Rusted wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:22 pmAre you thinking of ribs like an air-cooled motorcycle?
Wouldn't that require a forced airflow to offer increased cooling?
Radial fins could have an external [tubular] cowl to take advantage of a larger fan.
A slitting saw in a mill would cut them.
Or the disk mounted on a pivot on the top slide, or milling attachment, in the lathe with dividing disk or head.
Using wood/plywood instead of metal in a skeletal solar refractor might be more thermally neutral.
With suitable design it could be as stiff as metal.
Fortunately the objective tends to cast a solid shadow on the relatively massive baffles involved here.
The light cone should avoid hitting the baffles. To avoid warming them with the focused beam.
Painting the baffles black should only be done on the rear side. To avoid heating effects as much as possible.
Polished aluminium has high reflectivity.
PS. None of my suggestions should be thought of as criticism of this fine project. I am just thinking aloud.
First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
http://fullerscopes.blogspot.dk/
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Hi Chris,Rusted wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:22 pmAre you thinking of ribs like an air-cooled motorcycle?
Wouldn't that require a forced airflow to offer increased cooling?
Radial fins could have an external [tubular] cowl to take advantage of a larger fan.
A slitting saw in a mill would cut them.
Or the disk mounted on a pivot on the top slide, or milling attachment, in the lathe with dividing disk or head.
Using wood/plywood instead of metal in a skeletal solar refractor might be more thermally neutral.
With suitable design it could be as stiff as metal.
Fortunately the objective tends to cast a solid shadow on the relatively massive baffles involved here.
The light cone should avoid hitting the baffles. To avoid warming them with the focused beam.
Painting the baffles black should only be done on the rear side. To avoid heating effects as much as possible.
Polished aluminium has high reflectivity.
PS. None of my suggestions should be thought of as criticism of this fine project. I am just thinking aloud.
Yes, but even so some air flow is always there and we are not alking about heat amunt in terms of a engine.
Look at the ribs the camera has. The question here is, is it just an optical make it nicer or do they really help to cool the camera.
I just designed a manifold which would go over the end of the camera with a 50mm fan on it which would take advantage of the factory ribs (grey drawing) and I just started printing the first prototype.
The other cooling aid I just finished yesterday look like in the images. The heat sink is 40x40mm and then one could even sandwich a TEC inbetween the heat sink and the camera body.
regards Rainer
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Observatorio Real de 14
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Good point Rainer, another cloudy day project is pending
H alpha : ,Skywatcher 120mm F8 open frame refractor, a tilted 2" 7nm H-alpha filter as a sub energy rejection filter, Baader TZ4 telecentric focal extender, Player One energy rejection filter, Combo Quark Chromosphere, Naked PST etalon for double stacking, ASI74mm camera
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Hi Martin,
Just running a cooling test on that tiny camera after applying a thermal pad 0.5mm thick.
ROI 320x240 at a speed of 173 frames per second. Temperature of sensor according to sharpcap ~30°C cooler not active.
After connecting the cooler the temperature went down to ~25°C at an ambient temprature in my room of about ~20°C.
Was it worth ? I do not know ...
BTW the heat sink has 111 ribs and that gives a surface of about 154cm²
Just running a cooling test on that tiny camera after applying a thermal pad 0.5mm thick.
ROI 320x240 at a speed of 173 frames per second. Temperature of sensor according to sharpcap ~30°C cooler not active.
After connecting the cooler the temperature went down to ~25°C at an ambient temprature in my room of about ~20°C.
Was it worth ? I do not know ...
BTW the heat sink has 111 ribs and that gives a surface of about 154cm²
regards Rainer
Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico
North 22° West 101°
Observatorio Real de 14
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North 22° West 101°
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
It's not fair!
Rainer is using alien technology!
Rainer is using alien technology!
http://fullerscopes.blogspot.dk/
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Very nice work Martin.
We'll also be interested to hear the outcome of your camera cooling.
We'll also be interested to hear the outcome of your camera cooling.
Clare & Peter
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
I think of the heat sink cooling fins on the top of outdoor LED fixtures that we assemble at work.
Rainer IS an alien!! An alien engineer!
Rainer IS an alien!! An alien engineer!
Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces
Visual Observer
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Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Rusted, you have raised some great points regarding alternatives to an Aluminum construction. Anti reflection felt on the rear of the center baffle is on my to do list.Rusted wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:22 pmAre you thinking of ribs like an air-cooled motorcycle?
