Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

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Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Averton »

Something that we have been wanting to try for some time is to guide using our night time guide scope, so we made a white light filter for it.
The software we used for the guiding is the same as we use for capturing which is ZWO ASICAP. It allows you to guide on a planet which in this case, is the sun. You can do it from the primary camera provided it is full disk, but it will adversely affect the capture rate. Instead we split the guiding and capturing to two separate computers, the primary capture computer has just got the main camera attached at USB3.0. The guiding computer is running the mount via KStars / Ekos and a second instance of ASICAP doing the guiding via the guide camera's ST4 port.

Even though our mount is reasonably polar aligned, there is normally some drift over time. This set up held the image central for a full hour but unfortunately the animation is only 30 minutes as the disk space had run out!

Guide scope set up
P1100246 small.JPG
P1100246 small.JPG (188.41 KiB) Viewed 4365 times
The resultant animation
2022-11-9 NW prom animation.gif
2022-11-9 NW prom animation.gif (5.06 MiB) Viewed 4365 times


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by thesmiths »

That looks really good. Does it really slow down the capture to have guiding and capture on the same computer? The guide camera runs on USB 2.0 and you could do binning and even limit the frame rate. You don't need very high resolution or a very fast update. You might be able to run two separate instances of the same program or use different different programs.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by marktownley »

Good result!


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Averton »

thesmiths wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:31 pm That looks really good. Does it really slow down the capture to have guiding and capture on the same computer? The guide camera runs on USB 2.0 and you could do binning and even limit the frame rate. You don't need very high resolution or a very fast update. You might be able to run two separate instances of the same program or use different different programs.
Yes it is quite possible to do the lot from a single computer and ASICAP is happy to have a number of instances open at the same time. Although doing it this way doesn't hugely slow the primary capture rate, it definitely have some effect. As our capture camera is 6MP at 60FPS, we are pushing the 5Gb/s limit of USB3.0 and due to the amount of data we have to save to an external USB3.0 SSD, it works best to use the second computer for the guiding and mount control.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Averton »

marktownley wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:44 am Good result!
Thanks Mark.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by thesmiths »

Averton wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:24 am As our capture camera is 6MP at 60FPS, we are pushing the 5Gb/s limit of USB3.0 and due to the amount of data we have to save to an external USB3.0 SSD, it works best to use the second computer for the guiding and mount control.
It's possible every computer is different and it might depend on the age and speed of the hardware. But in general, each USB 3.0 interface has it's own bandwidth allocated (as long as it's a motherboard port and not a hub). Also, for guiding, you don't need to write any data. From my experience, I can run a ZWO USB 3.0 camera at full FPS and connect the mount using EQMOD and an auto focuser via the capture software (both USB 2.0) and all seems to work ok on the same computer.

By the way, you can generally get faster SSD write speeds via a USB-C port than USB 3.0, and even faster using an internal NVMe SSD. But I have found in general, the data speed is limited by the camera itself, not the computer or the USB interfaces.

Also worth noting, I would try to properly use the VRAM feature of the capture software (both FireCapture and SharpCap [paid version] have this; I suspect ASICAP does not). I found this feature is quite critical for getting glitch free capture of very high speed file capture. What the program does is reserve a percentage of the computer's DRAM as a temporary disk (typically say 8GB out of 16GB). It then stores the data there before eventually writing to the SSD. The VRAM is probably 100x faster than the SSD. But you have to be careful then about the file size not exceeding by much the VRAM size that's been allocated, and also I found it's best to wait a few seconds before starting a new file capture to allow the capture program to write the data and empty the VRAM.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Averton »

thesmiths wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:31 pm
Averton wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:24 am As our capture camera is 6MP at 60FPS, we are pushing the 5Gb/s limit of USB3.0 and due to the amount of data we have to save to an external USB3.0 SSD, it works best to use the second computer for the guiding and mount control.
It's possible every computer is different and it might depend on the age and speed of the hardware. But in general, each USB 3.0 interface has it's own bandwidth allocated (as long as it's a motherboard port and not a hub). Also, for guiding, you don't need to write any data. From my experience, I can run a ZWO USB 3.0 camera at full FPS and connect the mount using EQMOD and an auto focuser via the capture software (both USB 2.0) and all seems to work ok on the same computer.

By the way, you can generally get faster SSD write speeds via a USB-C port than USB 3.0, and even faster using an internal NVMe SSD. But I have found in general, the data speed is limited by the camera itself, not the computer or the USB interfaces.

Also worth noting, I would try to properly use the VRAM feature of the capture software (both FireCapture and SharpCap [paid version] have this; I suspect ASICAP does not). I found this feature is quite critical for getting glitch free capture of very high speed file capture. What the program does is reserve a percentage of the computer's DRAM as a temporary disk (typically say 8GB out of 16GB). It then stores the data there before eventually writing to the SSD. The VRAM is probably 100x faster than the SSD. But you have to be careful then about the file size not exceeding by much the VRAM size that's been allocated, and also I found it's best to wait a few seconds before starting a new file capture to allow the capture program to write the data and empty the VRAM.
Thanks. The VRAM option isn't implemented in ASICAP but ASICAP runs the best under Linux, so that's what we use. We'll give it another run (if we ever see the sun again [worst year in history for bad weather on the east coast of Australia]) with everything running on one computer and see how it goes.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Radon86 »

Veru interesting. I never tried ASZiCAP before.
I think Firecapture may have guiding functionality, and GreatAttractor (Filip) did use specialised solar tracking software for his prom animations recently.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by GreatAttractor »

I use Vidoxide, see this video for a short demo. Though I haven't created a Windows build yet (had some problems with the Spinnaker camera driver not working, unlike on Linux), in principle the program should work with any ASCOM-visible mount, and supports ZWO cameras as well.

