Is imaging the sun still within reach?

[Dennis]

Detail, that most of us can only dream of!

But are we in an "arms race" with millionaires?

It seems that solar imagers must now go Double Stacked or go home.
Use much larger apertures.
Use larger, premium optics.
Afford unobtainable D-ERFs.
Use "collectable" vintage etalons.
Or image at high altitudes.
Own a private, mountainous island.
Preferably of limestone or white marble.
Or all of the above?

Do we have any amateur, balloon riding solar imagers in our midst?
Are tilting, solar tower telescopes shown in our stars?
That might actually be a valid way forward.
A couple of GRP flagpoles, some combine harvester twine...
and a large [quartz] optical flat should serve.

The "modern" equivalent of the PST Mod is sorely needed.
Just to bring solar imaging back within reach of many more of us.
Or are we all in need of an affordable, off-the-shelf SHG?

Did I forget to mention advanced skills?

A very interesting question.
But isnt this what is the "magic" about this hobby? Isnt this, what keeps us trying to push the limits? There is always something new to discover and to learn from others. This motivates me.
If we had all the perfect setup, environment and knowledge, it would be quite boring after one month i guess.

[Rusted]

A very interesting question.
But isn't this what is the "magic" about this hobby? Isn't this, what keeps us trying to push the limits? There is always something new to discover and to learn from others. This motivates me.
If we had all the perfect setup, environment and knowledge, it would be quite boring after one month i guess.

Thank you for that insight Dennis. I never saw it from that point of view.

[torsinadoc]

Interesting topic. I enjoy the HR images and am thankful people share them. I appreciate people push boundaries but I am pretty content with my low and medium resolution set up (I am 80% visual/sketching). All my equipment (except Cak) was purchased used. I wouldnt mind spending some decent money IF there was a guarantee it would meet my expectations. After getting kicked in the junk buying a "professional grade" etalon and taking more than a year to get it sorted, I am hesitant to purchase expensive Ha equipment again.

[DeepSolar64]

Michael,
You are fortunate to have had access to such fine equipment and facilities for so long and not having to drop a bunch of money on equipment. I would " milk that cow " for as long as possible. But I would save some money in case it should end so your hobby won't die.

James

[AJamesB]

[/quote]

I dream of that again. Of simpler more peaceful times under the Sun and stars.

James
[/quote]

This is where I tend to shoot myself in the foot. Be it deep space astrophotography, planetary or solar, the temptation for me is to push things so far that I'm at my near limit of complexity, and thus my near limit of mental energy required to 'enjoy' the hobby, and if I'm not careful I find myself doing it less and less simply because I've let the pursuit of perfection overcomplicate things and suck the simple joy out of it. I've been intentionally simplifying and even downgrading in areas, just to ensure I keep it simple enough to enjoy and continue doing. Upgrade fever is a real thing, and it can really ruin the satisfaction and joy we feel, whether we upgrade or not while sick with that fever, lol.

[DeepSolar64]

AJamesB,
I can see what you are saying. It becomes more like work than a hobby. It becomes laborsome. Imaging has always discouraged me a bit on that too with all the stacking, editing and processing and seeking more expensive equipment. Visual is more natural to me. But even visual is becoming more time consuming as we get well into Solar Cycle 25 as activity increases towards maximum. Anyone who follows my posts can see that they are getting bigger and more complex as I try to describe what I see. And then there is writing/typing notes down at the scope and getting online to find current images to assist me. Visual may end up not much easier than imaging. But I have a goal. Document SS 25 to the best of my ability be it completion or death! Solar Cycle 25 or bust!! I think a close friend of mine thinks I am an obsessed fanatic!

JamesP

[Valery]

I personally found this thread as a demotivator. Harmful for those who are not lazy and have potentions to move ahead or at least not give up, going back. I hope this was not Rusted's intention. But the thread has developed as a demotivator.

For those, who are followers of "relaxed" and "lazy" style of observing. I would suggest to buy one of these telescopes:
Lunt 80THa PT DS + bino + simple mount.
Lunt 60THa PT DS + bino + simple mount.
Two Lunt LS50FHa etalons (both front mounted, matched for DS) + B1200 + bino + simple mount

Coronado SM60 DS + BF10 + bino + simple mount.

You will see petty much all on the sun. As much as you have paid and according your efforts.

