Imaging Cameras

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Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

While I like my DMK41, I have been wondering about the relative merits (for solar imaging) of the DMK 41 (or 51) vs. the Flea3 3.2 MP Mono. One of the features I am looking for is resolution - Flea3 seems to be the better for that but I'm not sure if it is that much better. I can read the specs but I wanted to get some first hand experience and user preferences. I have an LS80THa PT DSII scope. Also, what other mono cameras out there (in the same general price range) do well with solar? What about firewire vs USB 3.0?

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Robert

What are the pixel sizes of the CCD's, the fps they record and the price as well as the size of the chip?

We should make a sort of simple chart and we then see in very short time in which direction you should move


[table]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]


above is a table created with the table button, but I do not know how to fill it with informations :blush:


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

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earl

Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by earl »

I asked a similar question here last month with very little reply so I did some searching and came across this thread.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/ ... in/5249178


might help you.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

Thanks, Earl. I read through the CN thread and then found an April 2012 thread on this forum. I guess I am boiling it down to the slight upgrade in pixels with the DMK 51 ($1000 USD) vs. the GrassHopper Express 2.8mp 26fps firewire camera (Sony 674 chip) which sounds good although expensive ($1995 USD). My next question concerns the drawbacks or advantages of firewire vs USB.

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
earl

Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by earl »

If you referring to USB3 vs Firewire than USB3, IMHO, is a better choice due to higher transfer speed. Just make sure your computer is USB3 compatible. Firewire on the other hand is built into more devices right now than USB3 making it more likely you have it on your existing laptop or desktop computer.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

How is firewire vs USB 2.0? I am considering the Grasshopper which is CCD (as opposed to CMOS) but is firewire. I am familiar with USB 2.0 so can relate to a comparison with firewire.

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Robert

it is of advantage to look also into GIGE CCD's like the Basler Ace and Scout


Only stardust in the wind, some fine and some less fine scopes, filters and adapters as well. Switzerland 47 N, 9 E, in the heart of EUROPE :)

from 7 am - 7 pm http://www.nanosys.ch

from 7.01 pm - 6.59 am http://www.wastronomiko.com some times vice versa ;)
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by JimLafferty »

Make sure you arent confusing "resolution" with chip size/number of pixels. If two cameras have the same size pixels ie the dmk 41 and dmk 51, their power to resolve detail with the same scope is going to be the same. The difference is in the chip size which will allow you to image more "real estate", and in the example above, at the expense of fps. There are a lot of variables to consider when choosing a camera, and, as in nighttime imaging, there is no "one size fits all" solution for all the kinds of solar imaging you can do. You also have to consider what kind of image capture software you are looking to use with your camera. IC Capture that comes with the DMK's is very solid and is made for solar/planetary imaging--some of the other cameras may not have such a good capture option because their primary reason for being may or may not be for capturing an image with a telescope. Lots of good cameras out there, but everytime I went out looking for a better option than my dmk 41 I just havent been able to find it yet. I know one is coming, the technologies are getting better all the time--just gotta wait. lol.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

Thanks Jim. I think you hit the nail on the head. What I am looking for is the ideal upgrade from my DMK 41 - if there currently is one. So far (and I have not looked in great detail), the closest thing I found was the GrassHopper Express 2.8mp firewire camera (Sony 674 CCD) which boasts 1932 x 1452 at 26 FPS. Sounds good but I haven't heard from anyone who has experience with it - especially in the solar realm. Plus, I am not sure what (if any) the firewire limitations are (vs USB) - at my observatory, my computer is about 20 wire feet from my scope and camera. For that, I use powered USB extenders and they work fine.

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Hi Robert,

Of course you can't trust anything I say because I'm a vendor ;)
(and I also don't have first hand experience with astrophotography, although I do with Point Grey cameras).

