Hardware:Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

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JimLafferty

Hardware:Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Folks, this isnt meant to be a review, but rather a few thoughts on my experience so far with this new camera---your mileage may vary...

First Thoughts on my new Pt Grey Grasshopper 3 USB 3 camera

GS3-U3-28S5M-C with the ICX674 Sony chip

When I was in NY speaking on solar imaging at NEAIC, Point Grey handed 30% off coupons to the attendees. They were just releasing their new Grasshopper 3 cameras and so I thought Id take a chance on one with 600 bucks savings from the coupon. I figured if it didn't work for me I could pass the savings onto someone else through Astromart (or other medium).

Im still learning with this camera and there are some definite advantages to it vs my trusty DMK 41, but also some disadvantages (which is why I dont plan giving up my DMK 41 anytime soon).

First the advantages of the Grasshopper 3:

Lower noise--really noticeable improvement when shooting prominences especially.

Bigger chip--I can image the full solar disk (just barely) with my Lunt 100 and not have to use a reducer. This gives me increased resolution over the "DMK41 plus reducer" setup for full disks. It also images more real estate on the surface with my powermate.

Faster frame rate---26fps vs 15fps on the DMK41.

The disadvantages of the grasshopper 3:

The mfg's Flycap software is really hard to use for solar imaging. Very awkward. So far Firecapture software does work with it but it gets finicky at times. No other capture software so far works with this camera (at least not on a Windows based platform). You either get Firecapture to work with it or you deal with Flycap.

It can capture in 16bit but I never use it except in 8 bit. 16 bit files are huge and when I processed them they didn't look any better than the 8bit files from the same camera. They turned out to be more of a waste of processing time and computer resources--this isnt nighttime imaging of faint fuzzies where you need to capture in 16 bit for the dynamic range---with solar imaging, there is less detail to tweak out in terms of stretching the image--- the sun gives us plenty of light, lol. You can capture the prominences easier in one avi with the 16 bit, but your capture settings will still be a compromise as you try to keep the full disk details good. I still recommend two separate avi's if you want to capture max detail in your disk and your prominences, but then thats your call...

USB3 is still new technology for these cameras and depending on your laptop or desktop you may need the optional power cord to pull enough juice for the camera to operate correctly (I sure did). That means you may need power in the field for your camera in addition to your computer (something the DMK 41 doesn't need).

Depending on your laptop/desktop speed you may need to upgrade. My current capture laptop and windows 7/8 wont mess with avi files bigger than 4 gigs so Im limited to abt 1525 total frames on each avi. Your mileage may vary, but something to consider.


Im still learning the best capture settings and feel the camera is capable of excellent imaging with the right settings and better, more stable capture software. I am very happy with the increased resolution on my full disks and the ability to capture larger surface areas with my Powermate.

I intend to keep working with it, but I wouldn't recommend it as a primary camera yet, esp for someone just starting out. A beginner definitely wants the camera to be easy to connect and use, and flycap makes this a bit tough. The lack of any other software that will "for sure" work with it makes it problematic except for more the advanced or adventurous imagers that are willing to "shake and bake" a bit to get things to work.

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

Thanks Jim for the info, my DMK41 is about ready to break so I was hoping for a Grasshopper if I could pluck up the courage. When you say it's not for the beginner I am having second thoughts, I might put my savings towards that PST CaK instead ;)

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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

I can turn a computer on and plug a camera in and that is it for my knowledge, if it doesn't work then I will be clueless.

Alexandra


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

Totally agree Jim! Its only a matter of time before PGR will have no choice but to make software for OUR purpose....or sink in the deep end of the pool! After all.... You find these cameras listed in the "Astrophotography" listing on the site! Therefore...these are intended for us!

Packing a nice bottle of Advil with each purchase would be a nice bonus as well! :hamster:

But I still love the camera.... Faults n all!


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Thanks folks--I dont want anyone to think its a bad camera 'cause it isnt--I think the camera is really capable for doing great images--its just getting it to work with the equipment most of us have (and that dang software, lol). Packing 16 gigs of ram, installing new chipsets or a SS drive may not be in the cards for some and I just wanted to keep everyone aware of what some of the challenges may be. Thaanks to Firecapture's creator Torsten or Id be stuck with only Flycap --- and even then there is no gurantee even that will work for everyone.

