New scope suggestion, a Mak or a Refr?

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:37 am

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:13 am
Don't rush James! ;)_Mark Townley

No chance on that. I would have to come into some cash to hurry!

I think Baader makes a Venus filter too.

Would a 430nm reveal faculae any easier than a 540nm would? I know, I would'nt have to ask the question if I would just use the filter!!

James

James, just go with Antlia Wedge and their CaK filter, the more you keep waiting and thinking the less you buy anything or the further you will be from getting one.

Post by **marktownley** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:34 am

TareqPhoto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:44 pm Now if we use this UV filter in combination with K-Line or Synthetic NUV/CaK filter, will that make any better details in CaK band then?

No. All the filters yourself and Rainer linked to have bandpasses like 10x+ higher than the either the Antlia or the Altair. They just offer UV continuum views. Combining isn't going to reduce bandpass just light throughput.

Tareq, try your Astrodon UV in the antlia wedge and see what you get.

Been here with all this over 10 years ago... https://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.com/ ... solar.html

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:47 am

Mark,
That was an interesting blog you did on filter tests. Did you ever find a practical filter or combinations of filters past this that would do CaK features at a more affordable cost? That especially applies now that Lunt has sharply went up in cost on their CaK modules in the last year.

James

Post by **Montana** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:50 am

Do not buy the Baader U !!!! it cuts at 380nm so blocks CaK at 393nm. I have it and it does!!!

Alexandra

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:45 am

So, the best value choice here is that Antlia CaK filter then.

Post by **marktownley** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:06 pm

Don't know? How much does it cost?

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:24 pm

marktownley wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:06 pm Don't know? How much does it cost?

The filter alone is $269, but with the wedge is $339, so it means both the wedge and the filter are cheap, assume they are like $170 each, that is a steal really, and i am talking about those who don't have anything, even if they have a wedge like James did it is not a harm to have another wedge, otherwise he has to buy doubles and doubles of that to get something like Lunt or Quark Module for CaK, he already mentioned about budget limited, i had budget limited, and to him paying about $269 for a filter alone is not worth it, but with the wedge is a good idea, i told you i have 2" Continuum filter, i will buy another wedge for it.

christian viladrich · Post by **christian viladrich** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:15 pm

TareqPhoto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:45 am So, the best value choice here is that Antlia CaK filter then.

Hello Tareq,
As a reminder, Antlia Ca K filter is not a Ca K filter, but a narrow band UV filter. This is a pitty Antlia perpetuates confusion.

Here is what you get with a narrow band UV filter (FWHM = 8.5 nm) :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/so ... -Kline.jpg
Going down to 3 nm FWHM does not changes things dramatically.

On the other hand, Ca K filters have FWHM < 0.5 nm. This is why they are unfortunatly expensive :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/so ... 63-Cak.jpg

I guess the difference is obvious.

Best price for a true Ca K filter is probably Lunt Ca K filter.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:37 pm

I understand easily the difference between the true CaK filters like the Lunt filter vs the wide band K-Line filters like Baader and Antlia sells. If I get one of these it would be for the second wedge for the AT72EDII and I would use the filter to view/image faculae across the disc. That’s something images show that it can do. It certainly doesn’t change my plans to get the more narrowband Lunt module when finances allow.

And I certainly encourage Tareq to use his and see what he can get out of it.

Hey, Tareq, the filter can be removed from the wedge, right?

James

P.S. Thanks for the advice everyone, especially Tareq, Mark and Christian.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:34 pm

Ok, we are going into circle here, i just said what i have, if someone can afford a true narrower band CaK then simply go with Lunt CaK and similar, if someone wants only something like a wide band in UV/K-Line and cheap price there are options such as this Antlia Wedge, if someone really doesn't like the result of that wide band K-Line then please forget about Antlia and Baader filters, can't be easier than that, and when i bought the Antlia i was dump and didn't know the difference, but now i am not regretting it as i like the result anyway, i already said i wasn't trying to match a true CaK, but it sounds here some are trying to just say "Please avoid Antlia/Baader K-Line and save more money and buy a true CaK even if it is more expensive", if that is the case then my job is done here and i won't sell or give up Antlia wedge and NUV filter.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:36 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:37 pm I understand easily the difference between the true CaK filters like the Lunt filter vs the wide band K-Line filters like Baader and Antlia sells. If I get one of these it would be for the second wedge for the AT72EDII and I would use the filter to view/image faculae across the disc. That’s something images show that it can do. It certainly doesn’t change my plans to get the more narrowband Lunt module when finances allow.