Here are a few comments
- 1394B (9-pin firewire - the fast one) is 2x faster than USB2. USB3 obviously rocks, it is 10x faser than USB2
- Firewire and USB (2 and 3) are probably going to have similar problems with cable length
- GigE is another option and runs at similar speeds to 1394B
- an advantage of GigE is that it can have long cable runs, but the disadvantage is you need to provide power separately and it can be a bit more finicky to set up
- I have heard through Cloudy Nights that at least one astrophotographer has successfully used GigE to USB3 converter to connect his GigE camera to a USB3 port (as most PCs don't have multiple network ports, this is handy)

If you can wait until next year there are some interesting options from Point Grey:
http://grasshopper3.ptgrey.com/USB3/Grasshopper3
http://www.ptgrey.com/products/flea3_gi ... camera.asp

The Grasshopper3 is a new line of USB3 models and will include some high end CCDs. You'll have to contact [email protected] for pricing and availability, but the ICX674 should be similarly priced to the Grasshopper Express, but you get USB3 rather than Firewire. Also, the ICX687 model maybe a good option because it will definitely be cheaper, and it is an excellent chip with great sensitivity, even though the pixels are small than the ICX674. However, the optical format is 1/1.8" rather than 2/3", which will affect your field of view with the same scope.

The Flea3 GigE line will be adding an ICX687 model. Flea3's are cheaper than Grasshoppers, and for your situation GigE might be a good solution, as the advantage with GigE is long cable runs. We sell Firewire cables up to 30' long, although the standard says you should only use a 15' cable. (You can also use repeaters like your USB2 system). We currently only sell 10' USB3 cables and are still working on qualifying longer cables or repeater systems. (USB3 is still pretty new.)

Anyway, I hope this helps and gives you some food for thought.

Don (at Point Grey)


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

Thanks! Great information, Don. I am beginning to think Point Grey is the way to go. Since I am in no big rush, I can wait for the newer models. Also, I will probably want to talk to you and others more about the merits of the Flea vs. the Grasshopper and GigE vs. USB3. Also, the ICX687 vs. the ICX674. I also don't want to sacrifice frame rate. The longer cables (whether it be powered extension USB or GigE) are essential for my situation.

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
Paul Haese

Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by Paul Haese »

Hi there,

I am using the PGR 2.8 camera for solar imaging and only for that.

Some things to know about it.

Great real estate capture with low noise.

However you will need an 800mb 34 adapter card and an SSD for capture. Only then will you be able to capture at 26fps. Otherwise you will need to capture at 15fps and this is not great.

Take a look around my solar mosaic gallery for images taken with the new camera.

http://paulhaese.net/Solar%20Mosaics.html


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

Paul,
I am not real familiar with ethernet, firewire, etc - never really have had to use it. Both of my laptops (Windows 7 - one 32-bit, one 64-bit) have an ethernet plug port. So you are saying that in order to use a camera like the PGR 2.8 (Grasshopper Express, for instance), I will need additional adapters (800mb 34 and SSD) with my laptop? I am not familiar with those adapters. Will they work with my laptops? Also, what about GigE? How does that fit it and would I need a different adapter for that or can it work with my standard ethernet port?

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Robert...

I have used the PGR Grasshopper Express with the ICX674 chip since for the past 4 or 5 months for solar work...white light, Ha, and CaK and it has easily met all my expectations. I met Don at NEAF and he was very helpfull with my questions...good to see him here ;)

I also have the ICX445 chipped Flea2 witch is pretty good too...just a smaller chip so a reduced FOV, but the small pixles provide a nice high res image. I have recently started to use this camera for planetary as it has a good IR respsonse which is a bonus for my IR pass and methane bandpass filters.

Had USB3.0 been available I would have likely opted for it as it would be a more portable interface between computers, but I have a desktop in each of the observatories so adding a Firewire card was an easy way to go. I still have the Lumenera USB2.0 camera to use if I need to have portabel cam with the laptop. The Ethernet connection looks good too...this would be very portable as more computers have GigE capability.