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by solarchat »

oh boy...you know I cant leave this one alone. he he I apologize up front for any ruffled feathers but I am irrationally supportive of anyone who supports this outreach program like PGR...:)

Jim, there is no disputing the beauty and high level your images have reached in the community so this isnt an argument as much as just a statement from the other side of the coin. You know I luv ya man but the first thing that struck me from this post was your dismissal of the 16 bit mode with this camera in favor of the more comfortable 8 bit videos. I have to say that this single feature is THE defining reason why these cameras are superior in function to the DMKs. If your going to use the 8 bit mode on a Grasshopper, then you are indeed spending way too much for this camera and will see no benefit. The 16 bit mode will, on the other hand, completely change the way you image and the processing techniques used and also the quality of your end product once you fully investigate and learn its benefits. I have a little experience with the DMK's and the PGR's and in my opinion , as with almost everything in this hobby, the price difference between the DMK51 and the Grasshopper 3 is absolutely commensurate with the end result in image improvement.

When I first bought a PGR camera I too struggled to get it to work on a PC. There was no firecapture at the time so I was stuck with FlyCap and the powered PCMCIA card that I had to add to my laptop to get it to work. After researching how, at the time, the undisputed king of full disk imaging-Alan Friedman-was obtaining his images, I decided to just scrap the PC all together and buy a Mac to do my further imaging using ASTRO IIDC. This is what Alan was using so that is what I was gonna use.

The capture portion of ASTRO IIDC immediately hooked up with the PGR cameras (a Scorpion at the time) and opened up a whole new world of solar imaging to me that was unobtainable with the 8 bit stuff. I was using a fairly inexpensive older iMac with 2 gig ram and a 300g HDD. Nothing fancy but this program worked perfectly and quickly with no headaches.

The trick was abandoning the technique of trying to get a finished looking image in the preview before recording and instead going for a balanced histogram and max exposure without saturation approach. This produced a very washed out, low contrast looking preview image but it was the way to capture the maximum amount of data in the video so I could have immense flexibility in post processing. Prominences and surface features are easily recorded with this high gamma approach in a single pass. When I was trying to get a finished looking image in the preview I was actually removing over half of the usable data from the raw video.

Part II...you know my interest is in outreach and I have to say that NO camera company has come anywhere close to the interest and support of public solar outreach like Point Grey Research has. Has any other company offered 30%-50% off coupons to imagers at NEAF? Has any other camera company actually created an account on here or any other forum to take our questions directly?. PGR even donated 5 Scorpion cameras recently to CBSAP for Jon Wood awards. Im still waiting for any other camera company's box to arrive...lol. We don't generate enough sales to even get an email reply from most companies. Which brings me to the next comment...:)

Reality check... PGR and the Imaging Source sells cameras to industry to monitor machinery and do scientific research. For every 1000 cameras they sell I would venture a guess that they might sell 1 to astronomical imagers. The price is high yes, but what incentive does any company have to R&D a new product aimed at just us when the figures from this very forum show that almost no one will buy it? I offer the ASTRO IIDC story as an example. This software was written and put out by one person who had a passion for astro imaging. It sold for $99. With that price you got usually immediate 24 hour support FROM THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY WROTE IT! Hardly anyone would buy it for whatever reason and the guy went out of business. The best solar imaging capture and stacking program ever written, in my opinion, and the guy cant sell enough at $99 to even stay in business.

This forum is awesome no doubt because of the fervor of the people who love this hobby and I am always humbled at how many people come on here to post their passions. I have to say though that the general post in here is "how can I get world class solar images by spending the least amount of money possible and where can I get everything for free, or how can I modify the cheapest scope/camera on the planet to get results like the most expensive ones"?

While I can certainly understand the DIY urge, you have to admit that it doesn't make our demographic ripe for new investment and R&D of new products...:) There are those that purchase the high end stuff, apparently enough to keep Lunt and Meade in the solar business, but this demand for free software that runs perfectly or for a cheap and awesome H-ALpha scope or 16 bit camera that sells for under $500 is just unrealistic.

I applaud PGR for doing anything to up the appeal of their cameras to this tiny market and I would definitely love to see them or DMK write some code that would allow for simple raw video acquisition and recording from a Mac or a PC but come on man, are there really enough people in this hobby at this time who would purchase a $3000 solar imaging camera with a great software package or even purchase a stand alone capture program for $100? THIS IS ANOTHER REASON WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO DO SOLAR OUTREACH IN THE COMMUNITY! If we can get the hobby to the forefront of astronomy and out of the mold of being a "tiny branch of real astronomy" then we could attract the investment of companies like PGR and The Imaging Source to make a camera with just our interest in mind.