Wouldn't that require a forced airflow to offer increased cooling?
Radial fins could have an external [tubular] cowl to take advantage of a larger fan.
A slitting saw in a mill would cut them.
Or the disk mounted on a pivot on the top slide, or milling attachment, in the lathe with dividing disk or head.
Using wood/plywood instead of metal in a skeletal solar refractor might be more thermally neutral.
With suitable design it could be as stiff as metal.
Fortunately the objective tends to cast a solid shadow on the relatively massive baffles involved here.
The light cone should avoid hitting the baffles. To avoid warming them with the focused beam.
Painting the baffles black should only be done on the rear side. To avoid heating effects as much as possible.
Polished aluminium has high reflectivity.
PS. None of my suggestions should be thought of as criticism of this fine project. I am just thinking aloud.
Martin
H alpha : ,Skywatcher 120mm F8 open frame refractor, a tilted 2" 7nm H-alpha filter as a sub energy rejection filter, Baader TZ4 telecentric focal extender, Player One energy rejection filter, Combo Quark Chromosphere, Naked PST etalon for double stacking, ASI74mm camera
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Hi Clare and Peter , yesterday I compared the phone cooler with my old home made Peltier cooler.
Here are the results with my ASI174mm camera
Ambient patio temperature, with no breeze 28 degrees Celsius.
The phone cooler maintained the chip temperature at 42 degrees Celsius over a 30 minute period,
My old home made Peltier cooler brought the Chip temperature down from 42 decrees Celsius to 39 decrees Celsius.
If I don't use cooling the chip temperature will rise to around 50 degrees Celsius in the summer heat.
I have some more magnetic pads on order and will be testing the magnetic phone cooler again when they arrive, as less metal between the cooling module and the camera body might be more effective in dissipating heat from the camera casing.
Martin
H alpha : ,Skywatcher 120mm F8 open frame refractor, a tilted 2" 7nm H-alpha filter as a sub energy rejection filter, Baader TZ4 telecentric focal extender, Player One energy rejection filter, Combo Quark Chromosphere, Naked PST etalon for double stacking, ASI74mm camera
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Hi Rainer, thanks for your test results I will have to test my home made cooler at room temperature and compare the results.rsfoto wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:37 pm Hi Martin,
Just running a cooling test on that tiny camera after applying a thermal pad 0.5mm thick.
ROI 320x240 at a speed of 173 frames per second. Temperature of sensor according to sharpcap ~30°C cooler not active.
After connecting the cooler the temperature went down to ~25°C at an ambient temprature in my room of about ~20°C.
Was it worth ? I do not know ...
BTW the heat sink has 111 ribs and that gives a surface of about 154cm²
Martin
H alpha : ,Skywatcher 120mm F8 open frame refractor, a tilted 2" 7nm H-alpha filter as a sub energy rejection filter, Baader TZ4 telecentric focal extender, Player One energy rejection filter, Combo Quark Chromosphere, Naked PST etalon for double stacking, ASI74mm camera
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Careful Martin. OCD is highly contagious!
http://fullerscopes.blogspot.dk/
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
That's why I don't play golf
H alpha : ,Skywatcher 120mm F8 open frame refractor, a tilted 2" 7nm H-alpha filter as a sub energy rejection filter, Baader TZ4 telecentric focal extender, Player One energy rejection filter, Combo Quark Chromosphere, Naked PST etalon for double stacking, ASI74mm camera
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Martin_S wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:18 pmHi Clare and Peter , yesterday I compared the phone cooler with my old home made Peltier cooler.
Here are the results with my ASI174mm camera
Ambient patio temperature, with no breeze 28 degrees Celsius.
The phone cooler maintained the chip temperature at 42 degrees Celsius over a 30 minute period,
My old home made Peltier cooler brought the Chip temperature down from 42 decrees Celsius to 39 decrees Celsius.
If I don't use cooling the chip temperature will rise to around 50 degrees Celsius in the summer heat.
I have some more magnetic pads on order and will be testing the magnetic phone cooler again when they arrive, as less metal between the cooling module and the camera body might be more effective in dissipating heat from the camera casing.
Martin
Hi Martin,
Are you sure to spend more money on magnetic pads instead of getting a heat sink and a 12V fan ?
