A very special prom on Oct 10

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A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by gabrieli » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:37 pm

I didn't have any great expectations for this day since clouds were passing over the sun intermitently.
The first setup was my LS 152 + Quark Chromosphere + Blackfly S 3.2Mp (1/1.8 inch sensor).
Then I setup my c9.25 with an Aries ERF in front and a 0.63X reducer + 3x telecentric + Quark Combo + Blackfly S 3.2 Mp camera.
I couldn't get much more than 1000 frames per video due to clouds but the seeing seemed to be moderately good.

I haven't had much luck with the single stack c9.25+Quark Combo with disk features but I can tell with the results below that this is going to be a killer combination for proms under good conditions.

Lou


The first 2 images are with the Lunt 152:
152a.jpg
152a.jpg (742.87 KiB) Viewed 369 times
152b.jpg
152b.jpg (754.05 KiB) Viewed 369 times

The real surprise happened with the c9.25 setup showing better detail than I remember in the past attempts (albeit with lesser
proms). The last 2 images are uncropped.

(a) with the 0.63X reducer in place for a 4300mm efl
4.jpg
4.jpg (1.09 MiB) Viewed 369 times
(b) without 0.63X reducer in place for a 6900mm efl
5.jpg
5.jpg (609.18 KiB) Viewed 369 times
6.jpg
6.jpg (701.45 KiB) Viewed 369 times

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by MapleRidge » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:08 am

Hi Lou...

The proms came out well with all setups. I think the C9.25 did a great job with the chromospheric details as well.

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by Valery » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:50 am

Prominences with 9.25" scope are so impressive! 0,63x reducer makes a sense.


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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by Dave S » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:58 am

Those are stunning shots!

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:03 am

I have a small suggestion, maybe put a baader planetarium 35nm (or if you can afford the 3nm enforced version) H-alpha filter directly before all your imaging equipment. So attach it before your reducer and before the telecentric. That way you are absolutely guaranteed to have nothing but h-alpha coming out of the telecentric. The transmission is high enough that it will not affect your camera speed too much.

It looks like you are just having a simple affect of too much wavelength energy. I bet you can get that 9" sct with the aries filter to be a world class instrument. I will bet money the surface contrast will pop out like crazy with that extra bit of baader planetarium filtration.

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by gabrieli » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:33 am

Hi, Skyburner

Thanks for your suggestion about using an Ha filter in the optical train. I see that both Baader and Astronomik have a 7nm Ha filter that's ok pricewise. I'm not entirely clear on why the filter should be ahead of all the optics at the back end of the scope. That puts it in a very high heat load region at "prime" focus(ERF does pass heat that is uncomfortable to the skin at the end of the scope). Placing the filter between the etalon and camera would expose it to a lower heat load but I want to
know if the ability of the filter to block undesirable wavelengths be affected on its location.

Lou

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:15 am

This is why i suggest placing it in front of everything, you already have the full size erf but as my previous tests i learned this is not enough for safety unless using a negative beam. The metal coating on the baader planetarium is pretty indestructible, i tested it on a 203mm refractor lens pointed at the sun for four straight hours intentionally trying to bake it with the heat. It survived.

The goal here is to lower that wavelength temperature as much as possible on the ext of your SCT(preferably down to 10nm or less), before your first clear optical element. Definitely before the telecentric. Imagine that energy is going into your telecentric, and being magnified. If it gets cooked you are not going to be happy. It will certainly increase the lifespan of everything after the secondary erf. The quark is using a 1nm filter, but currently is taking the full force by itself, and was not designed for such a large telescope aperture; even with the full size erf on it.

Think of the operation like sifting for gold. The pan with the largest holes is for catching the large bulk(high energy) (full size aries 50nm), the pan with the smallest holes is for catching the dust(low energy)(quark 1nm filter). You need something in the middle to capture the medium energy hitting the quark 1nm filter.. (7nm - 10nm would be best) It physically lowers the force on the a etalon, which is designed for miniscule energy...

I would recommend anybody that is using a 8+ inch scope for h-alpha use both erf filters, .