And I certainly encourage Tareq to use his and see what he can get out of it.

Hey, Tareq, the filter can be removed from the wedge, right?

James

P.S. Thanks for the advice everyone, especially Tareq, Mark and Christian.

I am sure it can be removed, how they placed it there anyway, but the problem is that removing it is not easy, as i can't open the wedge deep enough where i can put y fingers around the filter to screw to take it off, and i really didn't want to risk making the filter dirty or damage or screw up something trying to remove the filter wrong, so i left it as it is, but from what i see, it can be removed, maybe they used a tool to mount it there tight.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:40 pm

Alexandra mentioned in the past about the Baader K-Line filter making a good faculae viewer and I think the Antlia filter would do that well too and not only at the limb edges like the 540nm or WL image does but across the disc.

I may follow suit with this filter because of this fact, as a tool to study faculae!!

James

P.S. With ultra-narrowband CaK they are called " plage " just as in Ha because you are viewing more lower chromosphere vs more photosphere as in the wider bandwidth K-Line filters.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:09 pm

And i think with a longer focal length and slower focal ratio scopes it might be even better, we can't judge the filter and wedge from one or two or few users without using the filter in all settings or setup or conditions, i am sure if i bought Lunt CaK i won't produce an amazing contrast result with it as well, so later when i will use that filter more ad with another scopes then i can see what i get after all, i still have issues with focus and processing, and now i am ordering few items to help me in something.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:17 pm

And I think with a longer focal length and slower focal ratio scopes it might be even better_Tareq

True that!!

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:04 pm

Good luck

Post by **marktownley** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:34 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:47 am Did you ever find a practical filter or combinations of filters past this that would do CaK features at a more affordable cost?

No. Doesn't exist.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:38 pm

marktownley wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:34 pm
DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:47 am Did you ever find a practical filter or combinations of filters past this that would do CaK features at a more affordable cost?
No. Doesn't exist.

Thanks Mark, Did you check out my post on the KSO? An opinion, whould you consider KSO updating every 10 seconds as " realtime " or does it have to be a live video feed from the scope? I would certainly consider a live video feed realtime and would teat it as if it were one of my own instruments. I could then capture and edit from the feed.

My primary use for KSO data is for CaK.

James

Post by **marktownley** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:39 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:40 pm good faculae viewer

Imaging yes, viewing no! Even with imaging is not easy, the vast majority of the stuff out there is just over sharpened noise and post processing artefacts that manifest as granulation and faculae.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:43 pm

Hmm, it's an imaging only wedge anyway. I would have used a monitor for visual use anyway. I tend to be conservative on over sharpening to increase detail, that's probably one reason my images are a bit fuzzy.

Post by **marktownley** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:58 pm

If you're thinking of using the Antlia wedge as a 'live view' source I can guarantee what you see on screen is going to be lesser than what you get with a continuum filter in the same situation (on screen).

Lots of people have been here before with Baader K-line, Omega Bob filters, thorlabs stuff etc as a route to 'cheap CaK'- it's a road to nowhere! That's why people don't use it now and you don't see images from it.

Best way with this - keep looking on the classifieds /ebay / second hand market for Cak PSTs, not much more than a Antlia wedge - get one, mod it and get better results than with a Lunt CaK module. Patience and long game is the way forward!

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:50 pm

Best way with this - keep looking on the classifieds /ebay / second hand market for Cak PSTs, not much more than a Antlia wedge - get one, mod it and get better results than with a Lunt CaK module. Patience and long game is the way forward! :)_Mark Townley

I would need help with modding. I would not know where to start. I would certainly need your advice. A used Lunt module may be an option too, if I had the money at the time to buy it.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:05 am

So, what is the cheapest brand new true CaK out there in the markets?

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:16 am

My guess is the B600 Lunt CaK module. $1,100 USD . Mark would probably know for sure.

Post by **marktownley** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:21 am

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:16 am My guess is the B600 Lunt CaK module. $1,100 USD . Mark would probably know for sure.

Sounds about right to me.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:43 am

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:16 am My guess is the B600 Lunt CaK module. $1,100 USD . Mark would probably know for sure.

That is the only thing i found, not cheap, if it was like $500-700 then we can think about affording one, but with this price, i think next year i can plan for it.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:21 pm

It was around 800 until last year.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:25 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:21 pm It was around 800 until last year.

