Wishlist for solar camera

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Bastelhannes
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Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

Hi folks, it's me again, Crazy Karsten...

my current project is to create a wishlist for the most perfect, optimal camera.

Why?

I currently am in discussion with Touptek and want to give them the task to develop a new camera for solar astronomy (h-alpha, CaK, white light). While talking to them I discovered... I only assume some details and I am too vague.

Therefore my idea to create a list here of all your wishes. With these details I am going to talk to the people over there (I have some really good connections meanwhile).

I also am going to try some exotic cameras in the next future, like:

E3ISPM18000KPA
Sensor: 18M/SONY Special(C) / 1/2.2 “(5.86x4.46)
Pixelsize: 1.2 x 1.2 µm
Sensitivity 130mv with 1/30s 0.1mv with 1/30s
FPS: 17@4880x3720 // 40@2448x1836// 50@1728x1296



Let me start with my wishes:
- small pixels (about 2 µm)
- high FPS (30-40 fps at full resolution)
- monochrome
- high QE at 395 nm and 656 nm


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Dennis »

Hi Karsten,

the apollo max is already pretty good for me, if i could improve it i would look for:

- usb 3.1 gen 2 interface with 10gbps
- highest possible s/n ratio (to deal better with seeing)
- same pixel size (9µm) but a bit more pixels (a square chip with a max diagonal of 20mm)
- high FPS up to 200 fps at full resolution and 16 bit
- monochrome
- high QE at 395 nm and 656 nm (but preferably 656nm)
- tilter included if newtonrings are a big thing with the chip


best regards
Dennis
Last edited by Dennis on Thu May 26, 2022 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

Wow, I am confused now.

Dennis wants huge pixels (9 µm), I want 2 µm pixels...

Has anyone an explanation why people tend to bigger pixels in solar astronomy now?


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Dennis »

Bastelhannes wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:30 am Wow, I am confused now.

Dennis wants huge pixels (9 µm), I want 2 µm pixels...

Has anyone an explanation why people tend to bigger pixels in solar astronomy now?
Well the big pixelsize is better for the application of closeup imaging with high f-ratios (f30+ for mica spaced etalons).
But the actual reason for big pixels is signal / noise ratio, which is just coming with bigger pixels.
The higher the s/n ratio, the better we can deal with seeing, since we can stack less % of the record to get a good result.

If i could get a similar s/n ratio with binning 2 µm pixels that would of course be better and mean more flexibility.
But as things are for now, binning small pixels will not give the same result.

If you use air spaced etalons that dont require the high f-ratio or do full disk imaging or other applications then smaller pixels might be better.
Last edited by Dennis on Thu May 26, 2022 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

SO MUCH WILL DEPEND ON THE SCOPE-DETAILS TO BE USED, PLUS THE PLETHORA OF OTHER ACCESSORIES AND OF COURSE THE VARIABLE "SEEING" CONDITIONS EXPECTED..

BEST TO UTILISE :-

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/
AND
https://astronomy.tools/calculators/ccd_suitability
AND EVEN
https://astroforumspace.com/best-zwo-ca ... otography/

CLEAR SKIES
TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by sywong2000 »

wow... this is going to be an interesting topic...

I mean - to me, of course a camera with the highest QE with the smallest pixel would be the best. But in real life there're so many factors: costs, and matching the scope resolution (against different wavelengths) may cause a "waste" or mismatch to such a "perfect" camera. I've seen a lot of calculations being done in the deepsky discussions. Although those look scientific but putting in real life those are pure debates and pure theories. Anyways, getting myself to start :D :

- 2 or 3 um seemed to be good enough for now
- of course highest QE possible. If can go up to 80%, that'll be perfect. But I think there're some kind of physical limitations...
- 140 - 200 fps
- less than $800 :) or may be $1000
- electronic tilter
- ultrasound sensor cleaning (may be this is patented?)

For the last one, yes, I'm thinking about dust bunnies. When I assemble all the equipment, do the focus, and the next terrible thing I've found there're dust bunnies in the sensor! I certainly do not want to disassemble again to clean them. As this may cause even more dusts in the field, or drop of the camera to the ground. Some may say the flat will do the job - it's true, but from my experiences on prominence, differences exposures settings result in a slightly different dust bunnies patterns. If I pushed from 15ms to 90ms the dust bunnies pattern are not the same. I'm not sure why, but I think this is due to a shadow of the dust casting to the next few pixels when the intensity grows, where such intensity difference are not picking up by the flat frame. Also may be due to the dust itself is not solid (semi-transparent somehow) so the flat is not enough to cover the differences.

Similar happens in planetary imaging. Situation is somehow a "reverse", the dust bunnies were "hidden" because the background is black. When the planet moves across the imaging field, then the dust bunnies "shadow" shows in the object, for certain area, which you cannot spot it until the object hitting on that area. This may waste hundreds/thousands of good frames....

Electronic tilter would be excellent on Ha to eliminate the newton rings. Plus certain software plugin analytics - possible lead to a fully-automated tilting solution.

Stephen


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by marktownley »

There's no such thing as one perfect camera for all applications...