The camera runs at 26FPS on about 3m of cable (2m from computer to hub, then 1m to camera, so long as the exposures are very short, but most exposures still run >20fps. I have a 5m cable in the other observatory and it does not suffer a slow down. There is an option to add power to the Firewire card form the power supply, but I have not done this...seems to get by with the power it pulls off the bus. I was advised to consider adding the power conenction if I were going to connect more than one camera at a time through the hub. I just pulled up a log file and had full frame at 26fps using a 9ms exposure.

If you check my posts, everything form Late July on has been wit the PGR camera, and most with the ICX674. You can also e-mail me if you have any specific questions.

Brian


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

Don,
Would the Grasshopper Express (GX-FW-28S5M-C) be an option for me with a Windows 7 32-bit laptop for capture? Or will I need additional hardware to achieve up to 26fps?

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Robert...

I have that camera on the desktop computer running Win 7 with no probelms. Can you get a laptop to give you Firewire 800 though? They are a rare option in Canada, but maybe more available elsewhere.

Brian


Brian Colville

Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by Paul Haese »

Robert,

to run the camera on a laptop you will need a 34 adapter slot in your laptop so you can use 800mbits a second.

Next you will need a solid state drive either in the ESATA port if you have one or in a spare drive slot.

Without both the camera will not acheive full speed on a laptop. You can order machines with the slot via HP and Dell in their business class machines.

It does not matter if you have a recent machine or not. You cannot run fire wire at 800mbits without the adapter.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by solarchat »

or, you could just use a MacBook or iMac like I do with all my FW800 PGR cameras. :)


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by solarchat »

I have nothing other than MASSIVE experience using these cameras to go by. I cant tell you why but I firmly believe that if you are using a PC then there is no better option available than the DMK51/DMK21 combo for full disks/closeups.

If you are using a Mac then there is no better option than the PGR Grasshopper Exp 5 or 6 MP or the Grasshopper 5 or 6MP cameras. These are what I use at every outreach event.

I am however very impressed with the Opticstar entries for the PC. They are cheaper than the DMKs and have a cooling fan and pretty much deliver the same image as the DMKs. I just dont have any experience with the newer models offered right now. The PL-131M is a great 1280 x 960 camera and I believe it compares identically to the DMK41. I still believe that CCD is way better than CMOS in any application.

The Mac/ ASTRO IIDC combination with a PGR camera cannot be beat in my opinion but unfortunately if you havent already bought ASTRO IIDC's golden key, you cannot get a working copy of it. That was the best software out there for this hobby but the guy went out of business as he was losing his shirt trying to cater to the notoriously cheap amateur astronomy market.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by marktownley »

I am however very impressed with the Opticstar entries for the PC. They are cheaper than the DMKs and have a cooling fan and pretty much deliver the same image as the DMKs. I just dont have any experience with the newer models offered right now. The PL-131M is a great 1280 x 960 camera and I believe it compares identically to the DMK41. I still believe that CCD is way better than CMOS in any application.

I'm really struggling with my Opticstar PL130M in Ha - it's almost as if it captures in less than 8 bits, loads of brightness related banding effects. The bundled software is just poop with it IMHO - i've have been nattering to opticstar via FB and now the holidays are here have a bit more time to play around with things to find a solution. I have a sneaking suspicion its something i'm doing as you've got excellent results with the sister camera Stephen, and Gary Palmer has been getting excellent results too. It's frustrating! :dry:


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by Suncityan »

"...the notoriously cheap amateur astronomy market." - I resemble that....grinnn....

Just joking here.

Thanks for the great thread!


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rray6 »

All of this is great information - thanks. For the time being, I will stick with my trusty DMK41 and keep my options open for when something new shows up on the market (or when I buy a new laptop/computer- MAC?). This thread has opened my eyes about some new things for me. Thanks again.

Damn, it's cloudy again....

