Daystar DS 60

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Daystar DS 60

Post by atlguy »

The less than optimal image is at least 50% operator skill.
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by DeepSolar64 »

It looks like you have captured the mottling of the chromosphere.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Hey there! What camera did you use for this? Also, how did you process it?


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by atlguy »

I used a ZWO 120MC-S set to mono 8 bit. About 5 msec exposure with almost no gain. about 300 images took the best 20% Autostakkert then Registax Wavelet. A little sharpening with GIMP.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

I would totally avoid wavelet sharpening, it can introduce a lot of noise. Have you tried ImPPG?


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by atlguy »

marktownley wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:20 pm I would totally avoid wavelet sharpening, it can introduce a lot of noise. Have you tried ImPPG?
I did try that after the wavelet did not seem to do much. I'll try again without wavelet.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Post up a picture straight aftwer stacking, no process ing at all so we can see what you're working with here.


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Daystar DS 60 No processing

Post by atlguy »

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marktownley wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:51 pm Post up a picture straight aftwer stacking, no process ing at all so we can see what you're working with here.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by rsfoto »

atlguy wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:46 pm I used a ZWO 120MC-S set to mono 8 bit. About 5 msec exposure with almost no gain. about 300 images took the best 20% Autostakkert then Registax Wavelet. A little sharpening with GIMP.
Hi,

Please upload your video ? to somewhere so we can look at the original material

BTW, a One Shot Colour camera ASI 120MC-S is not the best for H-alpha due to the very low sensitivity in the H-alpha channel.

Below the QE for the different colours but the unknown is how does the UV/IR filter influence the transmission too.

A One Shot Colour has a Bayer Matrix RGGB which means only 25% of the pixels are really active in the red and there according to the diagram you have a sensitivity of about 48 %.

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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Have you tried playing with the tunimg dial on the scope to see which setting reveals the best detaial? It won't necessarily be the 12 oclock (straight up) position. There's been an active region for a week or so now which should have picked up quite easily, I wonder if your scope is off band? Have you seen any proms visually with it?


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by Carbon60 »

Certainly does look like a tuning issue. Are you able to remove the second etalon and practice tuning in single stack mode until you get a feel for it?

Stu.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Carbon60 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:45 am Are you able to remove the second etalon and practice tuning in single stack mode until you get a feel for it?
It's a Daystar Stu, it's called DS impying 'double stack' even though there's only one etalon. Apparently the one etalon has the same performance as a double stack; it's all marketing guff - a bit like the Coronado solarmax70, which would imply a 70mm etalon, is, infact only a 60mm etalon on a 70mm ota. :roll:


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by Rusted »

Humour alert! :?

Well, we've completely trashed any confidence the OP might once have had in their telescope, their camera and their processing skills! :lol:
Should we go around to their place and beat them with a baseball bat just to "teach them a lesson?" :o

I don't doubt they could have a lot of fun with this equipment if they completely avoid Registax.

I used the ASI120MC for ages and captured enough surface detail and prominences to encourage me to continue towards basic competence.
There are lots of users out there thoroughly enjoying using this camera. Moreover you get to see real colour on your capture screen.
Who cares about sensitivity in the red? There's plenty of light in the sun. :cool:

Try Autostakkert AS!2 or AS!3 so that video to still image processing soon becomes second nature.
Seriously! If I can do it, then so can the OP :D

Then you open ImPPG and gently massage the detail out of your still image WITHOUT CHANGING THE STOCK SETTINGS.
Just play with the cursor on the graph in the box on the right and watch your image change. Gently does it!

Later on, you can gently increase the settings but mostly they will just over-sharpen and produce ugly artefacts.