No wonder why i keep buying so so much gear in short time, 2 main big reasons:

1. Prices increasing suddenly, so whenever i can i buy the item regardless its current price, because i know later it will go higher and then i can't.

2. Discontinuity, God knows how many items/gear i was planning and thinking about buying in the past but i couldn't afford and they are discontinued, so i don't wait my skills and processing to get improved an then i buy, no, i just buy and then i wait by the time to get improved.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:40 am

I hate to imagine how much a Takahashi TOA 130 will be a couple of years from now. My alternative scope is the Astro-Tech AT130EDT triplet apo which costs less than 1/3rd of the price of the Tak. And they are highly rated for the money. I have it's baby sister the Astro-Tech AT72EDII and it performs wonderfully!

DavidP · Post by **DavidP** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:31 am

I don’t know anything about the Tech, but the TOA has a reputation for being very well corrected for Ca imaging as well as Ha. Not all apos do as well.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:34 am

DavidP wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:31 am I don’t know anything about the Tech, but the TOA has a reputation for being very well corrected for Ca imaging as well as Ha. Not all apos as well.

That doesn't surprise me. Takahashi APO refractors have been at the top of the heap for years and have but a few rivals.

JP

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:51 am

And that quality is coming with price, i am happy with the cheaper alternatives so far, one is TS 90 triplet new model and the other is Askar FRA400, i think if done and used properly it will be hard to find differences between them and high end scopes, many were testing some scopes such as Skywatcher Esprit and Stellarvue to Tak scopes mainly FSQ which are quadruplet scopes to conclude they are almost close, that is with quadruplet, didn't see them test against triplet anyway.

From what i see, whenever you go larger in aperture with refractors in APO you gain less differences, sounds going larger is hiding and correcting many issues anyway, even with achromatic refractors, many said they see very less to no evidence of CA with 130-150mm scopes.

What i want to say is, we all and always want to buy premium gear, no doubt, but if someone can't afford premium scopes or say he want to have premium scopes for everything [solar, lunar, planets, DSO,...etc], how much he will pay then if he can't afford much? i have like 8 scopes and i am not done, and none of them as high end.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:55 am

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:34 am
DavidP wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:31 am I don’t know anything about the Tech, but the TOA has a reputation for being very well corrected for Ca imaging as well as Ha. Not all apos as well.

That doesn't surprise me. Takahashi APO refractors have been at the top of the heap for years and have but a few rivals.

JP

There is AP scopes too and there is TEC, i saw many moved from Takahashi to either AP or TEC, that alone is telling me something, so going from one premium to another premium, why? Like going from Bentley to Rolls Royce.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:05 pm

So, as long it is about a scope choice, i want to know, if one day i can afford something like Lunt CaK module, what is the maximum aperture scope can use? From different sites and also Lunt site they mentioned up to 100mm, so if i buy like 120mm/127mm scope that will be too much?

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:56 pm

I think the Lunt CaK module can use up to a six inch aperture. Pedro Re' uses one on his Lunt LS152 I think. I don't know if an ERF is required for that aperture though. Someone here probably has an answer.

JP

JochenM · Post by **JochenM** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:02 pm

Lunt specifies a limit of 100mm indeed. But if you drop in a sub-aperture ERF (just a blue filter will do), you can safely take that up a notch.

Keep in mind though that CaK is a totally different beast from HA and Continuum/WL imaging. You can pull out amazing details with "just" 100mm of aperture. The downside is that due to the short wavelengths, seeing requirements are much more stringent. I personally very rarely (as in a few times a year tops) get the conditions to attempt higher res CaK imaging.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:26 pm

Ah ok, i was saying if i can go up to 120/127 only, not thinking about 150/152 although some did, my mount will scream a bit for that size, and i think 120 or 150 will give same focal ratio with that 120/127 will be much slower then [~F9], which might help for solar imaging, i just don't know if this will require ERF really or not, i still have long time for that until maybe end of this year or later after 4-6 months depends on my financial situations.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:29 pm

In time I'll go up to a 130 from my 102. Astro-Tech AD130EDT or Takahashi TOA130. It depends on cash. I would probably need a mount too to add to that!

JP

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:37 pm

If 130 or 150 weighting less than 6" reflector or 8" Newtonian then i think my mount can handle that, but i doubt they are any less weight, my 90mm i felt like it is almost same weight as my 6" Newt.

