What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

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What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Not sure if this is modding or commercial in nature?

However, what is wrong with my Baader TZ4 or is this normal?

Thanks to Stuart for the long loan (sorry) of the Howie glater laser.
I have found that my imaging train when using the SolarSpectrum is not straight. Using the laser I could see that my 3 pin camera holder was terrible, but also the 2" nose clamp was very short and had a horrible notch on the end and this could be wobbled really badly in the TEC focuser.

In a moment of head clarity last week I ordered a new 2" nose which was longer and straighter and only cost £22. I then used the Baader back as the camera clamp where it belongs. It was delivered yesterday and I was eager to test them both in the correct place.
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However I was very disappointed
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So I started at the beginning, basic 2"nose, camera clamp only
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straight
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Then the full set of extension tubes
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Then dangled a 0.5kg weight onto the extension tubes
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Then only the Baader TZ4
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Then only the Baader TZ3
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What is wrong with my Baader TZ4 and how do I fix it? Many thanks for your help.

Kind regards
Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by MalVeauX »

Hi,

What kind of airy disc and collimation pattern are you getting on that objective without anything in the imaging train?

Very best,


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Absolutely no idea, I've never looked.
Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by MalVeauX »

Montana wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:56 am Absolutely no idea, I've never looked.
Alexandra
I would start with that; a triplet that has its collimation off can cause issues. Before diagnosing your imaging train with the TZ-4, I would make sure the objective is collimated so you're not fighting that and rule out that the scope objective isn't the issue. Then work towards the TZ-4.

Very best,


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Dennis »

Congrats on successfully localizing the problematic component.
Can you see any slight misalignement of the tz4 lenses? Maybe ask at Baader directly what can be done.


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Why would the TZ3 be perfect then Marty?

Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Alexandra

First thing to do is rotate the whole assembly at the 2" adapter to the telescope, if the beam rotates around the centre then you know it is a mechanical problem with the fittings or the lenses.

It looks to me like the lens assembly is not seated correctly.

Or if you note on the pictures the TZ4 is not fully seated on the new 2" adapter like the TZ3, depending on the internal surface machined in the TZ4 that is seating on the 2" adapters threaded top or the top of the new 2" adapter not being square this could cause a slight tilt as the TZ4 should seat like the TZ3 fully down the tread, a slight tilt here will cause a massive movement of the laser beam.


To seat the lenses (I haven't taken one apart so not sure of the exact configuration but normally lenses are held by one lock ring), Loosen the lock ring slightly until the lenses are just loose, stand the unit upright with the lock ring at the top, now gently tap around the unit with your fingers ( you should hear the lenses move/rattle) this should settle the lenses on their seats, now just tighten the lock ring gently.

To fix the junction between the 2" adapter and the TZ4 you could try a thin T2 spacer between the two, an easy place to find one is the female thread inside a T2 camera adapter, these are normally removable by loosening the three screws around the outer of the camera adapter (normally used to position your T2 camera lens rotationally to the camera) you can then screw on this ring before the TZ4 as a spacer, then if you have enough threads left screw on the TZ4 and it should seat the setup square.
If this works then you could have some of the threads skimmed off the top of the new 2" adapter in a lathe until the front of the TZ4 seats on the face of the adapter like the TZ3 does, easy fix.

I think these are the most likely problems and I hope I have explained it well.
Rod


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

I have just tested it in the Technosky and it is exactly the same, surely both can't be out of collimation?
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Rod,
I'll just take a look

Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Rod, you are correct, as I turn the TZ4 around in the nose the laser circles round the dot.

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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

The new 2" nose looks like it fits nice on both TZ3 and T4, I'm not sure how you tell? I wouldn't like to do anything with the threads as it works well with the TZ3 and I had this same problem before the new nose.

Taking the TZ4 apart, that is starting to go beyond me :(

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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by RodAstro »

Then the problem is the TZ4 mechanical alignment.

Try either of the two I suggested easiest is the connection to the 2" adapter if you have a T2 camera adapter.

Rod


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Alexandra

The 2" adapter is bottoming out on the TZ4 threads because the TZ4 threads are not as deep as the TZ3s leaving a gap shown in your image below, this is not correct the front face of the TZ4 is the square face and the face below the threads on the 2" adapter is its square face, these should be in contact like on the TZ3 to square up the TZ4 with the adapter.
Your original adapter may be doing the same.
Attachments
TZ4 gap.jpg
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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Rod, the TZ4 has a rounded/bevelled edge, so I think this gap might be that? the TZ3 is completely flat edge. They seem to be both made completely different.

Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by marktownley »

Slacken off the 2" adapter (on end of TZ4 that goes into the TEC) like quarter / half turn and try again with the laser...


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by RodAstro »

Alexandra the only other thing then to check is the Baader click lock holding the laser is sitting square, try unscrewing it slowly and see if the laser makes a circle. I noticed it fits slightly different to the TZ3.
The threads may be to loose to tell though and it may just wobble about.

Cheers Rod


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Thanks guys:

Rod, picture 3 and 4 are the baader click lock and it is straight.