Robert


Robert Ray
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself -- "Where the heck is the ceiling???"

www.redshift48.com
Lunt LS80 DSII B1800 f/7
WO 132mm f/7
Celestron 9.5 Edge HD f/10
Stellarvue 80mm f/7 Raptor SVR80ST2
WO Z73ii f/5.9 APO
Lunt CaK B1800 Filter and Baader Herschel Wedge (Photo)
PGR Grasshopper 3.0 (ICX687 - mono)
Player One Apollo M-Max IMX432
ZWO ASI178MM and ZWO ASI174MM with filter wheel
SBIG STT8300M
ZWO ASI2600MC-P
Canon 5D Mark IV and Canon Rebel T7i
AP 1200GTO (Permanent) and iOptron CEM60EC and CEM25EC Mounts
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by etatsolarchat »

I agree the DMK21 and DMK51 is great combo for close up/discs.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donboysail »

Could someone explain the performance difference between the ICX687 vs. ICX674. Especially in light of the new Grasshopper3 cameras that will be released shortly.

Don


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by Merlin66 »

I went for firewire on the DMK41 for the faster rates etc.
One issue for me was getting/ finding suitable powered firewire adaptors.
I use a powered PCMCIA card in the ol' ACER and a similar Xpress firewire card in the DELL.
The 12V power plug/socket needs to be watched, but other than that no issues so far.
(The ol' DMK21 is still on USB so they can be run together....)
Just my 2c


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Could someone explain the performance difference between the ICX687 vs. ICX674. Especially in light of the new Grasshopper3 cameras that will be released shortly.

Don

Hi Don, this is Don from Point Grey ;)

I didn't respond earlier because I was hoping to get more tangible information for you... but still don't have it so I'll just give you the most obvious points.

The sensors have a lot of similarlities... they have about the same sensitivity, the same number of pixels, the same frame rates. The biggest difference between them is physical size (ICX674 is 2/3" optical format, ICX687 is 1/1.8") and the price. The size difference, I understand, can make the difference between a full disk or not. This is where someone who actually knows about astronomy could clarify - I'm a camera guy not an astronomer. But I've heard a lot that people get happy with larger sensors because of this reason. There is also a fairly significant price difference between the sensors (and consequently between the cameras). They don't let me tell people prices, you need to talk to sales for that, but the ICX674 will be about 35% more expensive than the ICX687.

We are pretty excited about the ICX687 at Point Grey. It is a high quality HD CCD sensor that also has a pretty good price point, so we expect it will be the workhorse for our CCD cameras in the next few years.

I hope that helps.

Don


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donboysail »

Don,

Thanks for the info, it is very helpful. The 674 will have a wider field than the 687 using CCDCalc.

Don


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Don...

What scope/focal length are you plannng to use the camera with, and do you want full disk on a single frame?

The ICX674 chipped camera I have gives full disk coverage on the LS80T (560mm focal lenght)..this new 687 chip will have a smaller FOV, but a bit more resolution with the smaller pixels.

Brian


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Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
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Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

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WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donboysail »

Brian,

At the moment I'm using a Lunt White Light Wedge on my 80mm ED 600mm scope. The full disc just barely makes it with the 687 chip. No camera that I've had so far will allow me to to do a full disc with my current setup. So I'm use to adding a focal reducer to acquire a full disc image and I kind of prefer this since I can avoid a barlow for close up detail.

This all maybe for naught depending on the price of these cameras and if they will work reliably with Windows 7. My previous experience with a PG Chameleon was that it wouldn't work with any of my Windows 7 computers but did just fine with WinXP. To PG's credit they worked with me for three weeks to resolve the issue but to no avail.

Don


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Don...

My 674 camera (Grasshopper Express, firewire) runs on a small footprint Acer computer under Win7 with no issues at all. I have been using FireCapture for both solar and planetary...planetary CPU is an old Dell unit on WinXP and it has no issues either.

At 600mm, the 687 will snip the solar poles off (FOV 41'x 30')...so close it's a damn shame it doesn't fit. The ICX674 chip will fit with lots of room with a FOV 50'x 37', wiht a slightly lower resolution.