I still think i want to stay within 120, for solar, if i go with 130mm then i can use that for DSO too, and i know which 130mm to buy, but i have to know if my Antlia wedge can be fine with this 130 and later in future with Lunt CaK, i believe it will be more than fine with Quark Chromosphere, but in all cases i need an ERF, but i need to learn more about when to use ERF and for which solar band/filter.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:44 pm

I still think i want to stay within 120, for solar, if i go with 130mm then i can use that for DSO too..._Tareq

That's probably wise. I have a 102mm achromat and the seeing won't support the aperture at higher magnification more than half of the time in the daytime. I would only be able to use the full aperture of a 130mm scope even less. The 70mm Orion is used in part more for this very reason. 80mm is probably the sweet spot between aperture and seeing in my location. Big enough to reveal decent detail and small enough to do reasonably well in my local seeing conditions. And I don't have an 80mm scope!

James

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:44 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:44 pm
I still think i want to stay within 120, for solar, if i go with 130mm then i can use that for DSO too..._Tareq

That's probably wise. I have a 102mm achromat and the seeing won't support the aperture at higher magnification more than half of the time in the daytime. I would only be able to use the full aperture of a 130mm scope even less. The 70mm Orion is used in part more for this very reason. 80mm is probably the sweet spot between aperture and seeing in my location. Big enough to reveal decent detail and small enough to do reasonably well in my local seeing conditions. And I don't have an 80mm scope!

James

And the funny thing is that 80mm is my first ever scope i bought in 2017, i started in 2017, and i was using that scope for DSO, but not good results, and many told me to get rid of it or sell it, something in my head told me no, keep it, in future you will use it, sounds i buy so many things i and others don't know how good it is until later, i trust my gear, and for that i will also trust that Antlia wedge even if i will buy a dedicated CaK tool.

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:01 am

Tareq,
80mm is a good average aperture, especially for solar use.

Keep me posted on how you do with that Antlia K-line wedge. Try it visually using a monitor and let me know how it looks, especially on faculae visibility. If you image with it beware of oversharpening. Only then can you see how it will really do. I am certainly curious.

Thanks

James

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:34 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:01 am Tareq,
80mm is a good average aperture, especially for solar use.

Keep me posted on how you do with that Antlia K-line wedge. Try it visually using a monitor and let me know how it looks, especially on faculae visibility. If you image with it beware of oversharpening. Only then can you see how it will really do. I am certainly curious.

Thanks

James

I already and finally ordered few tools or accessories that will help me, i am just waiting them to arrive hopefully on time, then i will let you know, i stopped now as i don't need to waste time with issues and headache i am facing, so once i get the items and put them in use i can see the results for both, Antlia wedge and Quark Ha.

vkx86 · Post by **vkx86** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:10 am

TareqPhoto wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:51 am i have like 8 scopes and i am not done, and none of them as high end.

8 scopes and not done yet?!
Seems you have a GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) - you need to manage that condition, start to thin your scopes herd

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:14 am

vkx86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:10 am
TareqPhoto wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:51 am i have like 8 scopes and i am not done, and none of them as high end.
8 scopes and not done yet?!
Seems you have a GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) - you need to manage that condition, start to thin your scopes herd

I don't think he's alone here.

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:43 pm

vkx86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:10 am
TareqPhoto wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:51 am i have like 8 scopes and i am not done, and none of them as high end.
8 scopes and not done yet?!
Seems you have a GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) - you need to manage that condition, start to thin your scopes herd

Tell that to others i saw with doubles of what i have, even worse, they have like 4-10 high end scopes and sounds they aren't done too, whether people told them they have GAS or not it sounds didn't work, they keep going

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:44 pm

DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:14 am
vkx86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:10 am
TareqPhoto wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:51 am i have like 8 scopes and i am not done, and none of them as high end.
8 scopes and not done yet?!
Seems you have a GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) - you need to manage that condition, start to thin your scopes herd

I don't think he's alone here.

Definitely not alone, in fact now i am shopping for my 9th scope as i got a budget yesterday

DeepSolar64 · Post by **DeepSolar64** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:48 pm

And I am wanting a CR6, AT130EDT or TOA130!!

TareqPhoto · Post by **TareqPhoto** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:48 pm

And me looking for RC 10", all of them are slightly above my budget i got, so i still keep trying to find one that fit my budget as much i can and the design quality is good.