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

THANKYOU MARK FOR ADDIDING THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMENT OF YOURS,
WHICH IS WHY I ADDED MY COMMENTS OF UTILISING :-

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/
AND
https://astronomy.tools/calculators/ccd_suitability
AND EVEN
https://astroforumspace.com/best-zwo-ca ... otography/

WHERE DIFFERING SETUP'S SHOW DIFFERENT RESULTS...

JUST A LITTLE WORK NEEDED TO FIND THE ANSWER

TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

Terry, Mark, Thank you for the hints.

I am very well aware that pixel size depends on the setup used. But this was not my question (but thank you very much Terry to list up the tools, this is very helpful). I just want to figure out, what people want, so I may influence a camera manufacturer to create one (or more) cams for us and our special requirements.

After I got the requirementsI can ask for realization and costs...


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by rsfoto »

Hallo Bastelhannes,

Interesting idea but one of the main things they will need to consider is that the cameras should be easily integrated into the existing software packages already existing unless they want to develop their own acquisition software but then it really has to be a versatile software package with many functions but not too excessive in order to keep it intuitive which most of the software packages are not ...

and the camera should have an adaptive pixel size so one can adapt the pixel size of the camera to the telescope and seeing :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by PDB »

rsfoto wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:32 pm Hallo Bastelhannes,

Interesting idea but one of the main things they will need to consider is that the cameras should be easily integrated into the existing software packages already existing unless they want to develop their own acquisition software but then it really has to be a versatile software package with many functions but not too excessive in order to keep it intuitive which most of the software packages are not ...

and the camera should have an adaptive pixel size so one can adapt the pixel size of the camera to the telescope and seeing :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
hmmm .... isn't that called barlow or reducer?
I currently am in discussion with Touptek and want to give them the task to develop a new camera for solar astronomy (h-alpha, CaK, white light). While talking to them I discovered... I only assume some details and I am too vague.
Well maybe you should convince them to delivery GOOD software and decenr SDK

I have one Toupcam Clone and the the software and driver is really a piece of sh*t; (even with the the original toupcam SDK).

Paul


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by marktownley »

Bastelhannes wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:17 pm I just want to figure out, what people want, so I may influence a camera manufacturer to create one (or more) cams for us and our special requirements.
I currently own 4 cameras, I use them for different setups, scales and wavelengths.

There's at least another 2 I will get round to buying, maybe 3?


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by MalVeauX »

Hi,

If you want a killer solar camera, it needs to have a few features:

1) Smaller pixels that do not show grid artifact (as small as it can possibly get, 2.Xum range)
Binning can handle longer focal ratio needs; small pixels are ideal for full disc imaging setups

2) 1" sensor or even slightly bigger at 1.1" with a substantial increase in FPS when using ROI cropping
Big sensor for large disc images with full FOV in one shot, ROI cropping to a smaller FOV with smaller sensors for moderate/high res work

3) Max throughput on the USB3 interface so if you crop you get appropriate increases in FPS
FPS and throughput should always be at the limit of USB3, quite linear

4) Really good and common driver support in the major imaging software platforms

5) Global shutter would be preferred

If you take the IMX183 sensor and solve the artifact grid issue (Sony's issue), it would be one of the more ideal "do all" solar cameras.

Very best,
Last edited by MalVeauX on Thu May 26, 2022 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by marktownley »

MalVeauX wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:16 am If you take the IMX183 sensor and solve the artifact grid issue (Sony's issue), it would be one of the more ideal "do all" solar cameras.
I'm lucky, mine doesn't have the grid issue, and using it binned for the first time the other day I was very pleased. 1ms exposure time with virtually zero gain for a HA DS full disk, i'll take that...


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Sol seeker uk »

EGRAY_OBSERVATORY wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:02 pm THANKYOU MARK FOR ADDIDING THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMENT OF YOURS,
WHICH IS WHY I ADDED MY COMMENTS OF UTILISING :-

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/
AND
https://astronomy.tools/calculators/ccd_suitability
AND EVEN
https://astroforumspace.com/best-zwo-ca ... otography/

WHERE DIFFERING SETUP'S SHOW DIFFERENT RESULTS...

JUST A LITTLE WORK NEEDED TO FIND THE ANSWER

TERRY
Those tools aren't the Bible... They're not set in stone,and for deep sky aren't accurate...can't see it being any different for solar


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

WELL, THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN FOR MOST SOLAR/LUNAR PURPOSES - AND AS ACCURATE AS NEEDED.

DEEP-SKY IMAGING - DOES NOT APPLY TO SOLARCHAT SUBJECTS ON THIS WEBSITE, AS WILL SIMPLY FLOOD SOLARCHAT WITH UNWANTED MATERIAL...

TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

I am sorry, I did not want to create a discussion about formulas. I just wanted to know what you guys (m,f,d,i) want and need...


