Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

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christian viladrich
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Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by christian viladrich »

Hi,

I've just measured a DayStar PE 0.6 A. The resulting FWHM is 0.95 A :

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... 06A-S.html

Needless to say that the solar images obtained with this filter are consistent with the measured FWHM.

Here is a summary table of measurements done up to now :

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... lters.html

Clear skies !

Christian


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Dennis »

:shock:
nightmare..

How can this even happen in this price category.. can this be a damage from shipping?


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by marktownley »

:shock:


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by hopskipson »

christian viladrich wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:44 pm Hi,

I've just measured a DayStar PE 0.6 A. The resulting FWHM is 0.95 A :

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... 06A-S.html

Needless to say that the solar images obtained with this filter are consistent with the measured FWHM.

Here is a summary table of measurements done up to now :

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... lters.html

Clear skies !

Christian
That doesn’t seem like it is within spec. I’d want my money back!😡 Think of all the customers that don’t have the ability to measure their etalon. At what f-ratio did you test it or does this not apply with how you measure? Do you have any recent images with it?


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by christian viladrich »

Dennis wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:42 pm How can this even happen in this price category.. can this be a damage from shipping?
I am afraid it is not the only one. I know at least two others like this.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by christian viladrich »

hopskipson wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:13 pm That doesn’t seem like it is within spec. I’d want my money back!😡 Think of all the customers that don’t have the ability to measure their etalon. At what f-ratio did you test it or does this not apply with how you measure? Do you have any recent images with it?
You said it all. Not all the customers have the hability to measure their etalon. So it is kind of easy to claim big specs.

The etalon was tested by interferometry, so no f-ratio is involved there. The method is described here :

http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... rview.html

The math are described here :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... edure.html

Usually, I cross check this approach with a spectrometer approach, but I could not do it since it was cloudy, and had the etalon only for a couple of hours.

In any case, images done with this filter are quite consistent with the 0.9 A FWHM.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Dennis »

christian viladrich wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:38 pm
Dennis wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:42 pm How can this even happen in this price category.. can this be a damage from shipping?
I am afraid it is not the only one. I know at least two others like this.
Aha.. seems like they (company) continue to work on their reputation.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by christian viladrich »

To put things in perspective, here are some examples of image obtained with this filter and a Hat8" :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45136795@ ... 605283841/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45136795@ ... 605283841/


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Ljungmann »

Christian, I know you can squeeze details out in the image processing. Do you know how it performs visually? Any details at all on the “surface”? Or just a ball with spots and prominences?


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Dennis »

Yes.. those images show it, despite being colorized. Good detail of prominences and relative low surface contrast. Beautiful but not what he ordered.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by rsfoto »

Hi,

I am glad I got my money back 3 years ago ...


:hamster:


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Bob Yoesle »

My first H alpha filter was a 1976 DayStar 0.7 ATM, and it was superb. Mark Wagner (then at DayStar) replaced the failed blockers around the mid 90's. I really regret having sold it.

If you check the DayStar website, you can see how they now leave a lot of wiggle room in their warranty. The SE (formerly the ATM) criteria have been downgraded significantly and match the Quark specs of +/- 0.5 A variation across the etalon. The PE has an alleged variation of only +/- 0.05 A; ten times better.

DayStar's warranty states you can't expect their filters to perform similarly to other filters, and will not accept observational comparisons to other filter systems as proof of being out of specification. Supposedly if you have a spectroscopic scan they would accept that as verification of out-of-spec performance, and theoretically refund or replace the etalon.

With my first 0.6 QPE - acquired used from the original owner after only two years into the warranty period - it would not get on-band at any temperature setting. I sent it in for repair or replacement, and it was returned with no documentation (supposedly all PE etalons have a test report), but allegedly had a new etalon. The etalon performed no differently, and it had the same sticker/temperature set point. This indicated to me that the etalon was not replaced.

I sent it out for an independent evaluation and spectroscopic scan which showed a FWHM of over 1.0 A due to a significant variation in etalon thickness - wedge. At the 6562.8 setting the actual CWL was 6564 A - and it already had a low on-band "set point" of 40C (104F). That such a $8K (now $18K !) filter was released after extensive "qualification" and testing is dumbfounding.