Keep it gentle and keep it real. Above all: Enjoy the trip! ;)


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

No offence meant to atlguy and apologies if it comes across that way I was being cynical about Daystar and Coronado, I could have probably got a Lunt swipe in there too ;) You get used to what the use of wavelets looks like in a solar image with experience. Good advice from Rusted above too. The only thing I would add is double check the images being saved from AS3 are in 16bit TIFF format before processing in ImPPG.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by Carbon60 »

marktownley wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:36 am
Carbon60 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:45 am Are you able to remove the second etalon and practice tuning in single stack mode until you get a feel for it?
It's a Daystar Stu, it's called DS impying 'double stack' even though there's only one etalon. Apparently the one etalon has the same performance as a double stack; it's all marketing guff - a bit like the Coronado solarmax70, which would imply a 70mm etalon, is, infact only a 60mm etalon on a 70mm ota. :roll:
Oops.....yes you are correct, Mark. Wasn’t thinking.
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by PDB »

Hi,

there are some things in the image (raw) i don't really understand.

The size of the Solar disc on the image
Solar Scout has a 930mm focal length. The ASI 120 Sensor size is 4.8x3.8 (mm). No way the solar disc will fit unless with reducer.
Did you use a reducer when catching the image?

The soft circle on the Sun's limb. That looks not normal to me. Don't know what it caused but there must be something wrong in the setup. Could be severe problems with a reducer or the size of the etalon/blocking filter to small for full disc? Does anybody know the size of the blocking filter for the SS60?

Can you show the complete imaging train?

Regards,

Paul


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi
I have one of these scopes.
First thing I would ask is what can you see visually?
Does the sun's disk change appearance when adjusting the tuning knob?

I ask this as my first one was in a bit of a state, falling apart, lots of paint flecks inside, machining swarf and objective/focuser out of alignment so the sun moved around the eyepiece when focusing but the main problem was the tuner did not work, the green light came on but blank sun disk.
I returned the scope to FLO who were very good and sent another next day.
The second was a completely different scope and gives a good image for its size and price.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by atlguy »

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Hi,
Thanks for all the comments and I take no offense. I am posting a picture from this scope posted on here from Feb that Martin_s processed in GIMP for me.
I did it in color with the MC120s. I looked at a youtube video that that suggested "better" ways to take the pictures and I tried that. And got the current results.
Yes I used a focal reducer to get the full disc.
No the image does not move around. It seems to focus fine. The band tuning does seem to make a difference but it can be hard to tell with the small image thru the 32mm eyepiece.
Yes I can see proms.
Maybe I go back to what I was doing before.
Thanks again!


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Hey! This is a nice image! That processing works well, would try same method on the raw data from your full disk image, I reckon you will pull more out than you have.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by PDB »

That a nice image and shows, nothing wrong with the scope. That's good.
Since the raw image coming out of stacking process already looks very bad only 2 possibilities left:
- Autostakkert completely screwed up the stacking ... can happen, but dont think it did. You can check this by inspecting the individudual frames from the capture.
- There is a problem with the optical train in introducing the reducer. (Correct distance? Vignetting)

Rgrds,

Paul


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by DeepSolar64 »

marktownley wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:36 am
Carbon60 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:45 am Are you able to remove the second etalon and practice tuning in single stack mode until you get a feel for it?
It's a Daystar Stu, it's called DS impying 'double stack' even though there's only one etalon. Apparently the one etalon has the same performance as a double stack; it's all marketing guff - a bit like the Coronado solarmax70, which would imply a 70mm etalon, is, infact only a 60mm etalon on a 70mm ota. :roll:
I think the Coronado SolarMax II 60 is the same way. 70mm objective. It sure looks bigger than the 60mm objective that's in my old Traq refractor. The double-stack etalon stops it down to 60mm. It's a way for Meade to make the SMII look less than the SMIII I guess. One rates up the other down. Hmmm...

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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by atlguy »

Thanks! Let me work on this and come back with new images (the next time the sun is out).


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi

Nice image and nice to see it is working well.
I think my first one had been dropped several times by couriers even though FLO had packaged it really well, it was like opening a Russian doll of boxes.
But the scope itself is just in a plastic bag in an empty box with a little foam about 10mm thick, not good.
I think it's better than my PST much more detailed, the PST has more contrast on the sun's surface but at the expense of the fine detail.
You should get some good images from it.
I haven't managed to get to grips with IMPPG yet so good luck.