For those who are willing to move ahead, don't allow such/similar threads to demotivate you on your way ahead.
There are many ways you can go ahead and get on the territory of larger solar telescopes (larger than usual 6").
And far not all of these ways are very expensive. In fact, a dedicated 80mm solar telescope is more expensive than
optimized 8" Ha telescope with 0.5A to 0.3A bandwidth. Do not invent a bycicle! Just look around and you will see
such examples of 8" solar telescopes costs 3.3 - 3.5K.
See the photos taken with 3.5K setup. Do they look unconvinceable, Rusted?


Valery

[marktownley]

Sorry to hear this has demotivated you Valery. I guess we're all different people with all different priorities with our hobby!

[RodAstro]

Hi Valery
I Can't afford your "relaxed" and "lazy" style of observing" and I think many of us are below that level.
We do what we do and enjoy it.
I think "lazy" sounds a bit harsh in English, but I understand that may be due to translation.

Sometimes we have to step back and remember this is just a hobby and we should be enjoying it and part of that enjoyment is not feeling bad about what we can afford.

Rod

[DeepSolar64]

I can be lazy. I’ll admit it. I like minimal effort to achieve good results. I tend to stick with the familiar. But a part of me does desire more. It reminds me of yesterday talking to Alexandra during the meeting on imaging. On whether full disk or high rez. We both love high rez granulation and that takes good equipment, work and skill. She thought it could be a goal for me.

I do have a SMII60 and simple mounts. I do want a binoviewer though. I also usually use simple achros for solar. The AT72EDII is an occasional exception and I do have a SMII90 as well.

Concerning visual. How many people here really use their eyes to pick out fine detail? Most do a quick look I think. Visual also takes skill if seriously pursued. The sketchers here are a wonderful example of skilled visual observations. Better than my description work. Yep visual can be “ work “ too!!

My motto at work is “ Work smarter not harder “.

James

P.S. No insult taken Valery. Some of us are more driven than others.

[pupak]

After all, it's about having fun. It's not routine. It's great fun and it costs something.
Someone pays 10 thousand USD to travel around the world, we travel all the way to the Sun.
There is nothing more beautiful than the star that gave birth to us.

[DeepSolar64]

Well said Pupak!!

[thesmiths]

My simple "secret ingredient" to get the best imaging (at least where I am): wake up at dawn and setup up all equipment to image right as the Sun peaks over the local horizon (trees, mountains, preferably not too many houses). This is consistently the best seeing for me and after 90 minutes it is has degraded significantly. Waking up early makes the best use of the existing equipment investment, whatever that may be. This is true both for white light and H-alpha, in my experience.

[Rusted]

It was not my intention to demotivate anyone. More about questioning the escalating price of the equipment so essential to our hobby.

Ironic that the term "lazy" should come from an equipment dealer. One who piggybacks, free of charge, on this dedicated solar forum.
Are you pushing product again? Where is the "product placement" warning at the bottom of every post?

To list a series of instrument, which many here can only dream of, including myself.
Then to call the owners [and potential owners] "lazy" should surely demand a public apology! Or a forum ban!
This is one of the most nasty and negative things I can possibly imagine ever being posted on an equipment based forum.
It reeks of aperture snobbery by one who can easily afford it!

The larger instruments you tout here are always going to be at the mercy of the local seeing conditions.
Only those with such conditions on a regular basis would not be throwing large sums of money down the drain!

[rsfoto]

Interesting ...

[DeepSolar64]

TheSmiths,
It's surprising that the seeing is so good with you just after the sun rises. You are looking through such a thick layer of atmosphere. I generally have to let it rise a bit. Usually between 9am-10:30am I have the best seeing. The Sun is then high enough to be above looking so horizontally through the thick air and not yet late enough for the heating of the day to really kick in yet.

But every area is different.

And use your existing equipment to the max! I do.

James

[Rusted]

Best local seeing is not always at the same time of day for everybody.
My early morning imaging was lost to local trees.

Late afternoon is usually best for me.
Despite having been heated all day and a longer, atmospheric path length.

My rural situation [fields] and westerly trees avoid heated roofs.
Foliage is almost always cool to the touch.
Potted bushes or trees can be moved about to shield a sensitive area from the sun.
White sheets or tarpaulins can shield the local area from solar heating.

I think it is safe to say that seeing conditions are not reliable.
One should never assume that you have poor seeing without extensive trials.
Testing for one day or time is not enough just to give up.

Getting well above the ground works for me.
A wooden/plywood building does not heat up like metal and GRP.