I wrote DayStar a long and detailed letter outlining these issues backed up by a professional spectroscopic scan which showed it failed to meet PE specs. This time I indeed received a new etalon, with a PE test report. This etalon tested out to have a uniform FWHM of 0.65A.

Had I not literally gone above and beyond, I don't know that I would have ever gotten a within spec QPE etalon from DayStar Filters.

It's very disappointing to hear about these similar issues from others as well.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Ljungmann »

When all 3 old Del Woods filters was replaced with new blocker and trimmer filtres we tried after some advice to let SS do the work with new hard coated filters and strip heater to TEC houses. In the end of the day we did have a lot of trouble with Baader as the dealer in Europe. We even was thinking just to fly to CA but insurance and paperwork was no fun at all. In the end we closed our eyes and sent the filters to Daystar and the Quantum upgrade.
We did get test sheets. My “cheap” ATM filter has a FWHM of 0.66Å and is close to 0.60Å except at the edge of the etalon. The variation across the etalon is 0.16Å. The first 0.5Å Uni filters has a FWHM of 0.53Å, variation across the etalon is 0.07Å and the other has a FWHM of 0.48Å and variation across the etalon is 0.04Å. The last filter was made by Del Woods to John Hicks and Woods always told John it was one of the best.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by christian viladrich »

Bob Yoesle wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:23 pm
DayStar's warranty states you can't expect their filters to perform similarly to other filters, and will not accept observational comparisons to other filter systems as proof of being out of specification. Supposedly if you have a spectroscopic scan they would accept that as verification of out-of-spec performance, and theoretically refund or replace the etalon.
Mind you, DayStar says :
"Only 3 known sources worldwide posess equipment capable of quantitative analysis of sub angstrom spectroscopy outside of the Daystar Filters laboratory".
But they don't list which facilities ;-)

I would say most professional solar observatories have this capabilities. So, much more then three sources :-)


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by marktownley »

christian viladrich wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:55 pm
Bob Yoesle wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:23 pm
DayStar's warranty states you can't expect their filters to perform similarly to other filters, and will not accept observational comparisons to other filter systems as proof of being out of specification. Supposedly if you have a spectroscopic scan they would accept that as verification of out-of-spec performance, and theoretically refund or replace the etalon.
Mind you, DayStar says :
"Only 3 known sources worldwide posess equipment capable of quantitative analysis of sub angstrom spectroscopy outside of the Daystar Filters laboratory".
But they don't list which facilities ;-)

I would say most professional solar observatories have this capabilities. So, much more then three sources :-)
:lol:


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Bob Yoesle »

It's the same nonsense DayStar stated dismissing double stacking etalons.

It revealed either complete ignorance of etalon optical principles and the filter making industry, or was marketing propaganda for fooling the less well informed consumer.

It's buyer beware for either circumstance.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Dennis »

There are companies who just want to sell and make money whatever the reputation turns into and there are some who share the enthusiasm of the consumers about the product. I think we are lucky that there are still those who really put in a lot of efford to make very good gear and also take responsibility if sth is not how it should be.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by EdAstle »

This is troubling. PE 0.6 is $17990.
Daystar have test equipment to separate the wheat from the chaff, then sell the chaff as $18,000 wheat.

If not criminal then it's certainly morally repugnant.

I've waited 3 months for my new Quark to be replaced. My seller had to wait for new stock.
Even before reading this post I'd decided to throw in that Quark towel and spend more on something more "pro".
I've taken a fancy to the Sundancer. I've the budget to spend more but the shelves are empty in this regard.

Of course there is variance in mica but you'd expect the mean to be around some good average.
Daystar would no doubt want me to qualify what "good" means. I mean fit for purpose. That's all I ask.

This was my first ever Ha filter and my first ever view through one.
It's the first time I have been sorely disappointed at a purchase I've made.
4 weeks of emailing back and forth trying everything under the sun to remedy.
Finally the seller agreed it was not "good".
quark_chromo1.jpg
quark_chromo1.jpg (44.42 KiB) Viewed 2620 times
Same spot different etalon regions:
quark_chromo2.jpg
quark_chromo2.jpg (9.65 KiB) Viewed 2620 times
quark_chromo3.jpg
quark_chromo3.jpg (13.32 KiB) Viewed 2620 times
No attempt to tune was made here. It made no difference to the artefact.