Rod


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by MAURITS »

It's a start and you learn every day new experiences, keep that in your mind.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi
I have just had a read of Marty's post on processing and watched his video, wonderful stuff. :bow

solarchatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27143&p=245082&hilit=flat+frames#p245082
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJvJEoV ... e=youtu.be

So I went back to an image I took on monday and had another go at processing it using only some of Marty's tips
This image was taken with the Quark from the ss60-ds on my 6" scope with a Opticstar PL 131M camera.

It's all practice and knowledge from this site, thanks guys.
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by Carbon60 »

That’s a great image.

Stu.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Thanks Stu
It seems to me to be the lowest priced way to get reliable H alpha views.
It also seems the SS60-ds is limited by the objective and not the Quark unit.
The Quark unit is easily detachable as I found on the first scope that was sent to me, the scope was almost in two halves, it just has a simple unique fitting so needs an adapter machining for it.
I think Daystar could make a killing if they could produce the Quark unit in a 2" fit for around £500, especially if they all perform like this one.

Nice thing is if I go on my hols I can just put the quark back in the 60mm and take it with me.
The major thing for me that beats the PST is it works fine with a binocular head because of the telecentric beam.

The picture is of the Quark unit, it is held to the scope by four nylon tipped grub screws that allow you to rotate it, very simple.

I can't understand why it is not more popular.

Cheers Rod
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Think it has a smaller etalon than the Quark if memory serves. You're lucky to have got a good one Rod, the problem to me seems to be with the Daystar products is the variability in image quality they produce.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Mark
I agree with the variability, I haven't taken the Quark part apart so dont know if the etalon is smaller or just has some edge problems as it looks like it may be the same etalons but just masked off to hide this and therefore cheaper.
It does have the zonal dark light areas that most etalons have but hardly noticeable visually, just shows up when processing, I need to get into a good method of doing flats.
This is a pic I took yesterday in pretty bad hazy seeing with a cheap 0.5 reducer onto the Opticstar 1/2" chip it shows the etalon is big enough for imaging.
My quality is limited by the camera that is only able to take around 250 frames before it has download problems and the file won't open.
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi
This picture shows the same thin metal stop at the eyepiece end with just a smaller hole.
It does make me think in the Quark philosophy that It may just be a standard etalon with problems around its edge but is perfectly usable in this format of the ss60-ds.
It maybe though that once removed and used on other scopes you may find other problems in some of the units around the edge of field.

Rod
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Looks like the solar scout etalon diameter is 16mm http://www.daystarfilters.com/Scout/60Scout.shtml and the Quark has a 21mm etalon diameter. http://www.daystarfilters.com/Quark.shtml

Guess you get more solar scout etalons out of a given peice of mica than a quark etalon, which will make them cheaper, also, like you say increases the possibilities of getting more etalons out of a less uniform piece of mica.

Only downside is reduced etalon size increases vignetting with larger chips and larger field stop (longer focal length) eyepieces.

It is a lot of scope for the money if you get a good one, and the images from yours look spot on to me Rod.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Mark
That makes sense, when I take the etalon unit off the telecentric I will try and confirm that.

As the seeing was so bad today I had a go at seeing if I could get the whole sun on my 1/2" chip, no, you need a focal reducer.
What I did find though is I could get no better a raw image than atlguy who started this thread, this leads me back to the f4 objective not being that good.

On my 6" f16 I use a Pixco camera focal reducer it has the advantage of leaving the focal point at the same position unlike astronomy ones where you need more in focus. They are also made to fill a APS-C chip with little vignetting.

This leads me to a question for everyone with quarks, if I spend the money on a Quark combo am I likely to get a worse unit than the one I already have seeing the quarks are quite variable?
The only advantage I would get is a wider field of view (that is impossible on my Zeiss binocular head though) and the removal of the focal reducer.
Or would I get more benefit from a better camera?


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

RodAstro wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:30 pm This leads me to a question for everyone with quarks, if I spend the money on a Quark combo am I likely to get a worse unit than the one I already have seeing the quarks are quite variable?

Or would I get more benefit from a better camera?
Regards the first question I wish I could say you'd get a good Quark, but, who knows, roll a dice! Buy from somewhere with a returns policy. I bought an Mg Quark from FLO earlier in the year and it was not fit for purpose, so, it went back and the guys at FLO were absolutely great about it.

