Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

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Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by marktownley »

I've finally got round to doing a calcium comparison between 2 of my favourite refractors, but first a bit of background and history...

One of my favourite scopes i've used for calcium imaging for over 10 years now is the Russian made Tal100RS refractor. No longer manufactured, this 100mm f10 achromat was made in Novosibirsk, Eastern Siberia, and have read was based on a Zeiss lens design, it cost me the princely sum of £199 new. It has been a trusty solar scope for a decade, being used as a PST mod, white-light and also calcium. Importantly, performing very well in Calcium, at full aperture with little or negligible spherical aberration. Many years of astronomy has shown from my location a 4" scope is one that certainly for 75% of the year can be used repeatably with the seeing conditions I have, it's also nice and easy to handle lifting on and off the mount. The scope itself is rather 'agricultural' in its manufacture, and quite heavy with a rolled and then welded steel tube, it came with a crude but effective 2" crayford focuser, which I since replaced with a moonlite, and have also replaced the original tube rings with CNC variant which allows greater mounting flexibility on a top rail. The black dew shield is easily removeable should the need arise. While it is a killer performer in monochromatic light, using it for polychromatic astronomy, moon and planets in my case, it is only an achromat after all, and despite being the best scope I owned in terms of polychromatic astronomy there was false colour, and this bugged me!

Fast forward to last year, and after a year or so of covid curtailing my spending socially I had built up a pot of money. I had decided I wanted to get a new scope - a keeper, one that would last me a lifetime, but also meet my perfectionist demands optically with a lack of false colour. While there are a host of triplet apos out there these days, optically, in the blue end of the spectrum these didn't give the performance I was looking for, and after weighing up the options my focus narrowed down on TEC and APM as likely solutions. Another factor in the mix I needed to consider was portability, I wanted something I could take away with me to darker skies as while not a regular night time astronomer, I do enjoy the moon and planets given a chance. Sat in lockdown I trawled the internet looking for my 'keeper' scope solution, and after speaking to various retailers I had a tip off from Rupert at Astrograph that APM had commissioned LZOS optical plant in Russia to make a final batch of their legendary 100/800 triplet lens. This lens has the reputation of being as near optically perfect as is possible to be. From my perspective this also included in blue end of the spectrum. So, I placed an order for one, and, late autumn 2021 it duly arrived. So late in the year my solar was always going to be curtailed a bit until spring, but I was fortunate enough to have Jupiter and Saturn low in the evening sky, and, also the moon. To say I was impressed with this scope was an understatement, the contrast and richness of colour it delivers is phenomenal. It is however ruthlessly revealing of lesser eyepieces, and I rapidly had to buy a few more. Cosmetically it's 800mm focal length was the same as my Coronado DS90, and so eyepiece wise, there was a crossover. It also meant imaging wise I could achieve the same scale at different wavelengths, which was desirable.

I had used the 100/800 in CaK, stopped down to 50mm for a full disk, and also stopped down to 80mm to give me f27 with the Airylab telecentric to great effect, but I had never compared it and the Tal side by side. So, Saturday morning I decided to do so. The sky was hazy, and so not ideal for CaK (particularly proms), but at least conditions were the same for both scopes which is important.

For my full disk setup I find I get nice results with my homebrew CaK filter getting a f16 beam entering it, and this gives nice results on the ICX814 chipped PGR camera. So, it meant the APM was going to be running 50mm aperture, and the TAl was going to be running at 60mm aperture.

First off the APM...

ImageCaK-FD-50mm-f16-ICX814-bw by Mark Townley, on Flickr

ImageCaK-FD-50mm-f16-ICX814-colour by Mark Townley, on Flickr

This gives me an image 2200 x 2200 pixels (no disk size)

Next up the Tal...

ImageCak-FD-60mm-f16-ICX814-bw by Mark Townley, on Flickr

ImageCak-FD-60mm-f16-ICX814-colour by Mark Townley, on Flickr

Here image size is greater, with an image 2700 x 2700.

Viewed as above in this thread there is no perceptible difference between the 2 scopes. Viewing them full size in Flickr, and again, apart from a difference in image scale there is no difference in performance. The APM lets through more light in CaK - with the exposure time being 8ms (no gain), the Tal on the other hand is 10ms (no gain).

So, you might ask, which is the winner? Which should you buy? Well for me they are both equal performers, equally as well. However there is cost - the APM costs nearly 20 times the price of the Tal. Given the war in Ukraine and sanctions meaning there will be no more LZOS glass coming out of Russia for the foreseeable, both are now holy grail scopes. If you see a second hand Tal you should snap it up if you image in Calcium. The only 100/800 out there are going to be last remaining dealer stock, or, again (and unlikely) second hand sales. I did initially wonder if the APM would have the upper hand, but, i'm not surprised the Tal more than holds its own!