I don't like to air my dirty laundry in public.
Knowing I could have paid $18k for something more "pro" and still received chaff has truly irked me.

So I'm providing my own non qualitative inadmissible test results in the hope something good comes of it.
For example Daystar improving their quality assurance stages and caring about their reputation, and perhaps even their customers.

Regards,
Ed


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by marktownley »

Sorry to hear this Ed, it's simply not acceptable :(


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by Dennis »

EdAstle wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:22 am This is troubling. PE 0.6 is $17990.
Daystar have test equipment to separate the wheat from the chaff, then sell the chaff as $18,000 wheat.

If not criminal then it's certainly morally repugnant.

I've waited 3 months for my new Quark to be replaced. My seller had to wait for new stock.
Even before reading this post I'd decided to throw in that Quark towel and spend more on something more "pro".
I've taken a fancy to the Sundancer. I've the budget to spend more but the shelves are empty in this regard.

Of course there is variance in mica but you'd expect the mean to be around some good average.
Daystar would no doubt want me to qualify what "good" means. I mean fit for purpose. That's all I ask.

This was my first ever Ha filter and my first ever view through one.
It's the first time I have been sorely disappointed at a purchase I've made.
4 weeks of emailing back and forth trying everything under the sun to remedy.
Finally the seller agreed it was not "good".

quark_chromo1.jpg

Same spot different etalon regions:

quark_chromo2.jpgquark_chromo3.jpg

No attempt to tune was made here. It made no difference to the artefact.

I don't like to air my dirty laundry in public.
Knowing I could have paid $18k for something more "pro" and still received chaff has truly irked me.

So I'm providing my own non qualitative inadmissible test results in the hope something good comes of it.
For example Daystar improving their quality assurance stages and caring about their reputation, and perhaps even their customers.

Regards,
Ed

My first Quark looked much worse then yours : )

Lets just move on to Solarspectrum and call it a day.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by hopskipson »

I guess I was lucky. My Quark was a good example, it was my introduction to H-alpha observing and imaging. Having a 102mm refractor made it possible to get really good images and views without spending much money. I was surprised to find that a lot of people had bad experiences. When I wanted to move up to a more “professional” I checked Daystar but I couldn’t afford anything but a 0.9A SE. Someone suggested Solar Spectrum. I tried to contact Mark but didn’t receive a response for 5 weeks. By that time I had already ordered a RG-18 0.3A from Alpine Astronomical for a little more than the Daystar SE. The SS is very narrow, close to 0.25A and is pretty uniform. I did have a small issue with a dark patch and sent it back to SS. Mark went over it and found a small thick spot in the crystal unfortunately he couldn’t fix it because of a broken pump on his equipment. He did change the oven/cooler and sent it back. I’m not sure if I’ll send it back just because of the time, maybe when the sun settles down again. For the money I paid I’m completely satisfied with the quality and customer service I received. If I paid $18K for a 0.6 PE and found out it wasn’t close to spec I would be asking for my money back and if not satisfied I would be thinking about a lawsuit. This is beyond poor business practice and more like fraud.


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by EdAstle »

In UK there's no Solar Spectrum items on the shelves ready to go.
I've been told not to expect a Sundancer before March 2024.
I've a budget of £5k and can't spend it for love nor money.

solarscope.co.uk is closer to home.
But I'd need to buy a 3D printer to make a rear DS cell and that's more cost / time lost.

So I think Ha will pass me by on this solar cycle.
I'll be 68 on the next one :D


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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by marktownley »

EdAstle wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:16 pm So I think Ha will pass me by on this solar cycle.
I'll be 68 on the next one :D
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Re: Measurement of a DayStar PE 0.6 A

Post by hopskipson »

EdAstle wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:16 pm In UK there's no Solar Spectrum items on the shelves ready to go.
I've been told not to expect a Sundancer before March 2024.
I've a budget of £5k and can't spend it for love nor money.

solarscope.co.uk is closer to home.
But I'd need to buy a 3D printer to make a rear DS cell and that's more cost / time lost.

So I think Ha will pass me by on this solar cycle.
I'll be 68 on the next one :D
you think 68 is a problem with doing solar? Besides that even during the minimum there is always something happening in Ha.

Try contacting Mark at SS directly to get an idea of his production timeline. He frequently posts here. Have you tried the used market?


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