Camera question

Use this section to discuss "standard" Baader/Coronado/ Lunt SolarView/ Daystar, etc… filters, cameras and scopes. No mods, just questions/ answers and reviews.
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Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Hello all: what is the next up camera with large pixel (size 5.86 or over) with higher resolution than the 174 chip 2.35 Mp ?

Thank you,

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by marktownley »

Player One Max?


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Re: Camera question

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Franco...

Marks suggestion is the only one I can think of either. Large arrays and small pixels is the way most of the sensors are going now days.

Some of the other chips with small pixels could be binned, but but I don't think that the performance is as good as the larger pixel chip.

Just my thoughts,

Brian


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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Thank you Mark and Brian. If I read the specs correctly, the Apollo IMX432 has a 9 large pixel size but the resolution is only 1.7Mp. The 174 chip has a 2.35Mp resolution, 5.86 pixel size. Is there a camera that has a resolution higher than 2.35Mp and at the same time 5.86 or larger pixels ?

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Franco,

What about an ASI 1600MM Pro with 4656 x 3520 pixels and 3.8µm and use it in binned mode ?


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Re: Camera question

Post by marktownley »

ffellah wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:44 pm Is there a camera that has a resolution higher than 2.35Mp and at the same time 5.86 or larger pixels ?
Nope :(


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Re: Camera question

Post by rsfoto »

ffellah wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:28 am Hello all: what is the next up camera with large pixel (size 5.86 or over) with higher resolution than the 174 chip 2.35 Mp ?

Thank you,

Franco
Perhaps think out of the box and make a search in the DSO cooled camera section ¿?


regards Rainer

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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Thank you Mark and Rainer, I think :?

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi all...

The deep sky lineup is still dominated by small pixels.

One option might be the 294MM chipped camera can be bought as cooled or un-cooled through ZWO, maybe others as well.

The standard mode has it as an array of 4144*2822, 4.64 micron pixels. It is a confusing chip as this is actually a 'locked' binned mode by default, but was updated to permit it to run in the un-locked mode of 8288*5644, 2.3 micron pixels. This matches up to the shot focal lengths.

I don't see why it couldn't be run with binning to get to 9.2 micron pixels and an array that is 2.9 mega pixel, but I am not sure how well it would work. I have the colour version of the cooled camera, but not tried it for solar to evaluate the speed in the binned mode. Next session I could try it and the 1600MM and see how they perform.

Are you trying to get pixels to match a high f-ratio for solar work?

Brian


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Re: Camera question

Post by TareqPhoto »

The question is, why do you want a large pixel size and high resolution?

Choose which one is more important, for DSO i feel people care much about pixel sampling, while for planetary or solar it is the resolution maybe?


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Re: Camera question

Post by MapleRidge »

I will let Franco confirm the details, but I believe that he is using a HaT OTA (C8 with built in ERF), and a Ha filter that needs f30 or better to perform best. My apologies Franco if I got this wrong.

At this long a focal length the larger pixel size is justified, and avoids the need to use a focal reducer to make a closer match to the sampling of the smaller pixel cameras and getting more of the sun on the chip (small chip = small FOV at the long focal length).

Brian


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Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
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iOptron CEM70G Mount carrying:
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Ha Setup: Lunt LS80PT/LS75FHa/B1200Ha + Home Brew Lunt Double Stack/B1800Ha on the Orion OTA + Daystar Quantum
WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Thank you Brian and Tareq for your comments. I am just exploring if there are options for a higher resolution camera at a long focal length, like Brian said. 2.35 Mp is adequate if you display on a computer monitor: if you want to do a good size print of the image, that resolution is not great, in my opinion. I see it when we print my images in the Observatory yearly calendar, my high res images are at the limit of what can print well.

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Brian: I looked up the 294MM camera, seems interesting. Let me know what your experience is with solar, even if yours is the color version...

Thank you,

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by rsfoto »

Hi Franco,

Yesterday I made a test with my ASI 1600MM Cool but as my focal length on that telescope is only 530mm I was not able to see anything relevant.

On the other side it looks like I have problems with my USB 3.0 bandwidth going through the hub of my iOptron mount. That has always been a problem. The more connectors you have the more speed you loose in such a configuration. I just tested and really you need to be sure to have very good cables and a PC capable of the bandwidth.

I got only 4 - 5 fps using a good quality active extension cable at full 4656x3520 pixels in 16bit mode. The specification says you can get 14.7 fps at 12bit ADC ...


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Re: Camera question

Post by TareqPhoto »

I do have 294 mono, i can use it in two modes as you know, but i still have issues with scopes.


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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Thank you, Rainer, for your advice. I have a fairly recent i7 Acer laptop that seems to be very adequate when it comes to accepting large volumes of data coming in. Tareq: I would be interested in knowing about your experience with the 294 mono camera if/when you use it.

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by TareqPhoto »

ffellah wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:40 am Thank you, Rainer, for your advice. I have a fairly recent i7 Acer laptop that seems to be very adequate when it comes to accepting large volumes of data coming in. Tareq: I would be interested in knowing about your experience with the 294 mono camera if/when you use it.

Franco
For DSO it is amazing or great, for planetary say the moon it is ok, never tested for planets and maybe will never do that.

Now for solar i have first to figure out about the scope, then i can give it a try, and then i can post my experience/impression about it for solar.

Tareq


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Re: Camera question

Post by MapleRidge »

Hi Franco...

What focal length are you planning to use the camera at? If I can make a system closer to your intended use it will be a more relevant test.