For me, the APM is a rung in my calcium ladder of imaging when seeing is less than ideal - 50mm f16 gives me more of a window throughout the year for CaK full disks (the 40mm coronado does winter CaK duties), when seeing does allow the Tal used at 60mm f16 is preferable. Similarly, the 100/800 stopped down to 80mm gives an f10 beam for the 2.7x airylab telecentric which is an excellent performer in CaK, the Airylab works beautifully with the 100mm f10, again, seeing allowing.

Looking to the future, the 100/800, again stopped down to 80mm, will give a nice sample rate when used with the 2.4um pixels of a 183mm chipped camera, for an even larger full disk with more resolution than the 60mm Tal option. I'll try and keep the thread updated with more images in better conditions and see if there is a perceptible difference.

Mark


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by vineyard »

That's a fun & useful comparison. I think the bottom half of the APM monochrome disk just shades the Tal version (it seems slightly brighter & clearer?). There's a TAL 100R being sold on SGL currently I think. It did strike me as s/t for CaK but since I have no CaK filter that would be premature :)

And in any event, I've decided to keep my Vixen 102M which should hopefully also be a match on the optics side to the Russians for CaK? Although I will need to change the focuser on that to a 2" for any future CaK filters. Something for the future.

Cheers for sharing the comparison.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by Highbury Mark »

Very interesting and informative report Mark. And congratulations on the APM/LZOS scope - a true lifetime refractor.
The results just reconfirm how well figured the TALs are, and particularly suited to solar applications. But the benefits of the LZOS will be all too clear when Mars returns later this year. The views of Jupiter I had through a newly-acquired TSA-120 last autumn were a complete joy - far superior to anything I’d seen with a C8 Edge in years of observing the planets. I imagine the LZOS is also a fine white light instrument. I miss having a 4” scope for WL - it’s noticeable how better suited they are to UK seeing than 120mm.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by Montana »

Super Mark!! I will be very interested to know how it performs in WL, I bet you get some wonderful granulation if you buy a continuum filter.

:hamster:
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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by christian viladrich »

Interesting Mark !
Resolution is a bit better with the APM. But the difference is small.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by marktownley »

Thanks everyone for the comments!

I have a continuum coming from Rupert hopefully later this week Alexandra ;)


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by mami813 »

hello mark
That's a great shot.
I'm curious about the equipment setup.
I am curious about the type and arrangement of the filters.

-Jongho


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by DeepSolar64 »

You own both the TAL and APM100!! Nice! You will find that 540nm filter useful with them. Both scopes do well. But was the APM worth the price!? That TAL100RS does wonderfully after all.

James


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by ffellah »

Interesting story and comparison, Mark. The Tal sounds like a great deal for the money, if you can find one. Great shots by the way.

Franco


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by vkx86 »

Highbury Mark wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:16 am I miss having a 4” scope for WL - it’s noticeable how better suited they are to UK seeing than 120mm.
Nothing to miss here - you can always stop down 120mm frac to 100mm ;)


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by marktownley »

mami813 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:19 pm hello mark
That's a great shot.
I'm curious about the equipment setup.
I am curious about the type and arrangement of the filters.

-Jongho
Thanks Johgho.

The scopes are just 'as they are' with masks to reduce the aperture. The filter is a construction of my own using notch filters from a CaK PST and blockers from Edmond Optics.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by marktownley »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:03 am You own both the TAL and APM100!! Nice! You will find that 540nm filter useful with them. Both scopes do well. But was the APM worth the price!? That TAL100RS does wonderfully after all.

James
Thanks James. The 540nm has arrived now, hoping to be able to test it this weekend. Boat is back in the water today, so 8 hour journey to get her back to the regular mooring first...

Is the APM worth the price? If it was just solar I did then the Tal is the winner, but the APM, on the moon (and briefly on the planets) is simply jaw dropping in terms of the contrast, clarity and complete lack of any fringing or false colour. The Tal can't do this, and so for me in this respect. yes the APM is very much worth it. I've gone out and observed the moon more in the last 6 months than I have in the last 6 years, probably even longer than that.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by vkx86 »

marktownley wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:07 am I've gone out and observed the moon more in the last 6 months than I have in the last 6 years, probably even longer than that.
Although considered an "easy target", Moon has infinite amount of details, depending on seeing and aperture.
I always like the sight of the Luna in my Mewlon-180C during dusk at Autumn, when seeing allows to push magnification - I'm still finding some new detail after 7 years of observing with that scope.
That rile in the center of Alpine Valley is on my "hunting list" - it's on the edge of visual detection of my aperture, but seems it requires really outstanding seeing.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by vkx86 »

