Narrowest 393.37 ever by Apollo Lasky

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:18 am

3934.5A instead of 3933,7A

PB 0.1nm is not enough characteristic. How the sides are steep? What the skirt width?

Lunt and PST CaK filters have very steep sides and very good finesse.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:39 pm

Looks exciting!
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:33 pm

marktownley wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:39 pm
Looks exciting!
What exactly do you expect from such a filter, Mark?

May be it will show a filament or two as additional to what can be imaged with easily available Lunt?

I personally remember that Walter stated that the best contrast he has found was with Lunt CaL module
added with PST filter#1. This should give about 1,5A bandwidth with VERY steep sides of transmission curve.
The second best was two PST#1 filters coupled with Baader K-line filter. The third was the combination of
two straight Lunt CaK modules. This is what Harald Paleske use in his CaK telescope.

The only really interesting new filter for amateur solar imaging will be Ca I filter at 8542,1A with at least
0,5A bandwidth (double staked two 0,7A). There will be as much filaments as in H-a or even more and prettier.
And the seeing there is also MUCH MUCH more stable than at 393nm.

What do you think, Apollo?


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Spectral Joe » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:46 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:03 am
with the plot visualized you can see that half bandwidth at 44% is 16 milli-angstroms wide/ or 1.6 angstroms. This is definitely lower than a complete Lunt CaK system in terms of FWHM, and definitely higher transmission than both the lunt and coronado filter.
16 milliangstroms is 0.016 angstrom, not 1.6, perhaps you meant 16 millimicrons, aka nanometers. That would be 160 angstroms.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:01 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:50 pm
Just got another plot, the filter is greatly tunable. Here is a plot with 5 degrees.

Valery, tilt tuning the narrow band frequency on a kline system is extremely noteworthy at this point. The daystar system is $6000 and 5 angstroms.

Now i have just confirmed this filter can be blueshifted with a skybender with .01 degree precision. That is huge news in my book.


Sorry for the mistake joe. Glad you corrected it. Its still an amazing filter regardless.


Tilt of a thick enough parallel plate will cause an astigmatic image. One need to use a compensatory plate with opposite tilt.

Tilt also produce banding.

To bad you didn't send me the Skybender.


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:29 pm

This is about the closest I ever got to the image you shared:
CaK-Ani-BHS.gif
CaK-Ani-BHS.gif (7.96 MiB) Viewed 1945 times
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Spectral Joe » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:42 am

080715 Ca montage.jpg
080715 Ca montage.jpg (443.05 KiB) Viewed 1895 times
052017 3lamb montage large.jpg
052017 3lamb montage large.jpg (239.35 KiB) Viewed 1895 times
021716 montage.jpg
021716 montage.jpg (34.85 KiB) Viewed 1895 times
For some perspective, here are some images comparing CaII H (3968), Ha (6563), Hb (5461) and CaII (8542). In each case, the images were taken within minutes of each other, with a bandpass of 0.3 Angstrom. Just to provide images that illustrate the various points being made here.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:47 am

That's a great collection of images Joe!

Sadly I don't have the original data anymore for the prom lift off animation.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Spectral Joe » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:38 pm

Thanks, guys! Sorry about the wavelength labeling confusion, 5461 should be 4861, it was late and I had something else on my mind.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:47 pm

One should always remember that Ca II I at 8542,1A shows fibrills, filaments, prominences, spiculaes, flocculaes and supergranulation - a full range of details. And, the most important is that earth atmosphere is MUCH more steady at this wave length and so, one always can expect good seeing.

Joe, thanks a lot for your images.


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:48 pm

marktownley wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:29 pm
This is about the closest I ever got to the image you shared:
CaK-Ani-BHS.gif

Fantastic is all I can say.


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by mdwmark » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:03 am

That's a good company. They make high end hard coated filters. I see that they started to make amateur telescope filters(OPT has some). This must be a out of spec run from a job. The filter is spec at 393.37nm but is better at 393.44nm which is better for K-line. The way the transmission data looks ,there was a error in the run. I would say the blocking is from 200nm to 1200nm. So you better check that. You didn't say what they wanted for it. But it should make a good K-line filter.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:11 am

How uniform is this filter accross it's aperture?

What the CWL shift it has per 1degree C ?


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:14 am

mdwmark wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:03 am
The filter is spec at 393.37nm but is better at 393.44nm which is better for K-line.
Hi Mark,

Can you, please, explain why 393.44nm CWL is better than 393.37nm?

Because such a filter works in a F/10-30 cone and so, has CWL shift?


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Bob Yoesle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:02 am

Thanks for posting this SkyBurner.
PB 0.1nm is not enough characteristic. How the sides are steep? What the skirt width? (VD)

The filter is spec at 393.37nm but is better at 393.44nm which is better for K-line. The way the transmission data looks , there was a error in the run. I would say the blocking is from 200nm to 1200nm. So you better check that. You didn't say what they wanted for it. But it should make a good K-line filter. (MW)
Mark: I contacted Dick at chroma.com and he confirmed this filter is hard coated on fused silica, 0.25 lamda, blocked OD 5 200 nm to 1200 nm. The data set he sent me also indicates the filter peaks at 393.44 nm. Price $1250 USD.