I applaud Jim Lafferty and others for taking the plunge and buying this product like I have and working to make it more appealing to the solar imager. Yes, its got some bugs, but the only way to get a better product is to make our demographic more appealing to manufacturers by losing some of the "cheap at any price" mentality.

Don , the only incentive I can give PGR to writing a new Mac/PC interface is the chance that they may open up a new market in solar imaging as this hobby takes off and spreads to the general public... How about whipping something up by the end of next week...lol


Stephen W. Ramsden
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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

Yes I agree Stephen, however, I'm not after cheap etc. I do have the money (well I'm busy spending the hubby's first pay packet at the moment) but I am computer illiterate and having a broken DMK41 and getting a crappy image is infinitely more important to me that having an expensive camera and no image ;)

Alexandra


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by sullij1 »

Thanks for the information Jim.

Stephen thanks for the post on how to acquire images with the Scorpion. I been tusseling with it this weekend and resigned myself to the idea that I needed more info on how this one works before I comment on it. Is there a post you have somewhere on getting best results in HA or Cak close-up etc. with the PGR. It would be valuable to me right now.

Frame rates seem to bog at times. Somthing I am doing probably. Just don't know what it is yet. I will look to see if I am recording in 8 bit or 16 bit. That might make a difference. :)


Thanks,

Joe


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JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Stephen,
I agree on all your points (cause you are my solar sensei!)--I just know there are varying degrees of experience out there and anyone buying a USB 3 camera like this probably goes into it with the reasonable expectation that when they plug it in to their new laptop with a usb3 port it will work, just like it did with their usb 2 camera. I have no experience with Macs or their related software. The camera is great but the buyer (as of this date) needs to be aware of what they may be in for if they have anything less than the fastest/most state of the art laptop available. Its something to be considered, especially if someone is on a budget.
Alan can jump in here but I remember him making the same point abt 16 bit captures---I believe he said he captures in 8 bit as well (on his 16 bit camera) for some of the same reasons I mentioned above. Im not saying 16 bit is not "better", Im just saying that depending on how and what you want to capture, 16bit may not better for everyone. If you look at solar images today, there is as much variety in processing techniques and tastes that the finished product is often times as much art as science or reporting. Some like inverted solar images (I love them!) some may think thats just manipulation for art thats too far off the "real thing" (whatever that is lol). Some like the proms captured within the same avi, others think they can be captured "better" separately. I guess thats the best thing about our little corner of the asto-imaging hobby. I just want prospective buyers of these higher end ccd video cameras to have eyes wide open when they buy. The capture software is sooo important as well and the buyer also needs to know what their options are going to be when they step up to something new like this.
I will keep imaging with the grasshopper 3, even shooting t 8bit, the lower noise and chip size are still worth the cost to me, but I have gotten SO MANY emails from folks asking if they should get one, and after what seemed to be the hundreth email, lol, I thought I'd just put it out there. If you buy the camera be prepared to possibly having to buy a whole new computer, possibly having to power the camera in the field, and having to deal with the software such as it is. I think the future is likely to be 16 bit solar cameras, faster than lightning, plug and play, with awesome software, that works on readily available ultra-fast machines, but we arent all quite there yet :) I feel bad abt ASTRO II DC --I have no idea why it wasnt successful enough in the market other than it was for a Mac and like it or not, most of us use PC's.
I love that Pt Grey, Imaging Source, Celestron, et. al. are all starting to support our neck of the woods more and more. Thanks to Pt Grey for supporting this forum and Stephen's outreach!
Im not selling the Grasshopper 3, I just want everyone to be as informed as possible

--did I tell you I love you, man?.


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Regarding features alone, I still would have bought it if it were only 8 bit. The lower noise, frame rate, and chip size alone made the camera desirable.

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Cschur »

Jim, this has been a VERY interesting thread to follow. My new computer has a USB3, which goes pretty much unused, and the thought of one these cameras has been on my mind a lot. I can see PGR is a very supportive company as far as helping Stephens outreach efforts, and that must receive the highest commendation. Like any state of the art camera, there will be a "break in period" in which it will be a challenge for the pioneers such as us to find the best way to use a new product. I must thank you Jim for taking the plunge and giving it a shot, that is a very expensive camera and most of us would not have jumped in like you did. Bravo on that! I think we give it a year and the price may come down, or the competition may deiced to try USB3 and we ALL benefit from that.