Brian


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Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rico10 »

Love to buy a Point Grey Don, I'm in Alberta but have to admit I a bit overwhelmed by the selections. Wish there was a way to cut down to the relevant choices. I understand peoples desires for large sensors for full discs but one would thing you could stitch them together in a mosaic if needed. as well there seems to be an issue with 1.25" nosepieces for the unit. I understand these units have whats called a C mount on the front and you will need to procure an adapter from a separate vendor. Be nice to see a suggested list from point grey listed by chip size.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by brianb11213 »

I understand peoples desires for large sensors for full discs but one would thing you could stitch them together in a mosaic if needed.
But you clearly don't understand the issues involved in stitching together mosaics ... the Sun's surface changes so much over a period of a few minutes that alignment can be a problem, changes in transparency and seeing quality can also have major effects and the time required to process large number of videos is a real bind ... even if the clouds keep away (which is pretty unlikely for most of us).

I have experience of attempting both and I'm very strongly of the opinion that large scale mosaics of the solar surface, in hydrogen alpha or calcium K, are far, far more difficult than mosaics of the moon at the same scale with the same camera. And even with the moon, the advance or retreat of the terminator over a 20 minute imaging session can be a big issue.

Oversize sensors of course create issues of their own with field flatness, illumination falloff etc. & very high pixel counts cause issues in alignment / stacking (partly due to file size limitations, partly due to excessive processing time).

Everything is a compromise but IMHO a sensor with a reasonable pixel count (around 2 megapixels) and a reasonable physical size like the DMK51 (Sony ICX274AL 1/1.8" monochrome CCD) is close to optimum for whole disk imaging ... it's just a pity that the frame rate is so low. A much higher frame rate is required for large scale closeups, at the expense of pixel count.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by solarchat »

PGR Grasshopper 5.0MP or 6.0MP seems to be the best one for me to use for full disks.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Rico...

Chhosing a camera can be a bit of a daunting task, and as Brianb pointed out we often have to make trade-offs (or use more than 1 camera).

In order to narrow othe options down, please post a few details about your equipment, computer, and imaging intentions...then we can help to sort out better choices.

For the scope side, what is the scope? A dedicated solar unit like a LS60 or a refractor fitted with an etalon and blockig filter? This forms the base info to work with.

The computer will dictate what type of camera you can interface with...USB2, USB3, Firewire, RAM, Hardrivew capacity/spped also play a factor in maimum frame rates.

With imaging intentions, do you want his res full disks (almost requires mosaics), or hi-res clseup of active regions/proms?. How much time do you want to spend assembling mosaics? How good is your seeing...the more variable, the more the assembled mosaics will lack uniformity across the disk. We can use telecompressors to fit a full disk on some of th ecameras with moderate size chips, and barlows to get more resolution on the days that support hi-res work. The more you can calrify the better the fit can be made.

Personally, I currently use the Grasshopper Expreess camwera with the ICX674 chip (on the larger side). My system is to use it with a shorter focal length refractor to get full disk images in Ha, CaK, and WL. These are not high res, but I never intended them to be. I use them as a starting image to put he features into perspective on the disk. I then switch over to a longer focal length scope to get the hi-res images of the points of interest. The larger chip permits a wide enough FOV to get the larger AR's in a single frame (I try to avoid mosaics...too little time to do them justice). I also bought a Flea2 with the ICX445 chip (nice chip...very good for planertary too) which has small pixels to keep the resolution up on moderate focal lengths but still covers a nice swath of the disk.

There is no one simge answer (part of the reason I have 7 astro-cameras)...but hopefully can narrow the choices down.

One other important factor....do you have a set budget for a camera/cameras? This will play a huge role in the final selection ;)

Brian


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Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

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Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Hi Rico,

Yeah, definitely listen to what Brian, Brian, and Stephen are telling you - much better feedback than I can give because I have no direct experience in astrophotography. (And thanks guys for helping out!)

My only add-on comment is that if a 1/1.8" sensor is a reasonable choice, then the ICX687 will be a good option. You won't find any anecdotal evidence for this yet because it is a new chip and people haven't had a chance to try it, but it should be a better option than the ICX274. Frame rate is almost the same (30 vs 26), resolution is higher, pixels are smaller but more sensitive. The chips that MapleRidge Brian and Stephen are talking about = ICX674 (2/3"), ICX625 (2/3") and ICX694 (1") - are all larger sensors and they are more expensive.