I doubt thephone coolers vibrate less then the normal fans.
Your camera gets quite hot compared to my ASI 120MM.
I am redesigning the cooler shown here for use with a 50mm fan.
Do you also print 3D ?
Last edited by rsfoto on Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
regards Rainer
Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico
North 22° West 101°
Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico
North 22° West 101°
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Rainer, you might find this page interesting regarding Player One active coolers for planetary cameras.
https://player-one-astronomy.com/produc ... d-cameras/
They state a reading of about 7 degrees Celsius above ambient for active cooled camera.
I tested my phone cooler with larger thermal pads with my large plate mount and got a constant chip temperature reading of 10 degrees above ambient which at the time of testing was 28 degrees.
I am working on better heat transfer options, your suggestion of fins on the mounting plate could be on the cards.
I don't print 3D.
Thank you for your input and suggestions.
Martin
https://player-one-astronomy.com/produc ... d-cameras/
They state a reading of about 7 degrees Celsius above ambient for active cooled camera.
I tested my phone cooler with larger thermal pads with my large plate mount and got a constant chip temperature reading of 10 degrees above ambient which at the time of testing was 28 degrees.
I am working on better heat transfer options, your suggestion of fins on the mounting plate could be on the cards.
I don't print 3D.
Thank you for your input and suggestions.
Martin
H alpha : ,Skywatcher 120mm F8 open frame refractor, a tilted 2" 7nm H-alpha filter as a sub energy rejection filter, Baader TZ4 telecentric focal extender, Player One energy rejection filter, Combo Quark Chromosphere, Naked PST etalon for double stacking, ASI74mm camera
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Thanks Martin.Martin_S wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:18 pmHi Clare and Peter , yesterday I compared the phone cooler with my old home made Peltier cooler.
Here are the results with my ASI174mm camera
Ambient patio temperature, with no breeze 28 degrees Celsius.
The phone cooler maintained the chip temperature at 42 degrees Celsius over a 30 minute period,
My old home made Peltier cooler brought the Chip temperature down from 42 decrees Celsius to 39 decrees Celsius.
If I don't use cooling the chip temperature will rise to around 50 degrees Celsius in the summer heat.
I have some more magnetic pads on order and will be testing the magnetic phone cooler again when they arrive, as less metal between the cooling module and the camera body might be more effective in dissipating heat from the camera casing.
Martin
After seeing your camera cooler nearly two months ago, we made a cooler of our own for our 178MM camera. It is definitely very effective in reducing the sensor temperature by about 10 degrees from ambient. We have found that the 178MM runs about 10C cooler than the 174MM and both cameras cool down considerably when taking still images (for flats) compared to taking video. We have been hesitant to report back without having collected a good amount of testing data so over the last month or so we have been imaging with the fan on and the fan off. Even though, as is evident in the picture, we made rubber mounting for the fan, we can definitely report that vibration in the images is an issue. The negative results can be easily seen in the images on occasion but the AS!3 quality figure is reduced in the fan on images. The degree of visual impact is variable and thus far we have not determined the reason for this but some possibilities are the orientation of the fan rotational axis, the over hang of the optical train past the focuser being influenced by orientation (we don't have a stabilising bar going back toward the camera as in your set up - something to consider) ... there will be others.
Interestingly on page 35 of the Australian Sky & Telescope magazine Jan/Feb 2023 issue, there is an ad for a Player One add on fan for their high speed cameras. https://player-one-astronomy.com/produc ... d-cameras/
This ad mentions magnetic levitation bearing fans which lead us down another interesting rabbit hole.
First of all we found this fan that claims magnetic levitation bearings from Altronics.
https://www.altronics.com.au/p/f0010a-s ... aring-fan/
Then we found a claimed to be superior fan from Scorptec
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/coo ... gJxd_D_BwE
Then confirmation that there is real issues with fan vibration and imaging came in a DSO forum
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/7656 ... nt-thread/
This thread is very interesting and basically mentions the two fans we had already found plus another one called Fractal Design.
These have all been tried as replacement fans in pro-cooled cameras but at high focal ratios don't seem to be 100% effective at solving the vibration issue. The person who started the thread eventually wrapped around 250g of lead flashing around the end of the camera (pro-cooled probably a 410g camera) to help absorb the vibration. Our pro-cooled camera is four times the weight of our mono solar cameras so the chances of absorbing vibration doesn't look good.