Thank you Jim for leading the pack. :)

Chris Schur


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JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

LOL-thanks Chris---Im not sure Im a pioneer as much as someone that tends to plunk down large sums on impulse :) Good thing my wife is there (most of the time) to ensure I dont end up in the poor house!

Jim


donatpointgrey

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by donatpointgrey »

Jim et al., thanks for the feedback, we appreciate it.
Stephen, thanks for the vote of confidence.
(I have to run so gotta make this quick but as I said in Rob Bowers thread)...

I'm going to bring up the points in this discussion with product management and support/field applications people and see if we can't come up with some kind of plan to work through issues astrophotographers are having. I'll probably be soliciting more feedback but... yeah, gotta run, stay tuned. I hope to post some updates in a few days.

Thanks,
Don


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

That's awful nice of you Don---we really appreciate having you here!
Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

That's excellent news Don, I want to buy a Grasshopper very soon and I would greatly appreciate some help :bow:

Alexandra


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by eroel »

Jim:
I agree with you and Stephen, I have lived through the efforts made by some companies to introduce their products to the tiny market of astronomical imaging. Many years ago after the webcam boom, many amateur astronomers started to make their programs to control their cameras, one of this guys is Heiko Wilkens, a well known good imager. When I contacted him, I was fighting with the very complicated programs made for industrial use, so his approach to an amateurs view of how an imaging program should be grabbed my attention, so i started beta testing his superb program. Later on, I met Heiko personally and started introducing him to the persons that were representing cameras like the Lumeneras, TIS and later PG.
First came the Lumenera cameras as an add on to the program, then TIS cameras were quickly added to the Lucam-Recorder program, and probably some models of the PG cameras will be added hopefully soon.( at some NEAF forum, I introduced Heiko to a representative of PGR, unfortunately I don´t remember who he was.)
I have tried all the programs furnished for driving all these cameras, but non is par to the Lucam-Recorder. I own 2 Lumeneras, 4 TIS and 1 PGR, all except the Chameleon are supported by L-R, so I have to use Flycap or FireCapture.
Some cameras support 12bit recording, so with L-R one can use the SER format and get a broader dynamic range final image compared to an 8bit one.
Hope that Don knows about Heiko´s program, because I believe it is easiest and the more complete program for driving video cameras like the ones we use for solar imaging.
BTW, I got my Chameleon camera with a discount bonus some time ago, it sure was a pleasure to buy it and a very nice effort of PGR to introduce his cameras, hope it keeps up :thanx: .
My 2 cents on the subject.
Best regards,
Eric.


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Great comments Eric! I did try to buy Heiko's program a couple of years ago but never got a response from Heiko via his website. Then about a year later he contacted me and said the software was still available. By then I was comfortable with what I was using. Im not sure that he has continued to update his software to include pt grey usb 3 cameras. If someone has it and finds out it does, ill be the first to buy! Ive heard great things abt the software with earlier models.


astrodanco

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by astrodanco »

What bothers me about Lucam-Recorder is that it is software license hard locked to an individual camera identified by serial number, not to the user.


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Yeah, we do tend to change cameras--I would hope he would update the licesnse for you, but if he suddenly went out of business, you'd be outta luck...


colmic

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by colmic »

Hi all,

for myself i always shoot in 16 bits mode with my Grasshopper3 (ICX674 too), because i can show proms and surface at the same time. I made some tests on 8 bits mode, i made some tests with more gain and more exposure to show proms, but there's no more details.
In 8 bits mode, you have... 8 bits with one image
In 16 bits mode, you have 10 bits with one image with the ICX674
The rules are: you should take 4 more images to gain 1 bit in dynamic:
4 images to gain 1 bit
16 to gain 2 bits
64 to gain 3 bits
256 to gain 4 bits
etc...

So in 16 bits mode, you take 16x less images than in 8 mode mode to show the same amount of dynamic.

Let's see these images to compare:

30ms exposure, more gain, 8 bits mode:


8ms exposure, no gain, 16 bits mode:


If you look at the proms, there's no more details in the first one.