People are going to disagree here, but temperature is everything when it comes to an h-alpha filters optimal operation.

I made this diagram, very simple to understand.
Ideal energy rejection chart.PNG
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Last edited by TheSkyBurner on Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by Valery » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:06 am

gabrieli wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:33 am
Hi, Skyburner

Thanks for your suggestion about using an Ha filter in the optical train. I see that both Baader and Astronomik have a 7nm Ha filter that's ok pricewise. I'm not entirely clear on why the filter should be ahead of all the optics at the back end of the scope. That puts it in a very high heat load region at "prime" focus(ERF does pass heat that is uncomfortable to the skin at the end of the scope). Placing the filter between the etalon and camera would expose it to a lower heat load but I want to
know if the ability of the filter to block undesirable wavelengths be affected on its location.

Lou
Lou, do not use a 7nm filter. It has IR leak. May be a 3nm has the same. Much better is to use a 35nm. It has no leakage in IR.
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:07 am

Valery wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:06 am
gabrieli wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:33 am
Hi, Skyburner

Thanks for your suggestion about using an Ha filter in the optical train. I see that both Baader and Astronomik have a 7nm Ha filter that's ok pricewise. I'm not entirely clear on why the filter should be ahead of all the optics at the back end of the scope. That puts it in a very high heat load region at "prime" focus(ERF does pass heat that is uncomfortable to the skin at the end of the scope). Placing the filter between the etalon and camera would expose it to a lower heat load but I want to
know if the ability of the filter to block undesirable wavelengths be affected on its location.

Lou
Lou, do not use a 7nm filter. It has IR leak. May be a 3nm has the same. Much better is to use a 35nm. It has no leakage in IR.

Valery is right the astrodon and baader planetarium 7nm filters are only blocked to 1150nm, but i think since you are using the D-erf filter with it this is not an entirely bad factor. I am not sure about the reinforced baader planetarium filter, the spectral data is not listed anywhere, so i sent baader an email requesting this information.

However the 35nm filter is also way cheaper and is already well known to be a perfect match to drop the heat. It has been used extensively in systems already including pst mods with massive objectives. you should place this as #1.

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by bart1805 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:18 am

Baader 35nm works really well. I have one on the nosepiece of the etalon to protect everything else in the train from the heat the D-Erf let's through.
Beautiful pictures Lou!

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by pedro » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:15 am

I also use a Baader 35nm in all my H-alpha shots (installed in the nosepiece)

Nice proms Lou

Your Quark must be the best in the market

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by gabrieli » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:31 am

The feedback on these Ha filters is a good example of why it's so great having people with technical or real world experience on this board that freely offer information. I currently use a 2" Baader UV/IR blocking filter on the nosepiece of telecentric for heat protection for the telecentric and the etalon but this doesn't provide any improvement in image contrast.

One question remaining, though, is whether the 35 nm filter offers any significant contrast boost in the image or whether I would have to use it in combination with another Ha filter to accomplish that. I understand why the 7nm filter, given its IR leakage, would not offer heat protection by itself. Would combining a 35nm with a 7nm provide more contrasty views since the 7nm is described as being able to cut undesirable wavelengths more sharply than the 35nm?

The situations I'm wondering about involve the following combinations

1. UV/IR block on telecentric nosepiece for heat protection + 7nm filter on etalon nosepiece for image contrast
2. 35nm alone on the telecentric nosepiece for heat protection + some improvement in image contrast
3. 35nm on telecentric nosepiece for heat protection + 7nm on etalon nosepiece for image contrast

Lou

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:59 am

I cannot comment on the boost in image contrast other than applying a 5% drop in overall intensity.

However, I CAN with absolutely certainty tell you that your quark will operate at its designed temperature and this will allow it to perform on band. The quark instrument is highly sensitive to heat factors, and light intensity factors. So yes, lowering the temperature and lowering the intensity before the telecentric is going to optimize the etalon for best performance.

If the quark blocking filter(andover 1nm) is letting out just a little bit more intensity both red / infrared(entirely possible) than expected, then the quark heater thermostat is going to function more slowly and the etalon will not correctly "stress".