We are now testing the camera with just the peltier and heat sink attached which obviously solves the vibration issue and our images have improved but the cooling now only reduces the sensor temperature by 5 degrees. The heat sink gets quite hot (yet to measure the temperature) but probably around 50C. We are now looking for a better heat sink.
Clare & Peter
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Does cooling a camera make much difference in solar imaging? I can see it, especially in the summer months being used.
Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
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Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Hi Lames,DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:36 am Does cooling a camera make much difference in solar imaging? I can see it, especially in the summer months being used.
It is not for camera performance like in DSO imageing it is for camera survival.
50C is about the upper end of the spec for many of the electronic components.
In summer here it is not too hard to get 50C in the camera
Clare & Peter
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
It seems too obvious to suggest that the fan can be switched off during the relatively short video captures we normally use.
Then switched back on afterwards to return to active cooling.
Water cooling should be vibration free but I know almost nothing on this subject so far.
Extensions to support the cantilevered camera and long filter stack [probably] ought to have been adopted as standard by now.
Not least for collimation purposes to kill the inevitable sag. Slight difficulties arise from OTA rotation on our equatorial mountings.
Then switched back on afterwards to return to active cooling.
Water cooling should be vibration free but I know almost nothing on this subject so far.
Extensions to support the cantilevered camera and long filter stack [probably] ought to have been adopted as standard by now.
Not least for collimation purposes to kill the inevitable sag. Slight difficulties arise from OTA rotation on our equatorial mountings.
http://fullerscopes.blogspot.dk/
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
H-alpha: Baader 160mm D-ERF, iStar 150/10 H-alpha objective, 2" Baader 35nm H-a, 2" Beloptik KG3,
Lunt 60MT etalon, Lunt B1200S2 BF, Assorted T-S GPCs or 2x "Shorty" Barlow, ZWO ASI174.
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
My PGR Grasshopper gets really hot in the summer when the temperature outside exceeds 28C.
Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces
Visual Observer
" Way more fun to see it! "
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces
Visual Observer
" Way more fun to see it! "
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Yes, it is quite feasible to manually turn off the cooling when taking a video, but if you are doing batch captures for an animation over an hour or more, you really need the software to turn on and off the cooling. Presently this is not offered.Rusted wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:52 am It seems too obvious to suggest that the fan can be switched off during the relatively short video captures we normally use.
Then switched back on afterwards to return to active cooling.
Water cooling should be vibration free but I know almost nothing on this subject so far.
Extensions to support the cantilevered camera and long filter stack [probably] ought to have been adopted as standard by now.
Not least for collimation purposes to kill the inevitable sag. Slight difficulties arise from OTA rotation on our equatorial mountings.
Clare & Peter
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Re: First light, open frame refractor 04-12-22
Hi,
Honestly speaking vibration interference is overrated ...
Just because one single guy on Cloudynights, the biggest Astronomy Gossip forum , thought to have problems with vibrations, now everybody gets paranoid about vibration ...
Do you really think the camera producers care about the fans they install ?
Look at the ridiculous adding of the rubber washers on the ZWO cameras which exactly do nothing about vibration reduction ...
Now Chris aka Rusted here mentioned a much more serious problem which is how the air flows ...
I have been doing a lot lately about cooling and have to say more important is air flow contention or direction or whatever word is correct.
I am going to revive my vibration sensor and look at some fans I have here or maybe I should take more time making Sun images and at night pretty pictures
Honestly speaking vibration interference is overrated ...
Just because one single guy on Cloudynights, the biggest Astronomy Gossip forum , thought to have problems with vibrations, now everybody gets paranoid about vibration ...
Do you really think the camera producers care about the fans they install ?
Look at the ridiculous adding of the rubber washers on the ZWO cameras which exactly do nothing about vibration reduction ...
Now Chris aka Rusted here mentioned a much more serious problem which is how the air flows ...
I have been doing a lot lately about cooling and have to say more important is air flow contention or direction or whatever word is correct.
I am going to revive my vibration sensor and look at some fans I have here or maybe I should take more time making Sun images and at night pretty pictures
regards Rainer
Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico
North 22° West 101°
Observatorio Real de 14
San Luis Potosi Mexico
North 22° West 101°