Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Frankenscope? Let's see it!***be advised that NOTHING in this forum has been safety tested and you are reading and using these posts at your own peril. blah, blah, blah... dont mess around with your eyesight when it comes to solar astronomy. Use appropriate filtration at all times...
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by Valery » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:58 am

Collimated beam scheme with LS50FHa.

I would not reccommend to other peoples to go this way unless they have a fun in the experimenting, efforts, time and money wasting.

All these Lunt etalons are so inconsistent in it's native CWL, bandwidth, finesse and places where peoples use them are so different (typical barometric pressure and temperature), that there is no any warranty that even two etalons, taken from the same batch, will work not say identically, but at least similarly! This is the reason I gave up with cheaper alternatives to Lunt 152mm telescope.

What bad things can we expect in the implementation of this scheme?

1. Sweet spot. The larger the ratio of a telescope diameter to an etalon diameter, the smaller a sweet spot is.
2. Sweet spot banding is the most annoying. It depends of required tilt of an etalon we need to apply to come to the H-a core.
The farther the etalon CWL from the H-a core WL, the more tilt required, the more pronounced banding will be in such a telescope.
3. High sensitivity of the banding problem to a barometric pressure.

Here some photos which illustrate all the above bad things.

On a final note about collimated beam: one need a pressure tuned etalon to get rid of most problems. Better to use Lunt pressure tuned etalons (for example, DS modules) than trying to get good results with tilt turnable air-spaced etalons.
Attachments
Ed's LS50FHa banding.jpg
Full FOV of the 150mm F5 + LS50FHa
Ed's LS50FHa banding.jpg (295.47 KiB) Viewed 417 times
15 07 13 8h 39.png
15 07 13 8h 39.png (826.58 KiB) Viewed 417 times
banding  150 F5 LS50FHa #1+ #2  DS.png
banding 150 F5 LS50FHa #1+ #2 DS.png (1.06 MiB) Viewed 417 times
banding 2 150mmF5 LS50FHa.png
banding 2 150mmF5 LS50FHa.png (553.3 KiB) Viewed 417 times
banding 150mm F5 LS50FHa #2.png
banding 150mm F5 LS50FHa #2.png (778.92 KiB) Viewed 417 times
LS50FHa #2 3.png
LS50FHa #2 3.png (618.4 KiB) Viewed 417 times
sweet spot 150F5 + LS50FHa.png
sweet spot 150F5 + LS50FHa.png (402.65 KiB) Viewed 417 times
"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by marktownley » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:41 pm

A TZ3 is on my shopping list too...
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http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by Valery » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:02 pm

marktownley wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:41 pm
A TZ3 is on my shopping list too...
What the etalon you will use with this TZ3 ?
"Solar H alpha activity is the most dynamic and compelling thing you can see in a telescope, so spend accordingly." (c) Bob Yoesle.

Largest full size 185 - 356mm Dielectric Energy Rejection Filters (D-ERF) by ARIES Instruments.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:52 pm

50mm x -500mm <----- this one seems like it will be something I personally include with the mod-kit, specifically for people with F/10 refractors.
After a period of endless insomnia, I am now nearly convinced that F/10 refractors is the way to hammer out the first test .

https://www.newport.com/p/KPC064AR.14



Valery, i have been told things dont work many times in the past. I have always figured out the problems, and FIXED THEM..

The results from your ls35-mod is not a unique, single instance to just you. Stu's(carbon60) results are a second instance, and he has double stacked theoretically making the chance for problems even greater. Yet he clearly has no problems....

These two , noted as amazing results, imply factual replication. Replication is the only method to verify theory of functionality. All discoveries , must scientifically be replicated by other users for it to be a truly functioning acceptable discovery/theory.

Your pictures, sourced from some other user using an LS50FHA does not conclusively put an end to the ls50C Mod kit. Some of those images are VERY acceptable, and would be gladly cherished by many individuals stuck with a 60-mm aperture, and non-disposable income..

Sacrifices are already understood. Standards of absolute perfection, should never be expected of a "entry level", "toy class" optical filter.