This idea here is just to get your quark optimized for best results, because it looks like you do have a world class instrument and it is performing well. It just needs that extra little bit of filtration to get that extra 5% intensity out of the optics based on your description of function regarding the surface detail. I can see the spicules are there, and they look incredible, but there does seem to be some photospheric leakage that is also visible. This photospheric leak will likely go away and the spicules will be pencil sharp across the entire disc area! Your surface quality will improve dramatically.

I can also say with absolute confidence the quark was never intended to use a 9" aperture, you can confirm this by looking at the daystar energy rejection filter list.

http://www.daystarfilters.com/energy.shtml

That being said, You must optimize your quark for a 9" objective and the only way to do that is to eliminate all the undesired stress from the etalon.

I think you will be very happy when adding the additional filtration, 35nm definitely!

I will also confidently say that the 7nm or 3nm filter will completely reduce the entire wavelength profile to cold level.
(is it worth extra cost? It may very well be if that is indeed how the quark combo was actually intended to operate on such a large aperture.)

I cannot comment about any reflections caused with the 7nm and 3nm filters however, nobody has used them for this to my knowledge.

I have updated the energy rejection chart to include the 7nm filter, now a 100% optimized energy level at the quark etalon for the massive apertures.
Ideal energy rejection chart update.PNG
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by krakatoa1883 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:25 pm

My own Quark completely refuses to work if a Baader 35nm filter is placed in front of it, irrespective of filter's distance and Quark tuning. It's not a matter of temperature because the tuning can't be recovered by heating/cooling the etalon chamber.

Much better is 7nm filter.

BTW, excellent images Lou, spicule details are fantastic.
Last edited by krakatoa1883 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by marktownley » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:28 pm

Very nice images Lou!

I've used the 7nm Baader Ha infront of my quark on a number of scopes with no issue.
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:17 pm

krakatoa1883 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:25 pm
My own Quark completely refuses to work if a Baader 35nm filter is placed in front of it, irrespective of filter's distance and Quark tuning. It's not a matter of temperature because the tuning can't be recovered by heating/cooling the etalon chamber.

Much better is 7nm filter.

BTW, excellent images Lou, spicule details are fantastic.
that is interesting about the 35nm filter and your quark, what is your complete setup arrangement?

operating temperature is certainly an issue with h-alpha filters. All of them.
https://www.daystarfilters.com/hydrogen.htm

"the T-Scanner model is designed to operate at an ambient 73 degree temperature with a tilt adjustment to accommodate a shift of approximately 10 degrees F.

The Quantum SE models are designed for dedicated on-band operation for amateur observation, outreach, public observatory and amateur visual and imaging applications. They are tuned at the DayStar Filters Laboratory to maintain to optimum temperature for each individual filter assembly."


If 10 degrees Fahrenheit is enough to off-band a t-scanner etalon, then 10 degrees fahrenheit is also going to throw off the quark.
So if the operating temperature of the quark is intended to be 55c, and the telecentric is pushing out 75c then the etalon heater can no longer do its job.

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by eroel » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Lou:
All beautiful images, but the ones taken with the 9.25" and the full Aries ERF are very very good.
I will try my 10" f/20 Mak with the Baader 35nm filter as son as I have good weather to see the Sun.
Regards,
Eric.

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by christian viladrich » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:11 pm

Hello Lou,

Nice images of spicules. You are slighly off-band, but this is good for the contrast of spicules. Now, you are ready for good seeing :-)

BTW-1, a 35 nm would have zero effect on the contrast. You need to go down to below 5 A to see any contrast enhancement. See middle of this page :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... rast-2.htm

BTW-2, I no longer use my 12 nm Ha filter in front of my telecentric (on C8 Edge-HD + ERF). Do you feel any heat at the output of the telecentric ?

