Narrowest 393.37 ever by Apollo Lasky

Frankenscope? Let's see it!***be advised that NOTHING in this forum has been safety tested and you are reading and using these posts at your own peril. blah, blah, blah... dont mess around with your eyesight when it comes to solar astronomy. Use appropriate filtration at all times...
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:26 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:36 am
but I can give you some insane prominence images from my $25.00 standard meade 90mm x 800mm achromat with a plastic focuser. (it does have a kg3 filter mounted on the last baffle)

in fact I am getting such great performance with my chroma filter
2-3 images worth or millions words. So, give us these images you are talking about. And we will see.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:32 pm

I will post my images when bob is done doing his thing, because when he says it does not work for him; that is when i come in and show you that it does.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:37 pm

I know well one thing: if it will not work for Bob, it will not work for anybody else.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:11 pm

Icoming from the guy that insisted the 1 nanometer filter would not work either, you are about to lose. Powerful argument.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:01 pm

Valery: take my transmission plot from the high resolution carey spectrometer, manually recenter the data to 393.37 and than bring the center transmission down to 15%.

Show everyone what it says.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:16 pm

Merlin66 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:04 am
Guys,
You are confirming my thoughts and experience with filters and etalons.....
You really need to have a spectrograph to allow accurate measurement of CWL and transmission curves.
I can test any filter/ filter combo with a resolution (as measured) <0.02A across the whole solar spectrum (370-8000A), unfortunately I'm in Australia which makes things a bit more difficult.
Building a capable spectrograph is well within the "average" amateur's DIY capability.
Think about it.
Ken,

If thats all it takes for people to understand then i will gladly next day airship you my filter mounted i. The 2” skybender with the et402.15x in the nose piece.

Ive done this for six years, i have no reason to lie. Nothing to gain by it working, and nothing to lose by constant poking and prodding that what im doing is wrong.


I have it working. If you keep bashing my name and telling people i dont know what im doing its your own fault!

Have some faith for once in humanity, i have nothing but good intentions for everyone here.

I am just happy i figured it out, and have the desire to share.

I hit some guy with my car for christs sake, enough is enough. Quit making life difficult. :cry:

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 pm

I have alot of negative things happening in my life right now, and very few positive things. all that i am asking for is your patience. Dont forget im giving away the skybenders for free and have been its entire conception.

This stuff costs me money, and time, and stress is all that i get in return. I am taking care of 4 kids that do not belong to me and they are more important than anything in the world right now to me.

Now, it does not take a rocket scientist to read this plot.

This is is the actual carey spectrometer plot I originally got from chroma. Now here, represented without energy rejection, it is just pure reduction via Neutral density to bring it down to 20%.

Where did the wings go? poof gone. The actual 393.4 energy rejection filter trim's the side band off even greater, this is called "purity control".


please, patience.
lowest angstrom calcium filter ever.png
lowest angstrom calcium filter ever.png (59.46 KiB) Viewed 836 times

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Merlin66 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:16 pm

Skybender,
I think you miss-read my message...there was no intention of inferring you or the others are not capable of setting up filters.
I was suggesting, we as amateur solar observers, should have access to a capable spectrograph to allow us to confirm our own set-ups.
"Astronomical Spectroscopy - The Final Frontier" - to boldly go where few amateurs have gone before
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ast ... scopy/info
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"Imaging Sunlight - using a digital spectroheliograph" - Springer

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:08 pm

I am sorry ken, my message was not entirely directed at you and i have nothing negative to say about you. You are great!

The whole astronomy community is surrounded by negativity and bad actors. You are definitly not one of them.

Everyone has their own abilities, and you are a giant in the optical world.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:10 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 pm


This is is the actual carey spectrometer plot I originally got from chroma. Now here, represented without energy rejection, it is just pure reduction via Neutral density to bring it down to 20%.

Where did the wings go? poof gone. The actual 393.4 energy rejection filter trim's the side band off even greater, this is called

please, patience.

lowest angstrom calcium filter ever.png

The only way out is to double stack this filter at the same substrate.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 am

Valery i just cannot comment on you anymore. You just do not understand how blocking out of band light works.

I suggest you read the schematics for an entire h-alpha system, or read the patent on the blockers and trimmers used in daystar filters. This is my last comment. I am sorry, there is just no point in fighting or arguing about this. It never solves anything, and never did in the history of mankind.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:51 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 am
Valery i just cannot comment on you anymore. You just do not understand how blocking out of band light works.