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

:thumbsup: those are great shots! And a wonderful visual! But what capture program are you using? Ive done everything mentioned and searched the web for all ways to get the cams running, but its just not working out! Alas my flea3 is now in a plastic bag until further notice!
Firecapture is back on my laptop and my dmk51 is back as my main imaging camera! 1000 bucks would have bought my D-erf! Just not pleased!


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

No John. I actually bought a laptop with all the new usb3 and chipset for the sole purpose of running this camera!
It has everything it requires and more.

As I said before... It runs with flycapture but for what we need...that software is useless. Since the cameras are advertised as "astrophotography" cameras! They need to get them working with the software being used by the peopke!

I have sent emails to both the writers of firecapture, and to Point Grey! Not as a member of any club or otherwise.... But as a consumer that chucked $1000 dollars on a camera and expect some effort on their part to fix the issues at hand!

Im sure they will do what they can.... But as I told them.... They are losing huge sales by the troubles our kind are having!

After all. The dmk51 has run in every program I have used it with! Now thats customer satisfaction! As a customer.... I have a say! And a right to say!

Nuff said!


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

I think really the best way to compare 16 bit vs 8 bit is to try to capture the full disk and the proms together in both images. The original point is that when imaging them both together you are having to adjust your capture settings with gamma pushed up pretty high--You will maximize your prom detail so as to pick up the fainter whispies but your disk will be fairly gamma-ed out--You can create a pleasing image but you wont be maximizing the contrast available ont he surface of the disk. I think there are times when the 16 bit can be beneficial and at other times when it won't. You have the same issue when trying to capture both in 8 bit in 1 avi. You will capture more of the proms in 16bit but you will still not be able to maximize the contrast and detail in the disk portion of your shot.

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by solarchat »

I don't agree, but who cares. we all put out pretty good images. I always 16 bit but everyone should do whatever they want.


Stephen W. Ramsden
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RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

I think the frame rate just ups the odds of catching moments of good seeing. That on turn gives you a chance at a cleaner stack.... But thats just 1 Canucks opinion!

See you all at Starfest! Lol :hamster:


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

Yeah Stephen, I agree--I think so much depends on "what" you want to capture and how much (and in what way) you want to process. I noticed that the images that are captured with proms and disk together make for a bit of a washed out disk, but "inverted" they are wonderful to work with.
Everyone have fun:) we are are definitely learning something everyday, and while the "math" doesnt always match the eye, thats ok.


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

After 4 VERY frustrating days trying to deal with the finicky Grasshopper 3 I'll be calling Pt Grey tomorrow again. Out of a total of about 7 hours of imaging time, the camera connected and worked about 20 minutes. Sorry, but if I have to buy another new machine just so it has the right motherboard for this camera, its the camera that is going bye bye. There are too many other products that will be more dependable. My time is too important to play "tech support" and then hope it works the "next time I want to image". Time for a cool brew--maybe things will look better in the morning.....
Sorry--rant is over :)

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by solar »

I really wish I had not read your last Jim. I though you had it sorted.
I just bought a PGR2.8 Firewire from another imager over here. :(


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

Yeah thats a shame indeed! Ive been getting nowhere as I mentioned in a fifferent thread before

Change has got to happen. There is something to be said for dendability and reliability


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

I have the USB3 version, which I still suspect is the issue, firewire probably works great.....

Jim


colmic

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by colmic »

For Alexandra i post here how i proceed with my Grasshopper3 (ICX674), perhaps this may help some users. I have no problem with it, all works well, BUT... some times (very few times) i have a blue screen with restarting of the PC. I don't know if this is due to camera, to software, to driver, or to my USB interface with the mount. I have downloaded the new version of Firecapture and i'll check if the blue screens occur again.

Here is my protocol:
- I bought 3 and 5 meter USB3 cables to PGR, these cables are certified
- Download Flycap 2.5 beta on PGR website => 32 bits version only, NOT 64 BITS VERSION, as mentioned on Firecapture website
- Download Firecapture 2.3 beta 13 (but I used to date version 2.3 beta 08, will test if this version 13 is better)
- Connect the camera to an USB3 port (there is a risk that the usb3 port does not supply enough power on some PCs, mine was ok)
- Make a test with Flycap 2.5 once to see if the camera is running (if yes never touch again to Flycap)
- Launch Firecapture with the camera connected, Firecapture will detect the camera, launch the Flycap 2.5 driver, and start
- You should see an image on the preview window. If not, there is a problem, quit Firecapture, disconnect the camera, reconnect it, launch again Flycap 2.5 to see if you have an image.