I will continue to pursue this mod-kit for the LS50C, because I see everything for a different reality behind the situations. I know I can find the solutions to all problems that I encounter. I always have. The methodology, is to develop "standardization". Which is why we all must agree one the first focal ratio to "evaluate and study"

Pressure tuned etalons and solid etalons are not immune to the known problems and variables.
i have owned two lunt pressure tuner modules . BOTH of them equally shared the exact same problems you speak of, while In their native unmodified OTA. I have also owned 6 pst mod kits that all displayed these symptoms as well, (some incredibly bad!) The probblems typically were avoided at extremely high magnifications. (this is why people mod their systems, high magnification. Not full disk, and not wide field.)
See topic here about another users pressure tuned mod, and the first apparent problem. It was "fixed" to an acceptable degree and the user gained a much appreciated mindset. His gain was not large, just 50mm to 90mm. But he was very happy with the results and so were other users. viewtopic.php?t=19238

I worked around the same problems with the lunt pressure tuner mod-kit i made, and it delivered phenomenal results. See this animation I made ? There is nothing unacceptable about it.

Image

I had dozens of people asking me to sell them that very modified scope, and I regret the day I did agree to sell.

The results I achieved with a modkit using a 120mm objectieve were WAY beyond anything the factory 50mm and 60mm ota could ever produce. I Used time and faith, that was it. I did not feel I wasted one cent, and the effort was not at all wasted. I learned what I needed and I the was able to replicate the results for other people, just like I intend here with the LS50C. I felt very accomplished and satisfied, and I regret selling that modified scope.

If the user is a perfectionist, then they should begin a treatment program to work that behavioral disorder out and dissolve it from their system of mentality; As a perfectionist, problems are automatically regarded with pure and total dysfunction , complete failure. To me, problems are equal to opportunity. Something that can be changed with hopeful optimism, the opportunity to complete a goal and make something better!

The story continues by People whome have owned bad quarks, and bad quarks are still getting shipped after ALL the complaints. Bad psts are still getting shipped as well. Thus it is totally reasonable to assume and conclude that bad Lunt products will also be getting shipped as well. There is nothing a user can do to change a manufactured item that was delivered with bad parts.

These etalon devices we uses, are not intented and never were intended to be perfect. The reason, with all honestly, these devices are considered toys. If you are a perfectionist and You want a perfect etalon, that is not considered a "toy" then you are going to pay the $10,000 premiums for exactly .08nm. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "toy" etalons are not rated with an exact scientific bandpass FWHM, and are ALL rated for "less than 1A", or "less than 0.7a".

The quark does not even get a bandpass number associated with it, because @daystar they just does not care, The engineers know the device is a toy and does not need scrutiny. It just has to work at 656.28nm. (perfectionism is completely ignored, and not sought after)

You know, the coronado solar max iii series that literally just came out this year, produces the same known problems right out of the box too in its native designed objective mounted position attached to the manufacturer supplied scope? You would think after 3 generations of producing the etalons there would of been a fix for it? The reason is because again, these are "toys". Perfectionism is completely ignored because it is not possible on a mass produced item intended to be a source of profit.

Many people already own these ls50c etalons; so this is not a waste of money for these owners. I will never be a perfectionist, because it is the most unattractive quality a human can perpetuate. I accept sacrifice and I accept the capabilities for what they are.

All the same exact rules apply here to the LS50C mod, as did the pst mod. You either got shipped a good one or you didnt. I can confidently say that most etalon users do not have the luxury or desire to fish out the good etalons from the bad. This is why acceptable sacrifices are to be made by users that chose to mod their system.

We did not mod because we have nothing better to do. We mod because we desire higher magnification without paying the $10,000 cost that other users flaunt around like some guy driving a Ferrari just 1 mile a week.

So these problems indeed do exist, i wont deny it. These problems were ALWAYS there, and ALWAYS came right out of the box from the manufacturer. Some of these problems just mean the device was a poor quality control example. Manufacturing of that ONE particular etAlon. This is called "inconsistency".

you know why the PST mod is stuck at f/10? Because thats where engineers could consistently make the toy produce its "ideal" 656.28nm on band image with out thermal drift. We all know if you put it in a f/5 scope, it will not perform well. The same standardization will be true for the LS50C etalon, it will have a very specific lens arrangement where it has ideal operation. The standardization of negative 200 focal ratio for the pst mod to operate is also a well known standard. Again, this will be true for the LS50c mod. There will be a negative focal length that must be figured out to produce the ideal results, and that focal length will never change..

Now knowning the focal sensitivity of the operation parameters, in regard to more issues with these system. We also have to account for the possibility some user's have the incorrect placement of the lenses in-front of and behind the etalon.
Lens placement for hydrogen alpha, is a very exact demand.