A new camera is more predictable though, something with 5.6um pixels is good with the Quark / Daystar focal ratios, eg 174 chipped cameras.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Thanks Mark

that sort of confirms what I was thinking with the Quarks, I ordered the ss60-ds from FLO for that exact reason and glad I did, although the first scope was not questionable (it looked like it had been dropped or banged about a lot in transit somewhere) FLO were very good.

As for the camera the camera I am using, Opticstar PL 131M, it has 5.2um pixels so close enough, light throughput is the issue as exposure times slows the camera down, so a more sensitive camera with USB3 to take advantage of it would be needed.
Sensitivity seems to be an unspecified comparable quantity with cameras, it seems user views are the most useful here.

Rod


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi all
Just a little update on the Quark unit.
I have always had problems with slight vignetting when using the bino head on the end of the quark unit.
This vignetting was just a random dark area to one side if the view. After going through all the optical alignment and bolting everything up solid I found the vignetting was caused by an inherent problem with the design of all Quark units not just the ss-60ds.

The units are in two distinct parts, the red etalon part and the black telecentric part. The two parts are screwed together and then locked in place by a small anti tamper screw, it is this screw that is the problem.
Instead of the two parts being screwed together tightly and then the screw placement is drilled and taped and the screw is then fixed at this point, the black telecentric part has a series of tapped holes all around its thread and the unit is then screwed together until it is tight then backed off till the hole in the etalon part matches with the nearest taped hole in the telecentric unit and the screw is fitted.
The problem is that this leaves the two parts loose on the threads and the extra weight of the bino head or a heavy camera causes the two parts to bend apart leaving the etalon and everything after it out of alignment.
Easy fix is to just remove the screw and tighten the two parts together as was done on the original Quarks and leave the screw out.

After removing the screw I found the Etalon is in fact Just a standard 21mm quark etalon stopped down to 16mm at the rear to get around some edge problems with the mica as I thought it would be. Interestingly my friends very good standard Quark only has an 18mm output due to a similar metal stop at the rear.
The telecentric lenses look to be the same as the standard Quark as well.

I hope this is useful to some who may encounter this problem

Rod
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SS-60ds telecentric2.jpg
SS-60ds telecentric2.jpg (78.94 KiB) Viewed 5532 times
SS-60ds telecentric.jpg
SS-60ds telecentric.jpg (81.34 KiB) Viewed 5532 times
SS-60ds etalon.jpg
SS-60ds etalon.jpg (95.01 KiB) Viewed 5532 times


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marios i. »

Nice!


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi

Just a couple of pics from late on this evening of the small active region taken just under twenty mins apart with the removed SS-60DS Quark on my 6" F15 refractor.
you can really see how quickly things change in these active areas.
Sorry about the orientation change I was messing with the camera.

Rod
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TS_04_25_17_46_51_g4_ap1550 IMPPG PSP9.jpg
TS_04_25_17_46_51_g4_ap1550 IMPPG PSP9.jpg (46.21 KiB) Viewed 5352 times
TS_04_25_18_06_47_g4_ap1530 IMPPG PSP9.jpg
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Zeiss with Quark and Opticstar PL-131M.jpg
Zeiss with Quark and Opticstar PL-131M.jpg (91.41 KiB) Viewed 5352 times


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by DeepSolar64 »

A 6" F15 refractor! old-school awesome! Who makes it? One that long I hope it is housed in a fixed observatory. Chromatic Aberration must be pretty low at that focal length. I bet it gives wonderful views.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Great pic Rod! C'mon, I think everyone wants to see a picture of that frac!


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by Montana »

Fabulous picture of the AR :bow :hamster:

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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi
Since altguy started this thread I have had several goes at taking an image with my ss60-DS with little luck.
Yesterday evening I put the scope back together as the sun had gone behind next doors house and used the ss60 in the front garden.
I know the quark unit works ok as I have been using it in a strange configuration on my 6" f15 refractor.