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by MalVeauX »

marktownley wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:43 am
MalVeauX wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:16 am If you take the IMX183 sensor and solve the artifact grid issue (Sony's issue), it would be one of the more ideal "do all" solar cameras.
I'm lucky, mine doesn't have the grid issue, and using it binned for the first time the other day I was very pleased. 1ms exposure time with virtually zero gain for a HA DS full disk, i'll take that...
I sure wish I knew enough about the hardware involved to figure out where or how the grid is generated, be it software or hardware. Some people have no issue with IMX178 and IMX183 with sub-angstrom light and the results are excellent. But most people do have this issue. It just seems odd that there's a variable that we can't pinpoint that makes the difference. Because the IMX183 would be easily one of the best solar sensors at the moment if that could be figured out.

Very best,


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

I will send my technical contact at Touptek the patterned images.

If anyone has some, by accident, especially as FITS: I would be more than glad to forward them...

My email address: karsten at teleskop-spezialisten.de


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by MalVeauX »

Bastelhannes wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:09 pm I will send my technical contact at Touptek the patterned images.

If anyone has some, by accident, especially as FITS: I would be more than glad to forward them...

My email address: karsten at teleskop-spezialisten.de
Another user figured out the grid. It had to do with some pixels in a similar bayer matrix pattern (despite being a mono sensor) were brighter than others. It was a Sony problem. The fix went silent, but was solvable.

More info:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/6987 ... -squashed/

If this could be figured out for IMX178 & IMX183 globally it would be excellent.

Very best,


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Sol seeker uk »

EGRAY_OBSERVATORY wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:01 am WELL, THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN FOR MOST SOLAR/LUNAR PURPOSES - AND AS ACCURATE AS NEEDED.

DEEP-SKY IMAGING - DOES NOT APPLY TO SOLARCHAT SUBJECTS ON THIS WEBSITE, AS WILL SIMPLY FLOOD SOLARCHAT WITH UNWANTED MATERIAL...

TERRY
Oooh... Capitals...
Sorry but what you're talking about is sampling, which covers every part of imaging, night-time or daylight.. I'm confident that those tools are as accurate in daylight as they are at night.. pixels and focal length are used in both instances


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

"Oooh... Capitals.." - IS NOW DUE TO A SEVERE DISABILITY...

SORRY ABOUT THAT FOLKS

TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

Thank you for clarifying Terry.

First I was surprised about you using capitals. But a quick search showed every posting from you has capitals. Therefore I assumed there must be a reason for that, like seeing problems, specials software for writing, Braille translator, etc...

With this in mind it is much easier to understand your postings. An unknown reader might be offended (I learned ti the hard way in a different board, but there were different languages the problem.)

I want to take this opportunity to thank you all! I have never seen any board like this before. Everyone is very respectful and polite here; every one wants to help the others. No one is better than the others. We are all fighting with the same problems. I really enjoy coming to this board. It is like an island of well mannered people surrounded by a mad world.

Thank you...


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

IN THE EARLY DAYS OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS - IT WAS RARE, THAT LOWER-CASE LETTERS WERE EVER SENT ACROSS THE WORLD'S NUMEROUS LINKS, ESPECIALLY MILITARY, CIVIL AVIATION (INCLUDING AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL FACILITIES) AND A PLETHORA OF CIVILIAN COMMUNICATION NETWORKS.

IN FACT (MORE OFTEN THAN NOT) TELE-TYPEWRITERS AS USED ON THE TELEX AND OTHER LINKS, WERE NOT EVEN FITTED WITH LOWER-CASE LETTERS...

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-teleprompt ... al-letters SHOWS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE USE OF CAPITAL-LETTERS...

TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bill_C »

No need to apologize Terry it is great that you are able to participate on the forum again.
Bill


Lunt pressure tuned 60mm
Orion ST 80mm
Bausch and Lomb 90mm
Quark Chromosphere / 130mm ERF
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various Barlows and Filters
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Apollo M IMX 174m
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Apollo -M Max IMX 432m
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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by christian viladrich »

Hi Karten,
On my side, I would say we have now plenty of choice regarding cameras and sensors.

The breakthough will be with sensors able to fully use the usb 3.1 gen 2 interface with 10gbps. I am afraid this is something to deal with Sony.

Sensors with higher quantum efficiency in near UV would be great too. But again, this is something to deal with Sony, and not sensor integrators.


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

THANKS VM BILL AND GOOD TO BE ABLT TO.

REGARDS
TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT CHRISTIAN

TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by christian viladrich »

Glad to see you arround Terry. I hope you get better soon.


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

THANKS CHRISTIAN AND YES I AM STILL ARROUD FOR NOW

REGARDS
TERRY


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by Bastelhannes »

Just have had an interesting phone call with an expert working for LUNT formerly:

There are three parameters creating the pattern on the IMX178 and IMX183 sensor:
1. as Marty said: there seems to be a mask on the sensor and the red pixels are brighter than the others.
2. The distance between protection glass and sensor may cause a pattern
3. the thickness of the protection glass

This explains, why some do not experience these problems: the distances, thickness and the pixels do not add to a pattern due to specific parameters. Other cameras unfortunately are out of this tolerance and create these patterns...


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Re: Wishlist for solar camera

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

SOUDS ABOUT RIGHT KARTEN (FROM LUNT'S COMMENT)..

TERRY


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