Another issue, Just 2mm of sag in your focuser drawtube and you got a bigger more amplified etalon problem! This is how sensitive the device is to not being square. So extension tubes will ALWAYS be recommended in the focuser.

Some users have 24 inches of extensions sticking out of the back of their scopes. These users personally accept this as a way the product was intended to function, or to just prevent issues, after they spent $15,000 on "perfection".?


Image



Now, In regards to other devices being better and types of etalons being prioritized over another. You know, there is a paragraph on baader-planetarium.com that says the daystar quark is impossible and should not work, that baader planetarium engineers cant figure it out...... Read it yourself here.
baader planetarium quark response.PNG
baader planetarium quark response.PNG (158.25 KiB) Viewed 388 times

There are dozens of people(Valery, yourself included) using a quark on this very forum and it seems like they are working to me....

There is now officially a clear a misunderstanding between user's, etalon operations, functional issues, and perfectionist standards. The inventor of the quark (Jen Winters) herself has stated that double stacking a mica etalon does nothing....... Again we have an expert , with a misunderstanding in device functionality. MANY users on this very forum that clearly prove her wrong and also disagree with her statement.

The mod kit will be for high magnification, and i will post images of the LS50C "impossible" functionality soon enough.

I have already concluded this device works, so I will just disregard any perfectionist's theories, and just disregard many more disagreements here.


I Thank you for your destructive feedback Valery, it feels great every-time you throw it at me and just motivates me to prove my theories , and to discover solutions to the new opportunity presented.

Now, If anyone can offer constructive feedback, and maybe some team collaborated-effort; I will thank you even more :). I may even reward you.
Last edited by TheSkyBurner on Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:16 am

Valery..... you are having more conflicting words when I find more and more of your previous posts and statements.....
Here you state that the 50mm etalon mod is "JAW DROPPING" on 150mm scopes.

Why is everything suddenly perfect when a aries solar part that you sell and endorse is involved, but when other people try to doit suddenly its impossible , impractical and full of problems....


Now I am absolutley positive that the LS50C mod is definitely everything I say it will be. Thanks for this "accidental revelation" Valery...

viewtopic.php?t=11707

"Re: Lunt LS50FHA Mod posible?
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Post by Valery » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:57 am


With our Aries solar kit the LS50F mod work extremely well. All are <0.7A and double stack is fantastic. You all already saw the pictures by me which were taken with SS and DS LS50F mod in a 150mm telescope. Also, single stack shows full sun disk with wealth of surface details and prominences around the limb. And the view through 150mm scope and binoviewer is nothing than jaw dropping or massive drooling."



Now here is more evidence, of a LS50 mod in working order , this one is double stacked with a daystar quark.
This first picture, using a 150mm f/8 aperture with televue 4x powermate. This directly implies telecentric functionality..

I must say, that is rather incredible, and yes JAW DROPPING. Just one amazing example of the upgrade from a 50mm standard ota and a clearly successful mod.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_chaser/37105931316
Image


Here is an INCREDIBLE video behind a 153mm F/8 with the same ls50 televue 4x powermate quark mod.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_ch ... otostream/
By some weird and serendipitous coincidence this video was captured the same exact day I captured my loop prominence video. September 10th 2017. This is my avatar! We were both capturing the same exact event, a the same exact time!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_ch ... otostream/


Image





Here is another single processed image with the 153 f/8 ls50/quark mod behind a telecentric
Image
Last edited by TheSkyBurner on Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:32 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:34 am

wow, yea that is double stacked. No sign of the double limb

image description
Prominence on October 7 2017 with Quark-Lunt DS D153_F8 4xTV <-------4x powermate implies the use of a telecentric and not a collimator

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_ch ... otostream/

Image

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:44 am

Wow I am so glad I found this photonchaser guy,

Valery, I truly am sorry for constantly opposing you. But I have to defend myself and my own interests from the perpetual discouragement I receive.

It looks like my instincts were indeed 100% correct(they always are) and this system is working well beyond my expectations.

My insomnia did great!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_ch ... otostream/
Image

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:55 am

OKAY THIS JUST GOT BETTER, THE PHOTONCHASER GUY IS A SOLARCHAT USER!

His user name is FeroT. This is now complete and Total serendipity, with my discovery of yet another "ferret".