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by krakatoa1883 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:41 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:17 pm
that is interesting about the 35nm filter and your quark, what is your complete setup arrangement?
I exposed the problem in this old discussion, however since then I couldn't find any reasonable explanation for such a behavior. In the meantime I sold the 35 and replaced with a front Baader ERF or a rear 7nm, depending on the telescope used.
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:32 pm

christian viladrich wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:11 pm


BTW-2, I no longer use my 12 nm Ha filter in front of my telecentric (on C8 Edge-HD + ERF). Do you feel any heat at the output of the telecentric ?

Best regards
Christian
Why did you stop? Are you using the airy lab ERF, baader d-erf, or aries triband erf?

Is it not appropriate to have full blocking before the telecentric?


This discussion is getting very interesting now, especially with krakatoas previous post. it seems like everyone is having very different inconsistencies between usages here.

Obviously a pst filter operates totally different than a telecentric daystar filter or solar spectrum filter

The pst filter operates exactly like the lunt pressure tuner between the collimator and refocus lens, and even lunt places the erf directly infront of the collimator.

Obviously full aperture is the way to go for an SCT telescope! The temperature out of the full size erf is still hot. (above 100F) But the lunt internal erf is in a deep converging beam 150mm before focus and the collimator is negative so it is not exposed to focused heat.

So now that is a great question, what is the temperature out of the 2x telecentric, 3x telecentric, and 4x telecentric. Does going from 8" to 14" increase this temperature? This is good discussion!

What is the true operating temperature of quarks. There has to be a basic "ideal" zone for all of them. I would assume solar spectrum filters have more demanding quality control so every unit of those brand is probably identical in operation.

I only suggested the secondary erf to Lou because I too noticed he was off band, and that there was some photospheric leakage. I naturally assumed more energy rejection was the cure. But if christian is saying differently then that changes alot of arguments.

Valery: are you using a secondary erf with your pst etalon? Or just relying entirely on the quark.

Mark: are you using a secondary erf on your HaT telescope with your quark?

I know the baader planetarium D-erf filter only goes up to 180mm, perhaps there was a reason for that. Also the triband erf system on the triband sct is letting in three bands of energy over the DERF and they are not recommending additional filtration with the solar spectrum filter. The solar spectrum filter obviously has an internal blocking filter or else it would not work. It must also have blockers and trimmers,

So what is the first filter on the solar spectrum nose piece, we know that on the quark it is a 1nm andover 656.3fs02


Now i also noticed that another user, sulcis2000 is getting an identical result to lou with his quark.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24928

I always assumed his was also not operating properly.

Now these are two very different scopes, one refractor and one sct. Both are 9" But they have identical off band issue.
Sulcis2000 with sub aperture baader d-erf, Gabrieli with a full aperture aries. So what is going on with the quark!

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by marktownley » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:41 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:32 pm
Mark: are you using a secondary erf on your HaT telescope with your quark?
I found in the experiments I did it didn't make any difference. Best game changer I found was using the Edge HD 0.7 reducer ahead of the Quark instead of having the native f10 beam of the HaT feeding the Quark. After trying Airylab telecentric, Baader 4x telecentric, I found I get the best results with the native telecentric that comes with the Quark. I also found I get more transmission through by changing the 12.5mm filter on the nosepiece of the Quark with the 25mm version.
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by krakatoa1883 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:54 am

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:32 pm
This discussion is getting very interesting now, especially with krakatoas previous post. it seems like everyone is having very different inconsistencies between usages here.
Quark behavior seems quite variable between different units. When I noted the problems with the 35nm filter my first thought was that the unit needed some "extra heat" that can't arrive to the etalon if an efficient IR blocker is put in front of the device. But in this case I should have been able to improve the image by rotating the tuning knob clockwise as this increases the etalon temperature, however doing so actually made things worse.

My second thought was the BF. Removing the internal telecentric and replacing it with an external amplifier while keeping the same f/ratio at the etalon distance and the 35nm filter on the diagonal nose, considerably improved images. In the latter configuration the Andover BF sees a much higher f/ratio (f/15 - f/20 instead of f/5 - f/7 depending on the telescope used) and is not directly behind the 35nm. Evidently this change "something" (but what ?) that allow the system to work properly.

Eventually, however, I was not satisfied with the filter and sold it.