[thesmiths]

It's surprising that the seeing is so good with you just after the sun rises. You are looking through such a thick layer of atmosphere. I generally have to let it rise a bit. Usually between 9am-10:30am I have the best seeing.

At the moment, sunrise in London is at 6:30m, but because of trees, the earliest I can image the sun is at 7:30am. Most recently, the best images came at around 8:00am, but that might be due to taking some time to get focusing right. By 9am, it was definitely a bit worse.

[Montana]

Please remember folks that we all speak different languages and English isn't always our first language. Please bear with those who may be using Google translate, sometimes the words that come out aren't always what we expect, so don't take offense at certain individual words, it could be an error in translation between languages. This is a friendly forum so we have to take things in an understanding way and give the benefit of the doubt.

Alexandra

[Radon86]

My simple "secret ingredient" to get the best imaging (at least where I am): wake up at dawn and setup up all equipment to image right as the Sun peaks over the local horizon (trees, mountains, preferably not too many houses). This is consistently the best seeing for me and after 90 minutes it is has degraded significantly. Waking up early makes the best use of the existing equipment investment, whatever that may be. This is true both for white light and H-alpha, in my experience.

I agree. But it means I would have to setup my telescopes on the front of my house, facing the main road. I can do it more discreetly by doing so in the driveway. I wish I had private grounds which would allow me to keep my setup in that position for imminent sunrise, although houses still block the first hour or so I think of the sun.
How about a sea view of the sun ???

Magnus

[Valery]

you made me smile when I read this. Sometimes I get very despondent because I bought a lot of stuff that costs a lot of money and most of it doesn't work, mainly because I don't have a degree and PhD in telescope engineering and optical physics. Maybe you could add this to the magical list it will probably cost a lot of money to get them all working properly too and I will need that money to heat the house this winter and afford diesel to get to work instead.

I was discussing this with Nic last Sunday. My dream would be to win the lottery, buy a piece of land on the Isle of Man, build a solar observatory and guest house and it would be free for any solarchatter to use at any time. Sadly, I never win the lottery

An off the shelf SHG would be great too, so long as it came with instructions for those without a PhD in the said above
Alexandra

Alexandra,

IMHO, you do not have any real reasons to be disappointed. Let me explain why I think so.

1. You do have a full line of necessary equipment for obtaining results which is equivalent to what best amateur solar imagers can obtain with their equipment. This is at least 50% of the task.

2. You do living in a mild climate - a third best for imaging in a warm season (April - October). You do have a nice grassy carpet at your backyard. So, a good seeing is not too rare at your area. This is at least 30% of the task.

3. Only 20% of the task remains to overcome.

50% of these last 20% is to learn how to keep your 11" SCT telescope at a good collimation and, if possible, to build or buy a pier instead of a shaky tripod of the present mount. The pier is needed to elevate the aperture above the ground layer of turbulence.
Last 10% is - to accomplish the lessons in image processing we have planned earlier.

The best images you was able to take with your 11" setup till now, showed me that you are in 2-3 small steps from a full success. You will sure do them.


Valery.

[DeepSolar64]

Alexandra, while I agree much with Valery I believe you are already there. You have won an award or two with your images and I do remember an image you did in white light of the granules a while back that was absolutely beautiful. I think it was an award winning picture. I really enjoy your images along with your other British imaging comrades!

James

[AJamesB]

I personally found this thread as a demotivator. Harmful for those who are not lazy and have potentions to move ahead or at least not give up, going back. I hope this was not Rusted's intention. But the thread has developed as a demotivator.

Valery

I don't see it as a demotivator, but more of recognizing one's limits on mental energy. Don't get me wrong, I love the pursuit and chase of detail and pushing my abilities and find great satisfaction in it. I've just also noticed that the more complex, energy consuming and time consuming something is to get going, on those days where I'm a little more tired, I'm a little less motivated to go through all the effort. I'm also always happy I did get giong after the fact, but I can't deny I'm getting older and my energy just isn't quite what it used to be when I was younger, lol.

For example, I cannot wait to where things settle down enough for you and your family and to where we can find a safe method of payment and shipping for the 11inch DERF! Do I think, after the fact, knowing myself, I maybe should have gone for the 8" instead of the 11" DERF, given how much extra work there is for me in setting up a much heavier and beefy mount+OTA+counter weights (I don't have the option for a permanent setup), the extra effort in keeping an 11" collimated vs an 8", temp equalization time between the 2 sizes, etc.? Sure. But I also know I'll still thoroughly enjoy using the 11inch, even if I use it a bit less than I might use an 8inch due to differences in energy and time for setup and breakdown.