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23051

picture of his setup when he had the ls50 stacked with a quark AND pst etalon.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/photon_ch ... 644159956/
Image

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by Valery » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:00 am

Apollo,

You didn't read my post with enough attention. I told exactly the following: without a special selection one can't WARRANT that the system will work fine. If only the etalon you do plan to use in such a configuration has a bit more than absolute minimal CWL shift to the red wing, then it will require too much tilt to come to H-a core and so, will produce the banding of the swet spot and instead of a round sweet spot you will get a more or less curved band which is in Ha and the rest FOV will be not. See the very first picture in my post. This picture shows how the randomly taken LS50FHa etalon works in a collimated beam. It require too much tilt to come to Ha core.

The only single LS50FHa etalon which worked OK was my very first etalon. That time I think that all the LS50FHa are the same and will work same OK. But the reality was and is quite different. I have tested may be 10 or 12 such etalons and only one of them was OK for required minimal tilt, but it was too wide (may be 0,9A) and of a very low contrast. Practically useless. All other etalons have too much CWL shift red and require too much tilt and produce unacceptable sweet spot banding.

The images you saw as good examples of my works were taken in a DS and within the banded sweet spot. They are quite small vs full FOV. Your intention to get a large 46mm useful field is a dream, no more. You will not get such a field in a collimated scheme. Lunt 152mm scope use a larger, 60mm clear aperture etalon and still have about 1/2 to 2/3 sun disk in Ha and the rest FOV is out of Ha.

You can get a full FOV in Ha and more or less uniform (depends of the etalon own uniformity) in a telecentric scheme. However, for this you need one of two cases:

1. Very rare luck that your 50C etalon is very narrow, very uniform and require no or very minimal tilt to come to the Ha core at the F/D of your TZ.
2. You need carefully select such an etalon up to the moment you will find an etalon according to requirements from case 1.

Even if you will get such a perfectly matched to your needs etalon you will see that it works differently in diffeernt weather conditions.

Instead of all these hassles I just found a good sample of Quark - uniform enough and narrow enough. It does not require even a star diagonal - just put it in the back of a SCT or any telescope F/7 to F/11 and you are ready to go. Depends of a camera used you will or will not need a focal reducer. This is much easier and cheaper than the way you offering to try. Been there done that! I can compare from the first hands.

And if I will show the comparision images taken with LS35 in a telecentric mode and images taken with Quark, anyone will immediately see which is better. And how much better and for which money and efforts invested. The only competitor to a good Quark is a very good selected PST etalon in a collimated scheme with it's one optics. But still not as good and with narrower FOV.


Valery
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by marktownley » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:46 pm

Valery wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:02 pm
marktownley wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:41 pm
A TZ3 is on my shopping list too...
What the etalon you will use with this TZ3 ?
I will use it with my Quark (without the 4.3x telecentric) and also want to try it with my CaK setup.
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:09 pm

Again, I will just disregard your discouragement valery, i understood what you wrote very clearly. Only few people have the money to keep buying and reselling etalons to find a magical unicorn.

There is no such thing in the optical market as "hand selecting" an item.. It is not an option.

Now Lets put this into the reality that it is really is here. You are buying a premade product. Something new or used, and then using this item to find that does not suit your PERSONAL STANDARDS. You are then returning it to the dealer/seller with a complaint, or reselling it to some other user based on the fact it failed the perfectionism view.


Again, these etalons are "toys" and NONE of them are warranted with any standardization. Your parts are not typical of any user situation.


The lunt etalons have greater standards than any coronado and any quark etalon. They will be less than .75angstroms, as advertised. They are a "double stacking filter" as advertised. they are made for "front objective mounting on a 50mm aperture" as advertised.

It is "tilt tuned" as advertised. . There is no "requirement" of standard tilt measurements, because it is different for every etalon it is double stacked to. I would never want an etalon that had zero degree onband performance.

It has a "sweet spot" as all etalons do. There is no denying that.

So whatever guarantee you are looking for, does not exist to any mass produced etalon product. (it never did)


Therefore, this mod kit will not be for you valery and that is all this means. The mod kit is still going to get delievered, and it is still going to be used by the people that purchase it.

Some users are going to get phenomenal results and some users are might less than ideal results. This is not a problem with the mod kit itself, this is just the nature of the etalons and this nature has always existed on all parts.



What would you say if you personally delivered a full size erf filter that was sub par to the other ones due to a manufacturing error? Because it is likely to happen eventually.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:53 pm

I will no longer post anymore defensive remarks for my project to this thread until I provide personally acquired images. Free speech is great, but when its nothing but negativity over and over again by the same people it becomes a tool of derailment.