marktownley wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 8:12 am ...Given the war in Ukraine and sanctions meaning there will be no more LZOS glass coming out of Russia for the foreseeable, both are now holy grail scopes.
Just found a link to LZOS visit report in my astro bookmarks from many years ago...that's a "one, huge enterprise", something like Zeiss + Schott together.
I suspect, that Markus of APM may find a way to get these LZOS triplets in the future...but I'm not sure if LZOS will still manufacture these very insignificant for them items in the future.
Frankly, I'm under impression, that all of LZOS objectives, that found their way to the West (especially large aperture ones) were leftovers of "Гос-оборон-заказ" of Russian MoD, that Markus put his hands on.
Anyway, your suggestion to one, who is interested to get one ASAP while the stock lasts, is a very sound one ;)


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by DeepSolar64 »

The LZOS is an apochromat, right? It should outperform a standard achromatic doublet with regular crown and flint like the TAL is. I have read that LZOS scopes are really nice. I would suggest using a Baader fringekiller or semi-apo filter with the TAL for better performance on the planets and other nighttime objects. They might block the blue end wavelengths for CaK though but with the CaK narrowband filter being used, chromatic aberration probably would not be an issue anyway.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by marktownley »

vkx86 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:59 am
marktownley wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 8:12 am ...Given the war in Ukraine and sanctions meaning there will be no more LZOS glass coming out of Russia for the foreseeable, both are now holy grail scopes.
Just found a link to LZOS visit report in my astro bookmarks from many years ago...that's a "one, huge enterprise", something like Zeiss + Schott together.
I suspect, that Markus of APM may find a way to get these LZOS triplets in the future...but I'm not sure if LZOS will still manufacture these very insignificant for them items in the future.
Frankly, I'm under impression, that all of LZOS objectives, that found their way to the West (especially large aperture ones) were leftovers of "Гос-оборон-заказ" of Russian MoD, that Markus put his hands on.
Anyway, your suggestion to one, who is interested to get one ASAP while the stock lasts, is a very sound one ;)
Interesting article! Thanks!


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by vkx86 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:17 am The LZOS is an apochromat, right? It should outperform a standard achromatic doublet with regular crown and flint like the TAL is. I have read that LZOS scopes are really nice.
Both of them are actually LZOS, at least the optical glass.
There is only one foundry that melts optical glass in Russia, as far as I know - LZOS.
One that Mark got is LZOS APO triplet objective fully made by LZOS (both glass and lens), that Markus of APM assembles into a final product.
"TAL" is abbreviature of "Телескоп Астрономический Любительский" (Amateur Astronomical Telescope), the one Mark has was produced by NPZ (Novosibirsk Instrumental Plant) from LZOS glass, that I assume, most probably was ground into lenses by LZOS also.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by marktownley »

Thanks for your insights!


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by DeepSolar64 »

marktownley wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:45 pm Thanks for your insights!
I second that!

Russia obviously makes some good optical glass! Now it's gonna sadly become difficult to impossible to get.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by Highbury Mark »

vkx86 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:20 am [quote="Highbury Mark" post_id=334576 time=<a href="tel:1651486583">1651486583</a> user_id=6746]
I miss having a 4” scope for WL - it’s noticeable how better suited they are to UK seeing than 120mm.
Nothing to miss here - you can always stop down 120mm frac to 100mm ;)
[/quote]

The 100mm doublet was 2.8kg - 4kg fully set up. The 120mm triplet is pushing 9kg. But fair point, I often stop down for hydrogen alpha, should do the same for WL.


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by vkx86 »

Highbury Mark wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:25 am The 100mm doublet was 2.8kg - 4kg fully set up. The 120mm triplet is pushing 9kg.
Well, Tak TSA-120 isn't exactly grab-n-go scope, but kind of more powerful and universal :)


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Re: Russian Refractors Calcium Showdown - TAL100RS vs LZOS 100/800

Post by thesmiths »

For those who know about Russian optics: does anyone know the difference between LOMO and LZOS?

I ordered an 80mm f6 refractor from Markus at APM some years ago (I think he said it was the last run of small APOs he would be doing, using up all the parts he had around). It came with a LOMO lens. The telescope is good, but I would not say it is fantastic.

This is a bit off topic, but also many years ago, I ordered a 4-inch APO air-spaced triplet from a small British manufacturer (106mm f6.6) that called itself SET Optics. Steve Thompson, the guy who made it, says he would get the lenses from Russia. I'm not exactly sure which source he used but the quality of the lens is amazingly good (both at 540nm and 400nm). I always wondered who made the lens. Steve seems to have dropped off the grid so I can't ask him now.


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