But don't worry, I'm still plenty motivated to continue enjoying all aspects of astronomy and continuing the improving of my skills and acquisition/processing techniques! I've just dialed it back juuuust a touch to ensure its sustainable over the long run, and that it strikes the optimum balance between improvement and frequency of enjoyment.

And as always, I'm grateful for all of your input and hope you and your family are still well and safe, and that things settle down and become safer, much sooner than later, for you and everyone over there.

Stay safe my friend.

[Radon86]

I personally found this thread as a demotivator. Harmful for those who are not lazy and have potentions to move ahead or at least not give up, going back. I hope this was not Rusted's intention. But the thread has developed as a demotivator.

Valery

I don't see it as a demotivator, but more of recognizing one's limits on mental energy. Don't get me wrong, I love the pursuit and chase of detail and pushing my abilities and find great satisfaction in it. I've just also noticed that the more complex, energy consuming and time consuming something is to get going, on those days where I'm a little more tired, I'm a little less motivated to go through all the effort. I'm also always happy I did get giong after the fact, but I'm can't deny I'm getting older and my energy just isn't quite what it used to be when I was younger, lol.

For example, I cannot wait to where things settle down enough for you and your family and to where we can find a safe method of payment and shipping for the 11inch DERF! Do I think, after the fact, knowing myself, I maybe should have gone for the 8" instead of the 11" DERF, given how much extra work there is for me in setting up a much heavier and beefy mount+OTA+counter weights (I don't have the option for a permanent setup), the extra effort in keeping an 11" collimated vs an 8", temp equalization time between the 2 sizes, etc.? Sure. But I also know I'll still thoroughly enjoy using the 11inch, even if I use it a bit less than I might use an 8inch due to differences in energy and time for setup and breakdown.

But don't worry, I'm still plenty motivated to continue enjoying all aspects of astronomy and continuing the improving of my skills and acquisition/processing techniques! I've just dialed it back juuuust a touch to ensure its sustainable over the long run, and that it strikes the optimum balance between improvement and frequency of enjoyment.

And as always, I'm grateful for all of your input and hope you and your family are still well and safe, and that things settle down and become safer, much sooner than later, for you and everyone over there.

Stay safe my friend.

I agree with AJames. Don't forget, homo sapiens has just started imaging the sun for a nanosecond of its total existence or the creation of the sun 4.3 billion years ago. We (homo sapiens) has not evolved to a higher state of complete dedication to solar imaging yet.

[rigel123]

Always interesting to read different opinions on a subject such as this. I bought my LS60 10 years ago and finally bought the DS unit for it nearly 6 years later. I almost moved on a new 80mm Lunt and Lunt was going to give me an amazing trade in deal, but my enjoyment in this hobby is catching those rare phenomena such as post flare loops, prom lift offs, etc in animations that I can capture all with my current equipment, so that is my motivation in this hobby. I enjoy the high res images seen on this forum that I'll never duplicate, but those same folks might miss the delicate details of a post flare loop that I happen to capture in an animation to share for their enjoyment.

[DeepSolar64]

And today one can image the Sun without equipment at all. Using the internet!! With GONG, SDO and especially the KSO and SLOOH!! It may not be the same as imaging with your own equipment but you learn about the sun and can follow it’s day to day activities just the same.

And three out of four of these options are entirely free of charge!!

And an online tool available free online can enable one to work with and layer the SDO images and do animations from them. Surprisingly I see few use it here. They are Helioviewer.org and JHelioviewer which can be downloaded for free.

[steveward53]

And an online tool available free online can enable one to work with and layer the SDO images and do animations from them. Surprisingly I see few use it here. They are Helioviewer.org and JHelioviewer which can be downloaded for free.
[/quote]

I highly recommend JHelioviewer .

It's a great tool that uses all the available SDO , HMI and EVE data and is extremely easy to use.

I use it regularly to archive rapidly appearing regions such as this one that popped up overnight ...

https://youtu.be/kj-AwNHBqJM

[DeepSolar64]

Very nice JHelioviewer animation Steve!! It works!

[DeepSolar64]

Now if they could only get the Coronado PST back down to 500 US dollars like it was 10 years ago! That would help people get into Ha solar. And get the price of CaK filters down to their former levels.

Really only white light continuum is easily available for those strapped by cash. Solar should not be an elite club!