If money is no object (which I don't expect to be the case) then the upcoming ICX814 camera (1" 9MP @ 9fps with the new pixel structure sensitivity) should be a dream camera for this application (http://grasshopper3.ptgrey.com/USB3/Grasshopper3). I know the frame rate isn't that high but on the other hand the problem will shift to trying to save 9MP at 9fps on a laptop anyway. So many trade-offs!

Don


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Don

thank you for that information. Can you lead us to a product with the ICX687 in mono version? Thank's in advance


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by solarchat »

Im still waiting for my ICX814 camera demo Don.. whats up ,man? :)


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donatpointgrey

Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Hi Don

thank you for that information. Can you lead us to a product with the ICX687 in mono version? Thank's in advance


You are allowed to set here links ;-)

Hi Walter,

The only Point Grey camera currently shipping with an ICX687 sensor is the FL3-GE-28S4M-C Flea3 GigE camera.
http://www.ptgrey.com/products/flea3_gi ... camera.asp

It is available through our web store (www.ptgreystore.com) and you can see the price there (you have to register with the site to see prices).

The Grasshopper3 USB3 new camera line is scheduled to release an ICX687 model by the end of March.
http://grasshopper3.ptgrey.com/USB3/Grasshopper3

I hope this helps!

Don


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by donatpointgrey »

Im still waiting for my ICX814 camera demo Don.. whats up ,man? :)

Hey, I haven't even seen one yet!


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rico10 »

Hello Brian. I have a Richview II Double Stack I bought last August, as well as a Explore Scientific ED127 APO on a CGEM. I also have an inexpensive Skywatcher 1206 AZ3. I have a 5.0 Density Kendrick Filter for the ES, and a Mylar that fits the 1206, but the Kendrick will fit that as well. The ED127 has a focal length around 960mm and the 1206 is 120mm at f5 which I kept hoping this may help with full disks due to the short focal length. I also sometimes use an f8 6" Newtonian with a spherical primary thats quite old, but the only solar filter I have left for that is a glass one which has a horrible orange tint . My present camera collection is an Orion Starshoot, a NexImage5 and a Canon T3. I have both 1.25 and 2" nosepieces for the Canon. I can also do some eyepiece projection with a Baader Mark III Zoom and a Baader 31mm Aspheric whereas after you remove the rubber eye guard it exposes a set of threads I bought a convertor for which converts to T3 threads. As for computers I have a Laptop thats less than a year old running windows 7, it has 4 gig of ram and a pair of 2.8 mhz processors. Also I have a 2 year old desktop that runs Vista and It has virtually the same stats as the new laptop 4 gig of ram with a pair of 3.2 mhz processors, but it's a lot faster than the laptop. I own Baaders Continuum, Ca K, and have ordered their Contrast but it's on back order with Canadian Telescopes along with my new ES EP's. As for whether my computers will handle firewire, the laptop will, but the desktop won't, I have no idea about USB 2 & 3 though. I work in the oil patch in Northern Alberta, so I have all kinds of gear, and have zero hesitation to add more - trust me that's an understatement.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by Merlin66 »

http://store.fastmac.com/product_info.p ... cts_id=128
A 6 pin powered Firewire card for the PC???
I use the PCMCIA firewire card (Acer) and the Xpress card (Dell)on the laptops.
Works well.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Rico...

Before I get thinking too deeply here, is the Richview II Doublestack the complete scope, or the etalons to mount on one of the refractors? What aperture is the scope or etalon and what blocking filter to you have. That will help sort out some combos.

I'm surprised the laptop will accept Firewire, but it is available on some. It would be best to confirm the speed...I was looking at laptops a year ago and the only firewire I saw was in a high end Sony (I think), but it was not the high speed 1394b, just the older (and slower) version. If you have a free expansion slot in the desktop you should be able to add a firewire card. Also, if the laptop is fairly new, it should have some USB3 ports...I think they have a blue colour where the USB cable plugs in (and the cable connectionn is blue too).