Where is the encouragement for this project?

I use nothing but honesty in my imaging practices, and posting practices. I never hide flaws, I never have bias toward one product over another. I will not supply images with "flats" to hide flaws. I will never post images that are stacked to "hide flaws" Anything you see me post will be actual imaging performance and not something that I conjured up with extensive digital software processing enhancement.

I will not cheat anybody out of an opportunity that i know exists with good purpose, I will not quit because of people with impossible standards telling me something will not work. I will use my best efforts to get this project clearly understandable, with my own evidence of functionality. I will not hide the flaws. If i find a problem, i will make them very visible.

If my images are dirty or full of flaws, its because of one simple fact. Astro-imaging is always full of flaws/dust/distortion/ etc, and I will not hide this. I am not afraid to make these flaws visible for all to see, because i do not care how professional you are. Your images have dust bunnies and areas of distortion too.

If I want something NEW done in the astronomy field I have to do everything myself because the reality here is there will NEVER be any agreements or cooperation on anything , and there will never be any supportive framework for new devices. I have relied on people in the past and let them do their own things. They decide to stab me in the back, Repeatedly.

Elitists have total control of the entire astro-photography industry and it is clear that their perfectionist views damage the hobby industry for amateur's seeking to create new tools and developments. These elitists want nothing changed to their industry.

Never expect any support or cooperation from a "professional elitist".

i thank anybody that chooses to support what I am trying to accomplish. If you do not have anything constructive to say, that's great. Go about your day continuously giving up hope and hiding your flaws.

This is my final project before I die from cancer, and I do not intend on failing or quitting this development before the inevitable time of my end.

I will return with my data .



(more conflicting information from valery using a mere F/5 ratio, i guess he forgot his own capabilities.)
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/4551 ... telescope/
http://solarchatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12582

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:58 am

So here is a peak at how simple this really is going to be.

If anybody wants to help, all you have to do is help. <----(thank you for the f/8 suggestion Ken Harrison!)


If someone wants to poke holes in this; I encourage you to draw something with ms paintbrush.exe, it requires zero skill and wont cost you a single cent.
If there are no diagrams to follow, then you get nothing to follow. If you help, then your name is written in stone as a person that helped!

90mm f/8.8 refractor to f/32 four element
f8.8 to f32 collimator system.PNG
f8.8 to f32 collimator system.PNG (29.05 KiB) Viewed 307 times

150mm F8 refractor to f/32 two element
150 f8 to f32 collimator system.PNG
150 f8 to f32 collimator system.PNG (24.42 KiB) Viewed 307 times
160mm F10 refractor to f/30 two element
160 f10 to f30 collimator system.PNG
160 f10 to f30 collimator system.PNG (24.38 KiB) Viewed 305 times
203mm F10 SCT to F/30 two element
203mm f10 to f30 collimator system.PNG
203mm f10 to f30 collimator system.PNG (24.6 KiB) Viewed 304 times

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:14 am

203mm f/10 SCT - five element relay ratio 25mm optics to 50mm optics, zero magnfication final factor. :shock:
203mm f10 to f30 collimator system 5 element zero mag.PNG
203mm f10 to f30 collimator system 5 element zero mag.PNG (33.49 KiB) Viewed 299 times

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by MalVeauX » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:29 pm

What about a potential modular piece that can accept most popular filters ranging from the PST etalon to something like the Lunt 35 & 50 or even Calcium filters like the Lunt CaK module and/or PST CaK filters? A universal USA available modular filter chamber maybe?

Very best,

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by marktownley » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:43 pm

TheSkyBurner wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:58 am
So here is a peak at how simple this really is going to be.

If anybody wants to help, all you have to do is help. <----(thank you for the f/8 suggestion Ken Harrison!)


If someone wants to poke holes in this; I encourage you to draw something with ms paintbrush.exe, it requires zero skill and wont cost you a single cent.
If there are no diagrams to follow, then you get nothing to follow. If you help, then your name is written in stone as a person that helped!

90mm f/8.8 refractor to f/32 four element
f8.8 to f32 collimator system.PNG


150mm F8 refractor to f/32 two element
150 f8 to f32 collimator system.PNG

160mm F10 refractor to f/30 two element
160 f10 to f30 collimator system.PNG

203mm F10 SCT to F/30 two element
203mm f10 to f30 collimator system.PNG
Hey Apollo,

Just an observation; the first 50mm diameter lens you have sat 50mm from the focal point. Wouldn't that lens focal length have to be the same focal ratio as the objective lens to give a collimated beam?