=> Firecapture settings:
- tick the 16 bits mode (for myself)
- tick Histogram
- tick Autoguide if you have an USB driver for your mount as me, and just after uncheck it
- tick Flip X if you use a BF or a diagonal
- Record in .SER mode

There are some tips about Firecapture i discovered:
- at starting, the exposure range is not good, it goes to 5ms to 200ms but you see the first range (0.1ms to 30ms). Tick the 5-200ms line and just after tick on the 0.1-30ms line, and all goes ok.
- sometimes the checkboxes Gamma, Exposure, etc.. are ticked, uncheck them.
- sometimes the Grashopper is limited to 9fps in place of 26fps, you can see it on the 'Data' window. Check if the exposure ckeckbox is unchecked, if yes there is a problem with Flycap driver. So quit Firecapture, lauch Flycap, verify the fps, quit flycap and return to Firecapture. For me this problem occured just once on my first tests.

Perhaps I may have forgotten some details, don't hesitate to ask me :)


JimLafferty

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by JimLafferty »

After last night's post above I tried the camera again and now it looks like some kind of hardware failure with the camera--First the right half of the chip got real noisy, then a few minutes later it blacked out. A few minutes after that the whole chip went dark--showing no sensitivity to light at all. It was still reporting 26fps capture, but absolutely no video coming through the preview, and no response to changes in gain, exposure, etc. I called PGR this am and they are having me send the camera back for repair.

There is now an application note (dated july 18, 2013) on their site listing various chipsets, various motherboards, and processor configurations that are a problem for their usb3 cameras.

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by solarchat »

Hey Jim,

Sorry to hear all that.

I have seen at least one 5MP Grasshopper where some of the quadrants became black or extremely shifted. This is what causes the little black line in some peoples images. The camera uses 2 quadrants in the 2.8 or 5MP version and 4 quadrants in the 9.1MP version. These are carefully balanced in preship quality checks but I have seen them become out of balance. Any sort of electrical shock, like unplugging it in the middle of capture or whatever, can cause the quads to become imbalanced.

I also have a Scorpion where the line is out of balance.


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by gabrieli »

Just as an addition to the frame rate drop on startup. I experience the same thing sometimes with both the 2/3" and the 1" version where the frame rates drop to 18 frames/s and 8 frames /s resp. on startup. I solve the problem just by clicking on ROI and then clicking back on full frame. This fools the camera into jumping back up to 26 frames/s and it stays there. I have no idea why this is necessary, but it works.

When I experience a crash requiring a restart, I sometimes have to shut down and reboot, not just a restart.

Michel: When the "blue screen of death" comes up, it lists the ehc (Intel extensible host controller) as a problem.
On my laptop, my USB3 port sometimes becomes unresponsive (to any USB3 device). Then, I have to go into Device Manager and disable and then reinstall the ehc. That works. Why it becomes corrupted: I don't know.

Sometimes I miss that machine called DMK41 that just does its job. Period.


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

Im hoping to get my usb3 flea3 working tomorrow..... But ill start with the"always works" DMK51, then switch over to WL and the flea..... Then....... Well.... Who knows


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by donatpointgrey »

Hi all... the Point Grey lurker chiming in again (I hope there isn't a lynch mob forming! :))

Jim - I'm sorry to hear about your camera! But I see the RMA process is started, so hopefully they can get your camera back to you quickly.

Gabrieli - that Intel EHC issue was just recently fixed. I would recommend you contact [email protected] for the details of how to upgrade your drivers. This was a bug in the Intel driver, but we've worked with them to get it resolved and a fix is out. (It is always gratifying when we can get the Big Boys to fix their problems! :))

Re: Firecapture interactions - I've sent an email to Torsten but he is away on vacation now. What our preferred solution would be is to work with Torsten to smooth out any issues between Firecapture application software and Point Grey underlying software. This would be the best solution for Firecapture users as they could continue to use the software they prefer without having to resort to a simplfied FlyCapture application. Support is also going to install Firecapture here for internal testing so we can be more proactive in identifying any problems.