The laptop is the most portable as far as the computer goes, but if you set up where you can operate the desktop you will benefit from the speed.

Brian


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Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rico10 »

Hello Brian, my mistake your right the laptop is 3 x USB 2.0 . Not 2x Usb and a firewire. The Coronado is the Solarmax II with the BF12 blocking filter, the dual etalons are factory installed and it has doppler shift. My desktop does have one spot left as the other two are used for video and audio. The manual for the laptop says ram can be increased to 8 gig., and is a dual core at 2.4 Ghz that can handle 64 bit technology. As well the desktop could be placed within 20 - 25ft of my observing area


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Rico...

Is the Cornonado the 60mm version of the scope?

Brian


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Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
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Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

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WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by rico10 »

Yes it is Brian, my mistake just noticed I didn't add scope details in my signature, just fixed that.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by swisswalter »

Hi Don

thank you for the links


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by sullij1 »

Hi All,

Late to this party but I will chip in my 2 cents worth anyway. I nave the DMK21 and have had the privilege of using Astrodancos DMK51. I also use the Star shoot auto guider (similar to the Optistar without the cooling) and a PG firefly.

All of the cams are USB 2.0 cuz I can’t afford a lot of fancy Firewire, GigE and USB 3 adapters on my limited budget.

Having said all of that, I have found the DMKs to deliver the sharpest images with the least amount of artifacts after processing. Despite the lower frame rates IMHO the DMKs are the best tool for the solar job.

I agree with Mark T that the CMOS have a tendency to deliver chip pattern artifacts as soon as a person begins to sharpen the image. You end out having to strike the balance between image sharpness and pattern artifacts much sooner than you do with the CCD chips.

Of course the DMK 51 is pricy but still less than its PT Grey brothers. The DMK 51 is on my wish list for when I win the lotto. :)

Just an opinion, Best,

Joe


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by thesmiths »

I don't have anything new to add to this but since it is a kind of poll, I would just add that I have owned and used lots of cameras and for solar system work the two hardest working are the DMK21 and DMK51 (both monochrome and USB2). The DMK21 is mainly used for planetary and the DMK51 mainly used for solar. I'm a believer in simplicity over perfection and IC Capture and USB are just so much simpler to use than the alternatives.

The other very useful thing for solar is a 0.5 low profile focal reducer (which really works at about a 0.67 reducer, I think). With this, a full disk image is possible with the DMK51 even with a fairly long focal length.

High frame rates are not as important in solar compared to planetary -- the sun rotates a lot slower than Jupiter. Also, there's no need to take RGB (which takes about 4 times as long to do as a single wavelength since the filters need to be rotated).

There is also plenty of light (from the sun compared to from planets) so having the highest sensitivity CCD is also not that important, in my view. Once the shutter speed is above 1/250 or 1/500, I don't think it makes that much difference to the imaging quality. But there is certainly a big difference between 1/8 and 1/60 (with planets).


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by solarchat »

I don't know how many folks use both Mac and PC in here but I think about 80,000 + students might say that a PGR camera of any kind on a Mac using ASTRO IIDC is about as simple as it gets. color preview one program to capture, stack and process, never any lockups. It's definitely my favorite.


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Re: Imaging Cameras

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Rico...

Below is my long winded follow-up to the earlier converstion about camera choices and your seelction of hardware.

You have several great options for solar viewing and imaging. You also have some cameras that will give you a good start at imaging...practice will make you a great imager, no matter how much money you throw at it ;) .

Generally, we get better results from mono cameras (especially in the Ha/CaK) because the colour filter matrix on the chip only transmit red or blue through one of the 4 pixels under each Bayer filter pattern. So, with Ha we only get 1 pixel in 4 recording any signal though the red filtered pixel, and only the blue transmits any light from the CaK side of the spectrum. The colour chips also cut the IR/UV and I have found that they likely cut a bit too close for the narrow band filters. That said, you can still work with colour chips and a good friend of mine uses the same NexImage on this Ha scope and gets good results. I have not used the DSLR for solar very much, so I am going to limit how much I say on them. For the higher res images, we need to capture a lot of frames over a short period of time in hopes of catching as many sharp images as we can during good moments of seeing. This is where the video style cameras excel.