Mark
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:07 pm

marktownley wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:43 pm


Hey Apollo,

Just an observation; the first 50mm diameter lens you have sat 50mm from the focal point. Wouldn't that lens focal length have to be the same focal ratio as the objective lens to give a collimated beam?

Mark
Mark, I am completely uncertain which Is why I have to try attempt this using the fall and fail approach. If just one of these relay calculation works then all of them are going to work. If it does not work on any of them, it will never work with this method and I can check it off the list and then move on to try another method.

Here is how I am looking at this first approach. When I put the (A)50mm diameter lens, 50mm away from the prime objective focal length it operates like an eyepiece with a 50mm focal length. This first lens (A) will be operating via "eyepiece projection" with a specific magnification of the prime image . The image in the eyepiece would expand to the 50mm diameter fill a 50mm aperture. However by itself this one optic create would project an "ordinary ray" converging cone shaped path.

Placing the second (B)50mm optic converts the operating setup to what is called an "a-focal relay lens array". When I started to imagine the operation of how the pst really works, it is following the exact same ideology; albeit the pst is using a negative element in front for the "eyepiece projection magnification factor". The second refocus lens applies the relay formula B / A. Currently I just do not know how to apply the calculation for negative elements to apply with the relay lens formula. Because it gives a negative magnification factor. I think this just imparts a negative realy , over a positive beam?? Perhaps a negative magnification number is how you apply the relay system inside the tube, versus outside the focuser with extensions.

The magic -200mm that pst uses, could come from the 200mm / -200mm = -1x forumula. Indicating 1:-1 (-1x)ratio which then exerts the -200mm function.

I just did basic relay formula diagrams with easily attainable singlet lenses in an attempt to match the etalon aperture, calculated to keep everything at f/30 or f/32 at the eyepiece. Based on everything I have read, The light path will always be parallel between the two relay lenses and this is what im looking for.

Now does the parallel path between the relay system require f/30 to be achieved at the ota prime focus first? Before the relay system? I have no idea.

Trial and error is my only tool at this time.


One thing I have noted in the past, if you take a 25mm eyepiece, and calculate the magnification for f/30 its about 100x.

So it is entirely possible the only rule of thumb is to keep the eyepeice projection magnification at 100x on your prime focal length. Then you send this through a 1:1 ratio relay lens. (1x mag factor)

[b This could be simplified as placing an 8mm lens at the 800mm prime focus to get f/30 (100x) magnification going through the collimating relay element[/b]. Then just apply a reduction system after the relay zone to bring magnification down.
relay 100x by 1x magnfication example.PNG
relay 100x by 1x magnfication example.PNG (34.89 KiB) Viewed 237 times

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:34 am

okay so I have some new information to work with based on the .25 degree HALF field angular diameter of the sun.
(Why are people telling me to use this .25 degree Half diameter?)
Image

Determining the magnification of the field angle is going to determine the performance of the etalon.

A 2x magnified field angle of .5 is an acceptable performance sacrifice, anything achieved or calculated below .5 degrees is exceptional and will provide greater satisfaction.

Any lens combination that calculates a field angle of .25 exactly, is considered flawless.

So, using basic F/10 standards here.

A collimator with a focal length of 500mm, and a objective lens that uses 1000mm.


Now can anybody tell me, what this formula is called? What is the answer of 2 representing when I divide 1000 / 500. Because clearly this is the same formula for eyepiece projection. IE, an eyepiece with a 500mm focal length, gives a magnification of 2.
2x field angle.PNG
2x field angle.PNG (18.02 KiB) Viewed 219 times
Using an identical collimator lens to your objective and you have zero magnification on the field angle. (perfect)
1x field angle.PNG
1x field angle.PNG (22.19 KiB) Viewed 217 times

Now seeing this 1000 x 1000 combination visibly, I do not understand why Rogerio Marcon is using a 60mm x 900mm f/15 collimator on his 150mm x 2250mm f/15 objective.