I suggest you read the schematics for an entire h-alpha system, or read the patent on the blockers and trimmers used in daystar filters. This is my last comment. I am sorry, there is just no point in fighting or arguing about this. It never solves anything, and never did in the history of mankind.
Again, Fred Jaber was 100% correct. You just not understand how the blocking filter works and how the DS works.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:52 am

You know what, Valery, I am not giving up on you. I have extreme faith in you dispite all of our disagreements.

You were kind enough to sell me your SAFIX and I still have an honest respect for you, something in this universe is just not aligned with us properly and I will attempt to fix that.

I promised a guide for what I am doing and what I learned about all this over the years so I am going to work on that.

The first guide will be based on real world filters, using theoretical spectrometer data. This is an incredible secret recipe that took many years of finding. I sincerely hope this will positively change your opinions about the optical phenomena, in regards to physically building a new wavelength system profile entirely. I will just try my best to represent graphically with spectral plot data.

We all know that an H-alpha system just will not work without a blocking filter. Keep that in mind through all this.

We all know that just simply double stacking two identical filters will not trim the wing profile, they have to be counter tuned via tilting to produce effective off-band destructive interference, to constructively trim the desired on-band wavelength profile. this is extremely important to all operating parameters in any filter system, etalon based, or broadband filter based.

using these known "constant" principles, we are going to build a calcium system that is fully blocked.

So give me a few hours, I will try to get this done tonight.


TheSkyBurner wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 am
Valery i just cannot comment on you anymore. You just do not understand how blocking out of band light works.

I suggest you read the schematics for an entire h-alpha system, or read the patent on the blockers and trimmers used in daystar filters. This is my last comment. I am sorry, there is just no point in fighting or arguing about this. It never solves anything, and never did in the history of mankind.
Valery wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:10 am
TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 pm


This is is the actual carey spectrometer plot I originally got from chroma. Now here, represented without energy rejection, it is just pure reduction via Neutral density to bring it down to 20%.

Where did the wings go? poof gone. The actual 393.4 energy rejection filter trim's the side band off even greater, this is called

please, patience.

lowest angstrom calcium filter ever.png

The only way out is to double stack this filter at the same substrate.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:08 am

first, I am going to produce some notes regarding the single energy rejection filter I am used. This performance data is directly from Dick@ chroma, so you cannot tell me it is wrong. No matter how much you do not want to believe it, this is ACTUAL performance data of the filter as it is tilted.

the first data here, is for 0 degrees. Note that 393nm at 3% 394nm at 19%
chroma et402.15x.JPG
chroma et402.15x.JPG (97.3 KiB) Viewed 757 times
Now the next data profile, is with the tilted 5 degrees. Note that 393nm changed quite dramatically. (394nm boosted to 59%)
The most important aspect to note is the rising peak from 393 to 393.5
et40215x 5 degrees.JPG
et40215x 5 degrees.JPG (73.51 KiB) Viewed 757 times
From this information we can build a very simple graph. More importantly however is for everyone to understand that tilting filters is the only way this is ever going to work.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:26 am

0 degrees graphed
0 degrees.png
0 degrees.png (13.17 KiB) Viewed 756 times

5 degrees of tilt graphed
5 degrees.png
5 degrees.png (12.19 KiB) Viewed 756 times

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:12 am

using this information we can then decide what is going to happen on the 1 angstrom filter, we know what the original graph looks like because i have the high resolution detail from the chroma carey spectrometer. I already drew that plot, so we will just use this as the reference original un-tilted data.

here we now know that 393.3 is at about 25% with the tilted 402.15 filter
393.4 is exactly 30% with the tilted 402.15 filter
393.5 is exactly 35% with the tilted 402.15 filter

we can now subtract this known data directly from the 1 angstrom 393.37bp0.1 filter plot to generate a new graph.

Now, I do not have the actual tilted performance data for the 1 angstrom filter, but as you can see the wing curve is now pretty flat and smooth.

With this stacked performance combination, All that matters now is shifting the peak wavelength to 393.37nm by precision tilting of the 1 angstrom filter. The profile is now a desired spike ʌ

Can you under stand this now? It really is not complicated at all. I only have a desire to help, i dont want to fight or argue.