The troubleshooting process I would recommend is

1 - always let [email protected] know if you are having a problem - we do our best to resolve issues - really!
2 - if you are seeing blue-screen-of-death issues - it is almost always a driver issue - contact [email protected]
3 - if you can't see images in the Point Grey FlyCap application - then it is a Point Grey problem - could be a problem with the hardware, the driver, or the software installation - contact [email protected]
4 - if the camera works in Point Grey FlyCap but doesn't work in 3rd party software - it is a software interaction issue. You can still contact [email protected] as we would like to know if there are incompatibility issues. However, this is also a good time to talk to your 3rd party software provider for ideas.

I appreciate all the community support you guys provide each other, and all the critical feedback.

I hope this helps.
Don


colmic

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by colmic »

For information: today (the sky was overcast so i work as i can!) i made some tests with Firecapture and different drivers from Point Grey.

So what is working well:
- Firecapture 2.3 beta 13 works well with the Grasshopper3 ICX674
- It works well with the new Flycap 2.5 release 4 x86 version (32 bits) but you must install the Flycam.dll from Firecapture website
- Firecapture still doesn't works with the 64bits version of the new Flycap 2.5 release 4

It looks like to be more stable... Need more tests to confirm...


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

OK, so you guys know this was coming ;)

Flycapture works fine, see an image on the screen.

Firecpature won't recognise the camera :(

We followed Michel's hint that we should download the Flycam.dll from the Firecapture website but not where to put it?

We first replaced the Flycam.dll in Firecapture then realised that the vague instructions seem to indicate it should go in an FC folder in Flycapture and replace in there. However, we have an FC1 folder but not an FC folder? in there, there are no drivers called Flycam.dll so it is difficult to replace it as we don't have one to replace? What do we remove from the FC1 folder to replace with this Flycam.dll?

any help would be most welcome.

Kind regards
Alexandra


colmic

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by colmic »

Alex, Flycam.dll must be on:
- Firecapture folder (program file(x86)/Firecapture
- Flycapture2 folder (program file(x86)/Point Grey Research/Flycapture2/bin

This Flycam.dll is downloadable here: http://firecapture.wonderplanets.de/patches/FlyCam.dll

If you don't have flycam.dll on one of these folders, copy it to.
If you have one, replace it by the one here.

Did you install the correct versions of Firecapture and Flycapture i told above?

You have received the Grasshopper?


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

Hi Michel,
We followed your instructions exactly. We have the Firecapture and Flycap you said and placed the dll in both places. It still doesn't work :(

I guess it's not going to work and I'll have to learn Flycapture :(

Alexandra


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

Flycap must be on for the grasshopper to work! But at the telescope really is a frustrating time to play around with pc settings! In order to get the dmk working flycap must be set up correctly or it takes over your entire pc! So to save the session.... You can delete it and get it again later!

Been through this before.

You also need to be running the beta version of firecapture and download the 2.4 beta verion of the flycap which in itself has the .dll you need acopies it automatically! The trick is.... Have your dmk41 plugged in where you have a usb 2 port and plug the grasshopper in a usb3 port. Then run flycap for the first time! Otherwise is disables EVERY unused usb on your computer! Great program ay?


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

Thanks Rob, it's cloudy today (as usual) so we thought we would set it all up as Monday is forecast to be good.

We first loaded Flycapture 2.5 v4x86 (32bit). It had a bit where it said if you load our drivers nothing else will work in your USB3. It didn't give another option so we just said yes and it downloaded the software. We then downloaded Firecapture 2.2, copied the files, then downloaded the Firecapture 2.3 beta and exchanged the file (as instructions).

We then added flycam.dll to the Firecapture folder (replaced the one in the folder).

Then turned on Flycapture and it worked great. We then tried Firecapture and it doesn't get past the start as it says there is no camera there. We then put the flycam.dll in the Flycapture folder, still no joy.

Then tried the DMK41 and it didn't work, so we rolled back the driver to the original (removed the PGR) from the system file and the DMK41 worked again.

The Grasshopper still works in Flycapture after this roll back but still Firecapture does not. We have tried every combination :( so I guess we have a duffer.

I notice that Flycapture only records in Windows movie player avi and not Ser, guess I will have to see how it goes.
Alexandra


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

I know its a real bummer Alexandra.... But it will work! And will work with firecapture! Its just a pain getting there! Today I was able to get my Flea3 capturing at 75 frames per second in firecapture! A month ago I was ready to set it on fire!

You are sooooo close to getting the combo! If you feel strong willed enough to battle the beast! Ill lay out the steps how I beat the beast!