Because the field angle will be magnified by a factor of 2.5; This DOES NOT explain why rogrio marcon images are so incredible- he is using a solarmax 60 etalon with central obstruction.. (2.5 x 0.25 = 0.625)
Last edited by TheSkyBurner on Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:24 am

So now knowing that rogerio marcon images come out so incredible with a 2.5x magnfication of his field angle, we can certainly apply this fact to all systems that also magnify the field angle by 2.5. It would appear that the strict field angle rule is more flexible than some users tend to think. Or, its just their perfectionist point of view denying allowable sacrifice.. Ill admit, Maybe i am the one missing something here, does the field angle change at f/15?

rogerio marcon systsem 2.5x field angle.PNG
rogerio marcon systsem 2.5x field angle.PNG (22.4 KiB) Viewed 215 times
Here is an image, from Rogerio Marcon using an LS50 etalon on a 200mm x 3000mm f/15 scope. Now we can almost certainly conclude he is using a 50mm x 750mm f/15 collimator to match that 50mm aperture etalon, and that f/15 bjective focal length . So lets math this... 3000mm / 750mm = 4!

So, here are TWO example's where there is 4x magnification applied to the .25 field angle, and the image is flawless. So who is wrong? The guys saying you need a field angle of .5 or less? Or the guy who is taking amazing images using a field angle of 1?

This GROSS inconsistency needs an explanation now. Because if this is what 4x the field angle looks like, Then somebody needs a good kick in the behind for making the mistake of perpetually telling people that a magnified field angle is unacceptable. I would gladly accept this result all day long!

Image
Image
rogerio marcon systsem 4x field angle.PNG
rogerio marcon systsem 4x field angle.PNG (22.19 KiB) Viewed 215 times
Last edited by TheSkyBurner on Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:39 am

Rogerio marcon, Field angle magnfied by 4 times! MOST incredible result, equal to or better than anything Valery has posted

SO, i dont need any more evidence. The ls50C mod is nothing short of incredible, especially when perfection is not an option.

200mm x 3000mm LS50 etalon.
Rogerio-Marcon-AR1899_2013-11-15_1384543880.jpg
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Rogerio-Marcon-AR1967_2014-01-30_1391123010.jpg
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Rogerio-Marcon-NOAA11875_2013-10-24_1382654790.jpg
Rogerio-Marcon-NOAA11875_2013-10-24_1382654790.jpg (720.59 KiB) Viewed 210 times


Rogerios 150mm x 2250mm system using 60mm x 900mm collimator.
post-2614-0-88966400-1360614711.jpg
post-2614-0-88966400-1360614711.jpg (189.54 KiB) Viewed 212 times

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:58 am

So after a couple hours of reading, I have determined the pst is using an "image-space telecentric"


Collimator, is a rather "generic" term being thrown around the hydrogen alpha community because it has two seperate meanings.

A collimator can have two functions. A: make a beam parallel or B: make a beam smaller.

As pulled from the definition of collimator "A collimator is a device that narrows a beam of particles or waves. To narrow can mean either to cause the directions of motion to become more aligned in a specific direction (i.e., make collimated light or parallel rays), or to cause the spatial cross section of the beam to become smaller (beam limiting device)"

There is also a bit of laziness it would seem around the definition of "telecentric", as this is directly related to a beam being "collimated", or parallel.
As pulled from the definition of "telecentric" chief rays or oblique rays that pass through the center of an aperture stop which are parallel to the optical axis in front of or behind the system.

So by the very definition of collimation and telecetric being combined. The chief rays are a converging cone coming out of the objective before the first relay optic. When they enter the first relay, They are "collimated" to a "telecentric" parallel beam which only extend to the the second relay lens. The parallel rays enter the second relay lens, and are re-converted to a second converging cone.

No matter how much we argue about this now, the pst hydrogen alpha etalon is placed inside of a parallel beam created in-between two relay lenses.. This parallel beam, is by definition telecentric in that all the rays are going parallel compared to the converging objective output.

There are three types of telecentrics. "object space telecentric" "image space telecentric" and "a-focal double-telecentric" You can visualize their operation via the image below.
three types of telecentric.png
three types of telecentric.png (25.82 KiB) Viewed 191 times
The type installed within a PST is an image space telecentric, because the rays that output at the refocus lens are not parallel. If the rays exiting the refocus lens were parallel, the pst would be considered an a-focal double telecentric.



There is also a multi-element advanced telecentric system designed to correct wavelength's. These have multiple lens groupings which act as corrective optics, before the telecentric output is established..