As i said before, to each his own abilities. This is what I am good at, i have done filter trimming for 6 years.

Again, i have no reason to lie. This is exactly how you build filtration systems.

Please remember, this plot is for the 1 angstrom filter at 0 degrees. The profile will greatly change at 5 degrees.

All we want right now to match the coronado performance, is to shift the center frequency of the chroma filter to be locked at 393.37nm, via tilt. That is what this is entirely about. It is no different than tilting the PST H-alpha filter to lock in at 656.28

The important definition of FWHM
(FWHM) is an expression of the extent of function given by the difference between the two extreme values of the independent variable at which the dependent variable is equal to half of its maximum value.

Our new peak maximum value, assumed to be at 30% is max transmission. Half of this value, would be 15%. This is the true FWHM.

You are not wrong in stating that two of these filters will provide a more optimal spectra. But what I am doing right now is how this is actually working. In both instances it must be done with the skybender, or your own tilt device to constructively shift the bandwidth into the correct position.
combined angstrom test plot.png
combined angstrom test plot.png (32.05 KiB) Viewed 744 times
combined angstrom test plot with fwhm.png
combined angstrom test plot with fwhm.png (28.76 KiB) Viewed 742 times

What I did is being done with a single ERF filter, that I happened to already have on hand. I know of many other variable filters that can clip both ends of the profile simultaneously without killing the peak transmission too much, Mark mentioned one already. The Semrock 387/11 nm BrightLine, for example can literally cut everything above 393.4 when used properly.
https://www.semrock.com/FilterDetails.a ... 01-Clin-25

Can we all please just work together as a team now, with constructive criticism?

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by bart1805 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:16 am

Don't understand everything in this conversation, but I thought that doublestacking two identical etalons did have an effect on the wing profile. When I doublestack my two PST etalons there is no longer a double limb effect. Am I completely missing the point here?

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:49 pm

bart1805 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:16 am
Don't understand everything in this conversation, but I thought that doublestacking two identical etalons did have an effect on the wing profile. When I doublestack my two PST etalons there is no longer a double limb effect. Am I completely missing the point here?
Double stacking only works when both filters are tuned via tilt, to create a constructive overlap of the filter valley's. The primary filter(#1) must be slightly blue shifted. The secondary filter(#2) must be directly on center band.

You are correct about the performance removing the double limb, but this is because of "destructive interference".

An overlapping pattern of wavelengths whose maximum values cancel out the lower surrounding values. The new peak is centered on your desired output wavelength, with lower transmission. This "purifies" the transmission.
double stacked off band center peak.jpg
double stacked off band center peak.jpg (35.68 KiB) Viewed 701 times
Last edited by TheSkyBurner on Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:01 pm

Now as the leader of this entire revelation, I am the guy that literally did 90% of everything here. I found the filter supplier, I figured out the energy rejection filter, i built the filter plot, I invented the skybender filter tilting device.

:bow2 Apollo Lasky. :bow2


I conclude my argument, by revealing the stretched vertical profile. So keep saying Apollo is wrong, keep saying Apollo does not know what he is doing. Keep telling yourself that this will not work.

This is how you build a new calcium system. YOU ARE WELCOME.

The new transmission is a SPIKE, and all that matters is to shift the wavelength toward the blue, using the skybender. When the peak of the spike is brought to 393.37 you now officially have a K3 center transmission. dick@chroma is emailing me the carey spectrometer plot. So lay off the name bashing, and be thankful I broke every rule to get you this information; OKAY?
393.37 402.15 vertical stretch.png
393.37 402.15 vertical stretch.png (23.87 KiB) Viewed 715 times
Now a special thanks to Bob Yoesle once again for his personal discovery of chromospheric bleed,. I also have a special thanks to Mark Townley for his own personal discoveries.