Remove any and all point grey software via uninstall in control panel!
Once done. Plug in your dmk41 and open firecapture with the firecapture start exe. Not the tis short cut.
Your dmk 41 should be working! ( and I mean with the 2.3 Beta version!)
Then turn it off. It now knows the dmk41
Download flycapture 2.4 release 11 for windows must be 32bit
Once you have that. Plug in both cameras before running the flycapture install! This is crucial!
It wont over write the usb port with the dmk41 plugged in!
Go through the set up mode... Then close off and un plug cameras
Reboot laptop and plug in dmk41 and test Firecapture! Then unplug dmk41 and plug in grasshopper to the same port it was in during install process. Dont copy any dll files or other... Just open firecapture by clicking the point grey short cut!

Choose 16 bit in upper left corner to increase frames per seconds while recording!

This got my usb3 running at 75 per second!

Good luck! Well wishes....
May the force be with you! :whistle:


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

Hmmmm just a though..... Update the firmware for your camera if you havent already! Simple process but very important......


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by Montana »

Right, I left the hubby with the cameras and computer and he has got them working. This is what he said he has done:

1. Removed Flycapture and Firecapture.
2. Plugged in the DMK41
3. Loaded Flycapture, this time ONLY clicking the top driver out of the choice of 2.
4. Downloaded Firecapture 2.2, renamed it 2.3 and added the update pack.
5. He didn't change the Flycap.dll at all

It then worked and he has no idea why.
Many thanks for everyone's help, let's hope the weathermen are right about Monday.

Alexandra


colmic

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by colmic »

This is the reason I think that Point Grey should contact Torsten Edelmann from Firecapture to make an offer of trade agreement.

This will be a win-win for all.
- Torsten could win a little money
- Point Grey could offer a real software with his cameras
- The user could use something wich works well!

Alex I'm looking forward to see your first results :)


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

I wanted to test fate again after getting my usb3 flea working in firecapture.
I was able to get it running up to 75 frames ps. But my other usb3 ports would not work and if not installed with the dmk plugged in the usb2 ports during the flycap initial set up....the dmk cameras would not work either!
So after Alexandras hubby got her camera running this afternoon...i did an experiment of my own.

Again uninstalling the flycapture stuff.
Re downloading it. Plugging in my dmk my flea and my external hard drive. This time did NOT install the usb3pro driver during the process. Only the first driver for pgrusb.

Both cameras work the flea now hits 96 frames per second at 16bit and full resolution... And the external drive runs as well. So the program did not take over all usb plugs.

The usb3pro driver seems to be the monster in the mix!

If youre having issues..... Give this a try!


RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

I know this has been a major pain for many people!

At first nothing would work for me. Then i could get the flea running but the dmk wouldnt work. Then i got both cameras but the usb3 hard drive would recognize. So I stopped trying and just accepted using the laptop to save and transfer. But it takes too much time. So after chatting a bit with Alexandra, and seeing her hubby get her kit running.... Seemed like a good time to try one more change.

That seems to be the monster! Hope its the last one moving forward!


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Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by solarchat »

of course, you know I have to bring this up...

EVERY Point Grey camera I ever owned (over 20) DID indeed "just plug in and work" with ASTRO IIDC on any and every Apple computer I ever owned. There are no silly drivers, .dll files, usb drivers, unusable vendor software, etc... They all just worked immediately, and have never stopped working. NO ONE WOULD BUY IT at $99 for the first copy and $49 for the second! so the guy went out of business....

Point Grey is not about to invest any money into an astronomical interface when they might sell 5 or 10 of these cameras a year to astronomers and 1500-2000 to the people who like the current interface. Imaging Source gave up and sold out to Celestron because they couldn't sell enough to justify keeping their astronomy line open. We hobbyists just expect everything to be free and to be catered to but it just doesn't make any business sense when 10 out of 10,000 astronomers is willing to buy any software or pay the increased price for its development.

We need to spread this hobby as much as possible and make it profitable to develop new stuff for it, not tell everyone how to make the scopes and cameras for free using old parts.

just my opinion of course, and I know it is not the majority opinion but Im putting it out there... :)


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RobBower

Re: Thoughts on the Grasshopper 3

Post by RobBower »

Honestly Stephen..... If I didnt already have all windows machines I would buy Apple right away just to have no issues!
Id pay the guy 10 times the cost for a copy of that program fir my machines! Anything to make it fun again!


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