The baader planetarium TZ system, is an advanced multi-element telecentric designed to correct h-alpha wavelength before establishing its parallel output

afocal relay lens telecentric operation.PNG
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double telecentric.png
double telecentric.png (87.42 KiB) Viewed 193 times
A second diagram for the internal focal plane of a double telecetric. The two focal lenghts of both relay lenses must be spaced to meet at the central point between the relay system, which is located at the aperture stop in the below image.
Image
multi element collimated telecentric designs .png
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:46 am

Some information which favor the a-focal bi-celentric over the image-space telecentric. I imagine that using a bi-telecentric will potentially eliminate all banding issues caused by tilt.

"bi-telecentricity assures that the ray fan axis strikes an optical filter normal to its surface, thus preserving the optical band-pass over its entire surface area"

"A bi-telecentric lens interface provides image side telecentricity which ensures that the optical bandpass is homogeneous over the entire filter surface which delivers even illumination to the imaging sensor" I.e. no banding and zero loss of contrast.

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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:22 am

So here is my AHA moment.

This information coming right from the nasa patent .

right there, in the nasa document. TRIAL AND ERROR OF THE OPTICAL SELECTION AND ETALON PARAMETERS!!!


How many times have i mentioned trial and error in my posts. I am approaching this entire mod-kit exactly the way a real scientist would.



etalon trial and error.PNG
etalon trial and error.PNG (205.75 KiB) Viewed 147 times

Even the schematic in the patent is describing an a-focal projection into a double telecentric, and it looks nearly identical to what I have first theorized with a multi element model in my own diagrams.

That a-focal projection, is an image-space telecentric,


Can I get anymore accurate?
go apollo go.PNG
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:01 am

This is where this gets incredibly interesting. The scope used in the patent. 160mm x 200mm F/1.25.

F/1.25 is like a flame thrower at 160mm diameter. This objective lens is equivalent to a child with a magnifying glass burning ants,
they do not describe energy rejection so just imagine the death rays that etalon was exposed to.
super short h-alpha telescope in patent.PNG
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Re: Any interest in this part? LS50C modkit

Post by TheSkyBurner » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:50 am

So i managed to track down 90% of the supplies needed for this project to become a reality. I do have the ls5c etalon, but it is currently in switzerland with Beat Kohler to make sure the mod fitting is flawless.

Baader planetarium TZ-3 is huge! (very expensive, Just under $500.00 and unfoturnatley as Christian Viladrich has already concluded this probably isnt going to work for the ls50 mod so dont buy one!)
IMG_6601.JPG
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IMG_6602.jpg
IMG_6602.jpg (110.21 KiB) Viewed 108 times


75mm baader planetarium D-erf for sub aperture energy rejection. (better than nothing!, it costs $1800 for the 180mm unmounted. I paid $210 for this, including this mount.
IMG_6603.jpg
IMG_6603.jpg (61.99 KiB) Viewed 108 times
160mm x 1600mm F/10 objective with magnesium fluoride coating.. $325.00 , Going to mount this in a truss frame. (impossible to find a 160mm objective, especially at this price.)

IMG_6605.JPG
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IMG_6606.JPG
IMG_6606.JPG (66.32 KiB) Viewed 108 times


Newport(MKS instruments) 50.8mm x -500mm negative PCV with newport LT20-F mount (the mount is easily integratedable to the etalon)
https://www.newport.com/p/KPC064AR.16 lens with newport mount, with 650nm coating this is the perfect collimator for an F/10 hydrogen alpha system using a 50mm air spaced etalon) ( assuming the converging cone is not limited by the 50mm aperture of the collimator)

https://www.newport.com/p/LT20-F
I will only be able to use 49.3mm of the aperture due to this lens cell. It has the biggest opening of all threaded newport optic mounts. This Will still be functioning @f/10.1 so almost nothing is lost. (minuscule sacrifice , you will not find a threaded optical cell that utilizes all 50mm aperture without custom parts, remember nothing will ever be perfect "off the shelf"!)
IMG_6604.JPG
IMG_6604.JPG (67.92 KiB) Viewed 108 times


I think i may add a baader planetarium reinforced 3nm hydrogen alpha filter before the front of the TZ-3 so that I have the absolute highest quality ITF filter humanly possible for the energy reduced output. Because I have the baader -D-erf filter, there will be zero IR/UV leaks on the 3nm filter and the beam will emit a purity controlled 656nm light and nothing else. This will then force all requirements the a rear etalon would demand.

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