Valery: I’ve put the data (383 nm to 403 nm) into an excel spreadsheet to generate some transmission plots (300 nm and 1200 nm data points extrapolated from the quoted spec. of OD 5):
ImageB.2.jpg
ImageB.2.jpg (37.13 KiB) Viewed 707 times
ImageC.jpg
ImageC.jpg (54.45 KiB) Viewed 707 times
While I don’t have comparison data for the Lunt or Coronado filters, the Baader CaK is available for comparison for the 390 nm to 400 nm transmission shown above:
Ba-K-zoom.gif
Ba-K-zoom.gif (115.68 KiB) Viewed 707 times
"Skirt width(s)" shown here:
ImageD.jpg
ImageD.jpg (54.52 KiB) Viewed 707 times
Around the 50% height of the transmission peak the width appears to be 0.13 nm (1.3 angstroms).

I went ahead and ordered the filter, and it has a 30 day refund privilege.
Last edited by Bob Yoesle on Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:31 am

Looking forward to seeing the results Bob, clear skies!
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:45 pm

Wow! That will be very interesting, looking forward to hear and see the results. Good luck Bob.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Bob Yoesle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:50 pm

FYI, I calculated from the data supplied a FWHM of 0.12 nm, a 10% transmission width of 0.42 nm, and a 1% transmission width or 1.41 nm. These figures approximate well with a single stack Lorentzian profile which states 10% ~ 3 x FWHM, and 1% ~ 10 x FWHM.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:06 pm

I am a bit confused now. TheSkyburner = Apollo Lasky?
Anyway: it depends on how Bob reacts when he has used the filter. In theory it is a whole lot closer to the holy grail of CaK imaging than anything else I have seen. So yes, of course I am interested!

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:44 pm

A 1A filter at 854nm has no real use. Even DS of 1A at 854nm still has no real use. In both cases these filters will show less than a 2.2A filter at 393nm. The resolution at 854nm is more than twice less than at 393nm. A tiny 130mm telescope will deliver about the same resolution and more chromospheric details at 393nm than a 280mm telescope does at 854nm.

According to Giana Caussi (a leading astronomer in solar physics) only a filter 0,25A and narrower will starts to show filaments and fibrills similar to what can be seen at H-a. As far as I know such an etalon is under construction now. For this wave length one need a large telescope (for a good resolution), a very narrow etalon, a large DERF and a very sensitive and low noise camera! Otherwise this will be just a money wasting. Required a complex solution.

As for a narrow filters at 393nm. All is OK only at a first glance. These have Lorenzian profile of transmission curve and the parasitic light from the skirt of transmission curve will notably affect the contrast. The 2.2A filters available from PST telescopes have very different transmission curve and one expert I spoke with told me that such a filter likely has better contrast at 393nm line than a narrower filter with a wide skirt in transmission curve. Such a narrow Lorenzian filter has a sense if it is a double staked. Then it will have a very high contrast, but probably still not much better than two PST etalons d-stacked. More so, two PST filters #1 can produce narrower bandpass if one of them will be tilted vs other. In this case a SkyBender may help to fine tune such a system.

There are no easy and cheap solutions here at these two wave lengths if we speak about subangstrom bandwidth. Otherwise they were at the market many years already.


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Last edited by Valery on Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:54 pm

Thanks for the clarification Apollo. And best wishes for Paul.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by marktownley » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:41 pm

The 393.4 0.1 sounds very tasty Apollo, I have to agree. My mind is already thinking about it and how pre blockers can trim the wings further still.

I also hear what you're saying Valery about Ca at 854nm, but, I like playing with a Na and Mg Quark, even if they are only slightly better than WL, and for this reason 854nm is also interesting and would be something I would play with.

I often go to a bar and choose a beer that I would not normally have, and that really I know it's not going to be the drink I settle on for the night, but still I like to try it, even though it might not be to my exact taste. Different people, different ways. The important thing is that you have fun doing whatever you enjoy doing.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:14 am

marktownley wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:41 pm

I also hear what you're saying Valery about Ca at 854nm,
All is MUCH MUCH worser and more difficult for 854nm. An etalon MUST has at least as narrow bandwidth as 0,25 (better as a DS) to start to show all the features we know well in H-a. Good IR camera is $$$$ now and this not helps either.


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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:19 am

Apollo,

All your reasonings about me, you and your heroic role, your heroic efforts, PST filters low availability etc etc have nothing to do with a real subject of my post.
The real subject is that this offered filter (prototype and version 1) have no advantage against PST filter which is narrow enough for a very wide CaK line at 393nm. And I explained why - due to very different transmission curves. Again - PST is 2.2A (confirmed) filter with close to squire sides, while a single cavity filter with about 1.5A FWHN has Lorenzian transmission profile with very wide skirt. In my post I specially underlined that such a filter will be very good if double stacked, propably better than DS of PST filters.
However, DS of PST filter has an advantage - if one of the filters will be tilted, the resulting bandwidth can be significantly narrowed - this is not the case with Lorenzian filters tilting.

Unlike your former attacks at me and my DERFs, I just feel necessity to clarify the nuances of this given filter and it's difference from traditional CaK filters. Not all members here know this.

P.S.
Playing with false names is just a plain impiety to the amateur solar community. "Paul"-SkyBurner is indeed you - Apollo Lasky. I got solid evidences that "Paul"-SkyBurner exactly = Apollo Lasky.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Bob Yoesle » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:22 am

If anybody knows a crew to manufacture some 150mm objectives to be .98 strehl for this filter as a primary dedicated scope , now is the time to step up out of the shadows and help please!
Mike Jones has designed some nice scopes @ f8 and f10 3 years ago:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5141 ... ke-filter/

Of course, f10 or longer is better, especially for getting closer to the narrower bandpasses...
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