Brian


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Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185395281@N08/albums

10'x15 Roll-off Roof Observatory
Takahashi EM400 Mount carrying:
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Planetary Work - SBIG CFW10, ASI462MM

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WL, G-Band & CaK Setup: Lunt Wedge & Lunt B1800CaK, Baader K-Line and Altair 2nm G-Band filter
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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Brian: with the HaT scope at at f/19 with focal reducer and f/27 without. I could also use it with the Evostar 150 at f/21.6 using the Airylab 2.7x telecentric.That pixel size may work well at f/19 to f/22, not sure about f/27 unless seeing is extremely good...

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by christian viladrich »

rsfoto wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:20 pm Hi Franco,

What about an ASI 1600MM Pro with 4656 x 3520 pixels and 3.8µm and use it in binned mode ?
I did some tests with the ASI1600 in binned mode on my C8 EdgeHD at f/27. There is "more pixels" than with the IMX 174, and the binned pixels are larger than the pixels of the Basler 1920-155.
For some reasons, even in 8-bit, the acquisition is rather slow, in the range of 40 fps. Still, it could be OK in some situations (big proms or sunspots).


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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Thank you Christian and Rainer for the ASI 1600MM suggestion. Christian: did you get any good results in binned mode ? Any image you can share ?

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by Questor »

Now ZWO is preordering 533MM 9 Mega Pixel 3008*3008 at 3.76μm. Not Sure what the advantage over the 1600mm. QE is better and less noise. $1200 vs 899. Crazy thing is its a square sensor.


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Re: Camera question

Post by Questor »

oops its $1200 vs $1080 ....sorry


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Re: Camera question

Post by christian viladrich »

ffellah wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:23 pm Thank you Christian and Rainer for the ASI 1600MM suggestion. Christian: did you get any good results in binned mode ? Any image you can share ?

Franco
Yes Franco, the results were quite good. I'll try to post the images by the beginning of next week.


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Re: Camera question

Post by TareqPhoto »

I also forgot that i do have APS-C format, color and mono, not only 4/3", so i have enough cameras for tests, but i see some using something like 178mm camera, i have the color version of this one, the only mono planetary cameras i have are 174 and 290, and i keep thinking about if i should buy another camera from Player One for solar or not.


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Re: Camera question

Post by Universal_Astrophotography »

I have actually been looking for the ZWO ASI174MM-Cool for a while now on the used classifieds boards and eBay. It seems like the perfect camera for my setup as it will allow for reduced noise for DSOs but have the ability to fit the full disk within the camera's frame.

Unfortunately, It seems the large sensors with smaller pixels is the way things are headed for CMOS, it makes finding these or similar cameras quite difficult anymore. I am still hoping one will turn up somewhere soon, best of luck in finding these larger pixel sensors!


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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Have you tried Astromart ? Sometime these type of cameras show up, I would say infrequently, and you may have to jump on it as they can sell very quickly.

Franco


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Re: Camera question

Post by Universal_Astrophotography »

ffellah wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:02 pm Have you tried Astromart ? Sometime these type of cameras show up, I would say infrequently, and you may have to jump on it as they can sell very quickly.

Franco
These older cameras definitely seem to sell quickly if the price is right. I have tried on Astromart as well; I have "wanted" ads on Cloudy Nights, Astromart, and this forum. I am offering the original selling price (~$900 USD) but I haven't had anyone contact me about my wanted ad yet.

I have noticed others also have wanted ads for this same camera but no one has marked one as found in a long time, my offer price is significantly higher than other offers though so I am hoping someone will be willing to part with it for the original sale price.


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Re: Camera question

Post by christian viladrich »

Hello Franco,
Here is a test image taken with the ASI1600 in binned 2x2. Seeing was bad.
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/so ... -SMN35.jpg

For comparison, the acquisition with the Basler 1920-155 in much better seeing condition:
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/so ... -B1920.jpg
Processing for this last one was with more contrast.

Acquisition with the B1920-155 was at 140 fps for 1920 x 1200 pixels, i.e. 322 Mo/s
Acquisition with the ASI 1600 was at 50 fps for 2300 x 1800 pixels, i.e. 200 Mo/s. This is a bit surprising. Maybe acquition in 8-bit are actually made in 10-bit ? This would mean 260 Mos ?

In any case, the images with the ASI 1600 binned 2x2 are quite good, with very low noise level.


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Re: Camera question

Post by TareqPhoto »

christian viladrich wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:58 pm Hello Franco,
Here is a test image taken with the ASI1600 in binned 2x2. Seeing was bad.
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/so ... -SMN35.jpg

For comparison, the acquisition with the Basler 1920-155 in much better seeing condition:
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/so ... -B1920.jpg
Processing for this last one was with more contrast.

Acquisition with the B1920-155 was at 140 fps for 1920 x 1200 pixels, i.e. 322 Mo/s
Acquisition with the ASI 1600 was at 50 fps for 2300 x 1800 pixels, i.e. 200 Mo/s. This is a bit surprising. Maybe acquition in 8-bit are actually made in 10-bit ? This would mean 260 Mos ?

In any case, the images with the ASI 1600 binned 2x2 are quite good, with very low noise level.
Very nice comparison, you saved my life time :lol:

I can't imagine how much cleaner it will be if i used the new sensors, 294 and IMX571, but in all cases, the solar imaging isn't that much demanding as DSO for example or maybe planetary.


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Re: Camera question

Post by ffellah »

Thank you Christian. They both look great, interesting to see the different image scale with each camera. The results with the 1600 are really good.

Franco


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