All three of us have been on this quest since 2014. (i was icecreamcat, and many other pseudonymns; after countless bannings.)
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/4853 ... ga-2a-cak/

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:09 pm

Spectral data for 4 degrees of tilt, right from chroma.
EF220FE4-D1B9-4DEF-8FFF-9E90DF3D3BC5.png
EF220FE4-D1B9-4DEF-8FFF-9E90DF3D3BC5.png (626.31 KiB) Viewed 674 times
Spectral data for 5 degrees of tilt, right from chroma.
D997B7BB-544D-4008-8C30-925B3C2A4FD2.png
D997B7BB-544D-4008-8C30-925B3C2A4FD2.png (624.68 KiB) Viewed 674 times

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:10 pm

1. One can't get narrower FWHM by shifting a second filter (with the same initial FWHM as in the first filter).
The resulting FWHM will remains the same but transmission will significantly decrease. The more shift, the more tnansmission loss.

2. Bloking filter will not help as the problem is in the wide skirt of the main filter. The only way out is to DS this filter. Then it will have fantastic performance if it will be properly DS-stacked.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:52 pm

Sorry Valery, you are 100% wrong. I tried to be nice to you, I tried to show you how this works, I tried to explain how its never going to work without tilting the filter. Just go do your own thing and stay away.

PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO INFLUENCE SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH.

QUIT ARGUING WITH THE REALITY OF THIS. THIS INFORMATION IS DIRECTLY FROM THE CHROMA SPECTROMETER.

IF YOU DONT WANT TO BELIEVE IT THEN JUST QUIT POSTING.
chroma 393.37 tilted 4 degrees.jpg
chroma 393.37 tilted 4 degrees.jpg (54.34 KiB) Viewed 629 times

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:23 pm

Unfortunately I can no longer rely on Bob Yoesle to correctly use this filter if he is not going to install it in the Skybender. Chroma informed me of the multiple sales this filter has generated for them.

attempt getting your own filter manufactured in private, and you still need the Skybender. No way around it guys, sorry.

I was looking for a team but obviously selfishness is more important to some people.

Stay tuned for my images,

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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by Valery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:12 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:52 pm
Sorry Valery, you are 100% wrong. I tried to be nice to you, I tried to show you how this works, I tried to explain how its never going to work without tilting the filter. Just go do your own thing and stay away.

PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO INFLUENCE SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH.

QUIT ARGUING WITH THE REALITY OF THIS. THIS INFORMATION IS DIRECTLY FROM THE CHROMA SPECTROMETER.

IF YOU DONT WANT TO BELIEVE IT THEN JUST QUIT POSTING.

chroma 393.37 tilted 4 degrees.jpg

I wish you a luck, Apollo, believe me.

BTW. Skybender is the device which is NECESSARY for such experiments. I would gladly use it with my PST CaK filters. This your development is a very useful for all amateurs who doing same things as Bob and Mark T.

Too bad I haven't SkyBender last summer during my experiments with the CaK.


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Last edited by Valery on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 393.4 bp0.1 - yes it does exist.

Post by TheSkyBurner » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:12 pm

Valery: As I said, I have a deep respect for you and will gladly mail you one. We just have different ways of seeing the world and we just have to accept this fact. We have different personalities, and I accept that. We can work around it. Disagreements destroy wonderful things!

All I can do is apologize to you repeatedly. I want things to work out between us, that is what teammates do. Little things do not bother me; but over time they just cause stress.

First images I will be showing the setup.

There is a beautiful dual core sunspot right in center of the disc and I currently have a tree blocking my view So i have to wait a couple hours for maximum data,

I want to post fresh images so we can compare directly with aia1600 and aia1700. NOT the pst cak filter.

Please understand my computer is 17 years old, with windows xp. My capture ability is limited to 500 frames per .avi and I can only load 2000 frames total if I have zero issues with registax. AVIStakkert physically does not work on my computer, firecapture does not work with my basler 1300-30gm. My processing is severely limited by the software/hardware I am forced to work with.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
telescope : meade 90 x 800 with standard blue broadband antireflective coating
infrared Erf : 58mm KG3 permanently mounted internally to the baffle in front of the meade focuser

primary ERF and blocking filter: 25mm chroma et402.15x mounted inside thorlabs deep well filter holder, tilted ~3degrees internally with hand filed shims.

Narrowband filter: Chroma 1.25" ct393.27bp0.1 mounted in the tilting cell of a 2" golden Skybender

Nothing else is used
skybox.jpg
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skybender meade.jpg
skybender meade.jpg (266.66 KiB) Viewed 545 times
suntree.jpg
suntree.jpg (341.34 KiB) Viewed 545 times
blue meade coating.jpg
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onscreen info basler 1300-30gm.jpg
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