But since FireCapture has the same auto-guiding feature and is better-tested, it's probably simpler to just use that.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Averton »

Radon86 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:06 pm Veru interesting. I never tried ASZiCAP before.
I think Firecapture may have guiding functionality, and GreatAttractor (Filip) did use specialised solar tracking software for his prom animations recently.
Yes FireCapture does have guiding and would work just the same in our set up. We just use ASICAP because it works best with Linux.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Rob63 »

GreatAttractor wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:18 pm I use Vidoxide, see this video for a short demo. Though I haven't created a Windows build yet (had some problems with the Spinnaker camera driver not working, unlike on Linux), in principle the program should work with any ASCOM-visible mount, and supports ZWO cameras as well.

But since FireCapture has the same auto-guiding feature and is better-tested, it's probably simpler to just use that.
That is looking great Filip, I will definitely be trying it when you have a windows build available.


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Radon86 »

Hi Clare and Peter,

I would be grateful if you can post details (as much as you wish) on how you mounted the guidescope, as I have not seen it before). It looks like a M5 or M6 screw fits onto the main tube rings, and there is a small circular tube spacer which fits over the screw hole on the rings. Then there is an improvised type of aluminium or steel dovetail which is clamped on by the guidescope/guidescope tube ring mounting.


[Even though our mount is reasonably polar aligned, there is normally some drift over time. This set up held the image central for a full hour but unfortunately the animation is only 30 minutes as the disk space had run out!] - you could polar align the previous night and let the mount settle there (only possible if good weather or high pressure) or you are willing to cover up if there is rain or unstable weather. Or use Firecapture or other guiding software which you have used here.
guidescope-mounting.png
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Thanks,
Magnus


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Radon86 »

Rob63 wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:45 pm
GreatAttractor wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:18 pm I use Vidoxide, see this video for a short demo. Though I haven't created a Windows build yet (had some problems with the Spinnaker camera driver not working, unlike on Linux), in principle the program should work with any ASCOM-visible mount, and supports ZWO cameras as well.

But since FireCapture has the same auto-guiding feature and is better-tested, it's probably simpler to just use that.
That is looking great Filip, I will definitely be trying it when you have a windows build available.
Hi Filip,
I checked your github/vidoxide software, and it says there is a Windows build available now. Is this correct ? I would like to try your vidoxide software if it is. Or maybe I can adapt it or build upon it ?!

Magnus


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by GreatAttractor »

No, I haven't published any binaries. But compiling from sources is straightforward, I'd be happy to assist.


My software:
Stackistry — an open-source cross-platform image stacker
ImPPG — stack post-processing and animation alignment
My images

SW Mak-Cass 127, ATM Hα scopes (90 mm, 200 mm), Lunt LS50THa, ATM SSM, ATM Newt 300/1500 mm, PGR Chameleon 3 mono (ICX445)
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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by Averton »

Radon86 wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:02 am Hi Clare and Peter,

I would be grateful if you can post details (as much as you wish) on how you mounted the guidescope, as I have not seen it before). It looks like a M5 or M6 screw fits onto the main tube rings, and there is a small circular tube spacer which fits over the screw hole on the rings. Then there is an improvised type of aluminium or steel dovetail which is clamped on by the guidescope/guidescope tube ring mounting.

[Even though our mount is reasonably polar aligned, there is normally some drift over time. This set up held the image central for a full hour but unfortunately the animation is only 30 minutes as the disk space had run out!] - you could polar align the previous night and let the mount settle there (only possible if good weather or high pressure) or you are willing to cover up if there is rain or unstable weather. Or use Firecapture or other guiding software which you have used here.

Thanks,
Magnus
Hi Magnus,

You have sussed out the set up fairly well. Only the bolts used are 1/4" x 20 as the tube rings for the scope have 1/4"x20 holes already there for camera mounting. The tubular spacer is 16mm diameter, 1mm wall thickness aluminium tubing that we bought from our local hardware store in Australia. The long section is not a dovetail, it is simply 12mm hollow aluminium square section with 1mm wall thickness, again from the hardware store, that has two holes tapped 1/4" x 20 which then has two bolts screwed through it to hold the guide scope mounting. The spacing of those two holes is to match the spacing of our other refractor, which is a 72ED. The guide scope is actually a finder scope with the rear diagonal and eyepiece removed and a 3D printed adapter to accept the ASI120MM guide camera. The guide scope holder with its rings and base are actually made from laser cut plywood parts. Each part is 3 laminations of 3mm poplar plywood which cut on our laser cutter. Attached is a picture of the guide scope arrangement before painting, fitted on the 72ED. Hopefully this will clarify the construction.

P1070248 small.jpg
P1070248 small.jpg (965.29 KiB) Viewed 3162 times
What you suggest regarding polar alignment is quite true, but we find that with our marked out location for the mount plus the guiding its more than enough for a couple of hours of time lapse captures.
Hope this is of help.

Regards
Clare & Peter


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Re: Solar guiding using ordinary guide scope

Post by pfossier »

Thanks for the post; I am trying to do exactly the same. Would you post some details about how you connected your setup ?
ie: I see you have 2 cables coming out of your guiding camera but the guiding happens on your guiding laptop.

I was picturing, the camera being connected to your laptop with a USB-C - USB-C or USB-A cable and the guiding instructions
going a USB cable from your laptop to the mount via a USB-to-ST4 cable.

The picture of your setup suggests otherwise.
Would you mind explaining further ?
Thank you,
phil


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