sensor are cooled with liquid nitrogen down to more then -150°C ... Of course of the sensor chamber has too much humidity then it can freeze and that could destroy it but all cameras we use have a desiccant in the chamber for taking up the possible humidity. The camera producer QSI, unfortunately dead (bought by ATIK and then just kept ti sleeping, a good way tog et rid of competition), even filled the sensor chamber with Argon gas which carries much less humidity then air.

ASI1600MM_Pro_1_IC1396.jpg
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by Rusted »

Obsessive-compulsive attention to detail led to all sorts of weird spiders for Newtonian secondary mirrors. :?

Perhaps we can start a small revolution in cooling fan motor support and protective grilling? :lol:

Noise is one of the major issues with cooling fans in all fields of use.

Air turbulence could easily be part of the unwanted noise issue and could cause flutter vibration in imaging applications. :o

Chris :D


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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by rsfoto »

Rusted wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:52 am Obsessive-compulsive attention to detail led to all sorts of weird spiders for Newtonian secondary mirrors. :?

Perhaps we can start a small revolution in cooling fan motor support and protective grilling? :lol:

Noise is one of the major issues with cooling fans in all fields of use.

Air turbulence could easily be part of the unwanted noise issue and could cause flutter vibration in imaging applications. :o

Chris :D


Hi Chris,
Air turbulence could easily be part of the unwanted noise issue and could cause flutter vibration in imaging applications. :o

I checked my images and the stars are still round and do not have a feline eye shape yet ...

About the shape of the spider ... perhaps elongated drop shape like the wings of an airplane but that would be for this ridiculous fan application too much ... :roll:

Look at the price of NOCTUA fans from Austria and simple fans from WINSINN from China ... NOCTUA adds some special supports for vibration reduction and that ¿ is the reason for being 5x more expensive ? ... :lol:


regards Rainer

Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico

North 22° West 101°
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Re: Idea of a Cooling Aid assistance for cameras

Post by solarchat »

posts removed after multiple reports. please keep it nice.

Cloudy Nights or Ice in Space forums are available if you want to get snarky or argue. :)


Stephen W. Ramsden
Atlanta, GA USA
Founder/Director Charlie Bates Solar Astronomy Project
http://www.solarastronomy.org
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