I will usually refer to a sensor that suits the job rather than a specific camera as there many camera choices that use the same chips (and I don't work for any of the manufacturers). Once you have narrowed the best chip down, find a camera that has the highest frame rate and interface that you can work with (at least the way I make the choices). I have owned/used cameras from Lumenera/Imaging Source/Point Gray and each company produces good products...just each has their own take on the market (and price point).

Starting off with Ha, the 60mm Richview scope should provide you with an excellent opportunity to do Ha work. Personally, I would fine tune the imaging in single stack mode, then set up the double stack...not sure how easy that is to do. This is my just my personal recommendation...limit the number of factors you have to work with, then try more complex systems once you get the single pass system worked out.

Due to the fact this scope has a short focal length (40mm according to its specs), you will get a full disk on many of the chips used today. Your NexImage will give you full disk in a single frame, with room to spare around the limb for proms...FOV is 48'x36', and the resolution is 1.1"/pixel (very small pixels in this camera). It is colour, but I've seen some good work with similar hardware. You can use a barlow to increase resolution, anywhere from a 2x-3x is a good start.

The other 2 refractors can provide good white light views with the appropriate front mount filters (Baader film is verg good choice). My thinking is the ES127 would do a great job, and the Baader continuum filter produces a very contrast image (I use this with a Herschel wedge ). You can get good full disk WL images with the DSLR (many examples posted here), and the NexImage give less than full disk images, but should have good resolution. You will be just short of full disk with the Celestron camera on the 120mm, f5 scope (poles cropped off, tight on the equatorial axis) and the ES127 would require about 4 frames to cover the disk likely six to have some room around the edge of the frame. A barlow will allow higher res images with either camera or scope combo, but I'd lean on the APO for the white light work.

You also mention the Baader CaK filter which needs to be used with either the Baader solar film (photo density) or a Herschel wedge. This will work the same as the WL imaging setups on the refractors, but The colour sensors may not work well in the nearUV where the CaK band is. I have taken images with the Lunt CaK module on a 4" refractor using the colour Lumenera camera I have...exposures were longer than with he mono camera, but it did work.

In all cases, set the scopes up and try all the filters visually (CaK has very poor visibility to the eye...the younger you are the more likely you will see something), and practice focusing and seeing the features. Then try the cameras...and sort out proper focus, exposures, etc. The you need to practice image processing, mosaicing, etc. No end to the learning curve :lol: .

Now, if you want to get a mono camera to refine the imaging system there are several that warrant a look. The ICX 204 and 274 chips are perhaps the more popular in solar imaging (solar as DMK41, DMK51 series as well as Lumenera SKYnyx 2-1, and multiple PGR versions). The ICX445 based cameras have a smaller FOV, but are high resolution and well suited to grabbing hi res without a lot of extra optics (barlows, or low power ones). The newer lines of sensors work well too...I can personally vouch for the ICX674 chip (I use the Grasshopper Express version). I have to admit I like the look of the new ICX687...high resolution and a large array...should be a winner for hi res solar and lunar work!

I would be waiting to see what is released in USB3 in the near future...new chips and a more widely supported USB3 interface will keep the frame rate up and reduce the number of tradeoffs made.

Again, these are my opinions...others may look at it differently...ask questions and practice

Brian


Brian Colville

Maple Ridge Observatory
Cambray, ON Canada

Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
C14 + Lunt 80ED
Deep Sky Work - ASI294MM Pro+EFW 7x36/Canon 60D (Ha mod), ONAG
Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

2.2m Diameter Dome
iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
Orion EON 130ED, f7 OTA for Day & Night Use
Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
ASI1600MM, ASI432MM, ASI294MM Pro, ASI174MM, ASI462MM
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