@Mark, where did you purchase the 25 mm BF ? Can it be ordered to Andover directly from Europe ? Thanks
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:19 pm

i just got a reply from baader planetarium about the 3.5nm filter, they do not have the spectral plot for it which means it is manufactured by a 3rd party and not by baader planetarium. they did mention it is ir blocked. Since they have no information on the filter however i would not purchase it until some actual transmission data is released..

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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by MapleRidge » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:44 am

Hi everyone...

A couple of questions to pose here as the discussion evolves. First, in the spring of 2017 when I got the Airylab telecentric I met Frédéric at NEAF and he suggested adding a Ha filter in image train. Their telecentric has a 1.25" filter mount before the amplifier optics and can be tilted as well. I bought an Astronomic 12nm filter while at NEAF...link below

https://www.astronomik.com/en/fotografi ... -12nm.html

I have not had a lot of time to use this on the intended larger OTA (C9.25 Edge), but I really couldn't see much difference with or without the filter installed (tilted or not as well). This is in conjunction with a Daystar full aperture ERF (their Yellow glass version). My other option was the Baader UV/IR cut mounted ahead of the 4x Powermate or 3x Explore Scientific Tele-extender which seemed to be my best option. The filter used is a Daystar Quantum 0.45A PE filter. I'm curious to know what the thoughts are on this Ha as a secondary ERF.

The second questions refers to the comment made by Christian that Lou's image is off band...which side of center and by how much do you estimate the deviation? I'd also like to know what you base this on...I'd like to know to evaluate my own images in the future.

Thanks,
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Re: A very special prom on Oct 10

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:51 am

Looking at this image of a daystar quantum professional etalon, it says right on the etalon itself the operating temperature is 104 degrees fahrenheit. Image

I am not an expert on etalon performance or daystar products, but I already know that the quark is more sensitive to thermal inconsistency since it is the lowest end device in terms of quality control. It is designed to work, and that is it; It was not designed to follow a specific standard of operation except in an F30 beam, it was only designed to operate on band, and off-band with a heater that is specifically set to idle levels. There is no temperature gauge to guarantee you are always on-band and so no way to compare it to a second quark device temperature wise to ensure standardization.

104 degrees is not alot of heat when you are dealing with the sun(it consistently hits 115 degrees outside in phoenix just standing in a shadow).

I think the proper thing to do would be to get accurate measurements of the telecentric heat output. If the telecentric is outputting more than 130 degrees F; then it is `100% logical to assume that the thermal properties of the first blocking filter are designed to absorb that extra 30 degrees so its output is less than 104F,

If the first blocking filter output exceeds 104F then the etalon will not function. (to what degree i cannot guess)

We can also assume that the glass will passively radiate some of the energy, especially with reflections perpendicular to the filter coating. This could possibly transfer to the surrounding filter case.

Now, knowing that these etalons are strictly controlled by temperature. If your idle load temp is at 25c from sitting in a cooled environment; and your energy rejection filter has cold output also at 25c(atmospheric temperature) then the etalon cooker HAS to bake the etalon glass some time for it to reach the standard operating temperature of of 40c. How long it takes I cannot say. But the quark would have the same operating parameter. It is made of the same type of mica material as the professional edition, it just has B-grade parts.

I would assume that the etalon on the PE filter to be thermally isolated from the surrounding ambient temperatures because it would have to be. The cooker would heat up the atmosphere inside of the filter cell, not just the glass itself. So I would expect the etalon to be isolated from all ambient air by two fused silica windows. It is likely that is also be isolated from air 100%, and rely solely on the temperature of the immersion oil that is holding the mica plates together. Not under a vacuum, just suspended in a fluid. I would say it is the fluid that is getting baked.

So if the etalon heater is weak, it may never come to proper temp depending how well your energy rejection system is.

Maple ridge: that astronomik filter plot looks great, it is fully blocked up to 1100nm on the image and is totally flatlined there, i would believe it to be blocked at least OD-3.5 @ 1200nm as well. It is also manufactured in germany which makes it one of the best out there.

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