Mark, I tried slacking it off and it is exactly the same, not straight.

Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by marktownley »

Like Rod says, slacken the retaining rings off in the TZ4 lenses next and finger tight them back up.


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Ljungmann »

Try to put the TZ4 directly into Feather Touch Focuser without any adapter and test.


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Alexandra

It looks like it is easy to slacken the retaining ring as it is on top see pic.
you would be best using some pin pliers in the small holes on the retaining ring.
It only needs to be slackened then some gentle tapping on the outside of the unit whilst holding upright will settle the lenses.
Then as Mark says just tighten finger tight.
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TZ4 lock ring.jpg
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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

Thanks Rod, I have just been doing that as I found these pins. I have managed to get it near perfect doing it this way
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This happened on the 2nd jiggle try. I then tried again and it took another 5 jiggles to get back to this. I then got it perfect after another couple of jiggles, so tightened it up and it went way off again. I then spent another 5 tries to get it back to this at very loose. It is really hit and miss. Really I would need to laser calibrate it before each use which is not practical at all. What a fiddle!

Currently it is loose and nearly right so I hate to tighten it.

Is there a permanent fix or do I need to invest in a laser? Not a good product from Baader :(

Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by mdwmark »

Alexandra,
Get intouch with Baaders peoples and have them replace the part. Mr Baader really doesn't like it when something get sent out that is not to specs
Mark W.


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Alexandra

So glad you have found the problem even if it is not totally fixed yet.

As Mark W says give your supplier or Baader a call and get it replaced as it will probably irritate you anyway and they cost enough so should be correct.
It sounds like the lock ring has a bit of bad machining if it keeps going back to where it was, a few thousands of an inch out is all that is needed.

Hope it is sorted soon for you, not a good advert for Baader.

Cheers Rod


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Montana »

OK Thanks everyone for the help :)

Alexandra


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Astrograph »

Hi Everyone,

Alexandra has just contacted me about this. I originally supplied this TZ-4 to another client whom Alexandra purchased it from. As both are clients we will look into the issue.

I would point out to everyone that if you have a problem with something, talk to your supplier first before anything else. I accept that as an item bought used but even so, if you have a relationship with a supplier, ask them for their advice. In this case, while this TZ-4 does appear to have an issue, and one that would deem it 'unfit for purpose', it does not help if you have subsequently taken matters into your own hands and taken it apart on the advice of others. That voids any kind of warranty. Fortunately, as Alexandra has documented the testing process, we can hopefully negate that.

The Sale of Goods Act in the UK gives you 6 years to claim for a manufacturing defect. The rules for the EU are similar. As a business I honour those because reputation is everything.

Best Regards

Rupert Smith
Astrograph Ltd


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Carbon60 »

Montana wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:55 am OK Thanks everyone for the help :)

Alexandra
Hi Alexandra,

Glad the laser is proving useful. Please feel free to keep it until you obtain and test a replacement TZ-4.

Stu.


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Ljungmann »

This has been very interesting. I really respect Rupert point of view as a dealer. But Alexandras tests shows that we should look after tilt problems with our TZ4 or TZ2.
The talk had put me closer to nail my own problem with tilt in the system. I can see it with my 0.3Å SS filter but minor to Alexandras TZ4. And interesting note is that my 0.6Å Quantum filter is not much affected. It tells me that these extreme fitlers really need "more than straight light" to work perfectly.
But my dealer TS is great to work with if I need to replace the TZ4.


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Re: What is wrong with my Baader TZ4

Post by Astrograph »

Tilt with rear mounted filter systems is a common problem because the image train is always very long. That on its own will magnify problems.

This is not helped by the fact that many of the focusers out there have poor load capacity and resistance to tilt. I check all the scopes I sell and the amount which have sloppy focusers is unreal.

It is also not ideal, that after spending significant sums of money on filters and telecentrics etc, users then decide to rely on 2" nose pieces and compression clamps as a means to join everything together. This is the very worst way to connect such an image train (or test it for tilt!). These can work but will usual slip, move off axis or both. You should always use something that is either screw based or dovetail based. You then know everything is properly supported and should be on axis. The significant bending load on the TZ is also prevented.

Baader already offer such a set in the M68 Compendium ( https://astrograph.net/epages/www_astro ... AGBPM68COM ). It is viewed as expensive but it is only a small percent of what they have invested in everything else. You can also make up part of this kit from individual parts as the kit cost is not really a saving over doing that. I would advise this so the actual filter can be screwed in place rather than using a nose.

It is correct that tilt does also affect filters with narrow bandpass more. It has the same effect as using a barlow or a poor telecentric. Daystar suggest that at F25 a 0.5A filter will act more like a 0.7A. In reality it has been shown that despite the accepted wisdom of using F30, going above this will usually result in a slight reduction in the filters quoted bandpass. Getting the beam angle absolutely square to the filter is very worthwhile where imaging is concerned. Above F30 causes problems visually because the optical limits of eyepieces are already reached based on the 2x f ratio = optimum focal length of eyepiece for max sharpness / contrast.


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