Anyway I was struggling to get a good image one of the problems I have is when the image has any detail at low magnification with a 32mm eyepiece is it is to bright. The image is pretty useless with anything above a 25mm eyepiece.
So I decided to try and stop down the objective using filter adapter rings.
Well I got down to 33mm and the image was far superior with lots of surface detail, the proms became more apparent against the now black background and I also got to 10mm eyepiece before it all became soft.
A good result so today I had a go at imaging again, the more the scope was stopped down the better, the best so far below taken with the 33mm stop, seeing was bad as it was taken just after midday.
Rest of the setup was a ASI174 with a 0.5X reducer lens in the 1.25 camera nosepiece so working around 0.7X.
I used AS!3 1000 frames with 75 percent used, shapend in ImPPG then light and dark areas flattened and final colour in Paint Shop Pro9.

Any ideas?

Cheers Rod
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

Probably about as good as you're going to get tbh Rod, especially given you're running at 33mm aperture.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Mark
I agree
Because of the Daystar etalon needing the telecentric beam or f30 to work well Daystar need a very fast lens to achieve a full disk.
I am gusing the lens is probably a 60mm binocular lens going by its f ratio so is going to be limited.
Also when imaging I notice the suns image moves around the field in a circle when focusing so not perfectly aligned in any position.
I will have a look at the focuser and see if there is any way to adjust this but don't have much hope.

Cheers Rod


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by daslolo »

that's impressive for the price and i couldn't agree more: highly moddable, good view. why isn't this more popular?

have you removed the field stop? i was wondering if it's meant for the telecentric beam more than etalon edge problem.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi daslolo

I haven't tried removing the 16mm stop as it means sriping the etalon unit down and according to Daystar they are under pressure and releasing this will damage the etalon.
It is strange that Daystar quote this unit as having a 16mm eyepiece aperture (the size of the rear field stop) but for the Quark standard they quote 21mm clear filter aperture when the rear field stop in them is actually 19mm, as my friend has confirmed on both his Quark units. Daystars wording is quite ambiguas in their advertising.
If I hold my etalon in the correct light I can see just on one side some micha cristallisation so assume this is what is being masked.

I have just bought a ASI 174 mm with reasonable size chip and no problems with vignetting.
I mainly use microscope eyepieces because I like the binocular head and you get high quality eyepieces for a lot less money and again no vignetting, plossls are fine as well.

Cheers Rod
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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by AndiesHandyHandies »

Hi

Checking the Combo the blocker is 21mm and the output is 19.2mm.

And the output looks the same on the 4.2x.

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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi

Any idea where Daystar get 21mm clear filter aperture for the telecentric Quark or even what that means?

Rod


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by marktownley »

RodAstro wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 11:44 am Hi

Any idea where Daystar get 21mm clear filter aperture for the telecentric Quark or even what that means?

Rod
That's what it says on their website, scroll down to bottom to the info box

http://www.daystarfilters.com/Quark.shtml


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by daslolo »

RodAstro wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 am I mainly use microscope eyepieces because I like the binocular head and you get high quality eyepieces for a lot less money and again no vignetting, plossls are fine as well.

Cheers Rod
Mica crystallization? What's that?

Yes solar is forgiving. What head is that? I have a TS big bino on the nexstar, 2" nose, won't fit a quark or scout.


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Re: Daystar DS 60

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Mark
I guess that's where they got it from but who put it on their website :mrgreen:

Hi daslolo Mica is a mineral that forms naturally and is in flat planes of slightly romboidal structure crystals, if the mica is distorted from its flat structure its crystal bonds break and you get hairline fractures in the shape of the crystals. These are best seen through a polarizing microscope when looking at igneous rock like basalt. At a certain angle of light I can just see what looks very much like this on one edge of the etalon but is masked by the slightly smaller aperture mask at the output of the Quark.

The binohead I am using is a Indian copy of a Olympus microscope head. It was on Ebay for about £20 delivered at the time, I just machined out a T2 camera fitting to add to the nose of the bino head so I can screw on 1.25" and 2" t2 fittings. Any similar style binocular head with the sliding eyepiece holders should work as they have the shortest light path, if you are very lucky Celestron made one like this a few years ago but they are quite rare.
The nice thing about the Quark is its telecentric beam is very forgiving of what comes after it, so you have a lot of focus movement behind the quark unlike the light cone from your telescope.


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