Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I am curious to see how this works out. This should arouse the curiosity of engineering folks and tinkerers on this site.

James


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by marktownley »

How is this going to make a model of a sunspot with 100 plasma torches?

Without a little more infomation I have to be honest this seems completly far fetched... :roll:


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

GlobalInnovator,
Sunspots are basically exit and entrance points where magnetic flux tubes stick above the photosphere. They inhibit the flow of heat from the interior making them a bit cooler hence darker than the surrounding photosphere. They also inhibit the granule formation there too. Penumbral filaments ( fibrils ) radiate outward from the darker cooler umbra.

You would have to create flux tubes within the plasma I would think. How would you do this? Obviously strong magnetic fields are needed. How would you control the plasma? Here I am thinking of putting a strong magnetic field within the plasma. Somehow I think of a bar magnet shaping iron filings on a piece of paper. The loops around the magnet would represent the magnetic field, the flux tubes and the iron filings the plasma. Where they interact with the ends ( poles ) of the magnets is where the spots would be. This is VERY simplified of course. Sunspot magnetic fields are localized of course. The Sun does have a global magnetic field. A very strong one.

Another thing that comes to mind with controlling plasma is the ongoing field of magnetically controlled fusion research. The most common approach is to use a torus, called a Tokamak to contain super hot plasma that is shaped and controlled by magnetic coils, often huge ones and often supercooled so they can achieve superconductive properties. I have never heard of an amateur making even a small tokamak. The smallest one I know of is the GOLEM tokamak operated as an educational tool by the Czech Technical University. Magnetically confined Fusion's ultimate goal is power generation. Look up ITER. We do have a member, Daniele Bonfiglio, who is a scientist who studies magnetically confined plasmas.

http://golem.fjfi.cvut.cz/wiki/

Your torches create the plasma. Now you need magnets to shape it! To create a cool spot. The more specifics you give here the more other members can suggest ideas. This is not exactly a common build or mod here!

Are you a member of the Global Innovator group/forum? I notice your username.

Good luck on this endeavor. It sounds interesting. Also when I think of the AAVSO I think of the late Leslie Peltier. He was a great observer of variable stars and an AAVSO member and also discovered quite a number of comets.

James
Last edited by DeepSolar64 on Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by marktownley »

GlobalInnovator wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:54 pm It's easy
We need plasma, a lot of plasma stream to turn it into plasma jet in the strong magnetic field.

Looking for manufacturers of large power plasma burners, generators

What comes next is plasma control to make it dense in the magnetic field to create magnetic strings made of plasma.

Looking for Plasma R&D Scientific Center ( plasma - ion engine or the like) to generate dense stream of hot plasma, injecting specific gases to make it look dense in white light.
Sounds simple in theory? :roll:

Good luck.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by Carbon60 »

You would probably have more luck using a plasma ball lamp, modified in some way to show what you’re trying to demonstrate. These are inexpensive and readily available.
5EBD6E00-4E05-4E75-9502-E51588BB5D9F.jpeg
5EBD6E00-4E05-4E75-9502-E51588BB5D9F.jpeg (653.46 KiB) Viewed 897 times
It already looks like a mini Sun, if this is what you’re aiming for?

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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by Carbon60 »

.... or maybe a version of Kirlian type photography will give you something close to what you want?
E_Discharge.jpg
E_Discharge.jpg (47.5 KiB) Viewed 893 times
https://hackaday.com/2019/11/30/simple- ... -a-breeze/

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKIGhOJ5Ew[/youtube]

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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by Averton »

From an engineering point of view, cost estimates for projects need a lot more detail than this.
It would be interesting to see what you come up with.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Stu,
I have a plasma ball. Back in the 1990s these were quite popular but are rarely seen now. I have a lava lamp too! Those were big in the 70s and 90s but too have declined now. I have heard of Kirlian photography. Looks interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirlian_photography

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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Averton wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:40 am From an engineering point of view, cost estimates for projects need a lot more detail than this.
It would be interesting to see what you come up with.
Agreed!!


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by christian viladrich »

Regarding sunspot (and granulation) simulation, I like the spectacular MHD numerical simulations by Matthias Rempel :

Image

https://link.springer.com/article/10.12942/lrsp-2011-3

Not sure a plasma torch can be of any help there.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by marktownley »

christian viladrich wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:05 pm Not sure a plasma torch can be of any help there.
Indeed!


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

A Tesla coil or Van De Graaff generator comes to mind here. Run plasma through plasma! Don’t electrocute yourself or blow something up!

A plasma ball or similar device that has electrical filaments or loops curving out and back to the surface to areas of different polarity would indeed make a good solar demonstrator. A conventional plasma ball grounds the other pole to the glass sphere.

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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

For the ball to work with loops the central emitter would have to have different polarities on the same surface without touching. Make that work and you might make money off of that invention!


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

A friend of mine has a plasma display similar to this but 300mm in size. A flat plate of blue lightning. Think Star Trek Borg here! Luminglass I think they call them.

I certainly am not trying to discourage you from using plasma torches for a simulated sunspot simulation, but it seems to me like an electric device may be easier and maybe safer. Good luck on making it work no matter how you do it!

Keep us posted!

James

P.S. Maybe you can engineer a device of your own design.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by Carbon60 »

GlobalInnovator wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:32 pm
Carbon60 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:56 am You would probably have more luck using a plasma ball lamp, modified in some way to show what you’re trying to demonstrate. These are inexpensive and readily available.

5EBD6E00-4E05-4E75-9502-E51588BB5D9F.jpeg

It already looks like a mini Sun, if this is what you’re aiming for?

Stu.
Thank you.
I really need to get some plasma ball lamps for test in magnetic field.
Not sure if the ball is air evacuated and should I wear protective glasses.
At local China markets plasma lamps are no more available.
On the internet there are some offers but plasma is low, just few strings.
Not sure if plasma lamp can be upgraded ith more wiring, electrodes to generate dense plasma.

Have to visit some nice Large plasma bulb lamp projects on Hackaday
The lamps work using high frequency alternating high voltages in an evacuated glass envelope containing low pressure gas of one type or another. The plasma stream is insensitive to magnetic fields because of the AC. The circuit would need to be modified to provide current flow in one direction only, that is, half wave rectification. This way Lorentz forces can take effect to bend the stream.

To be honest, I think many of us are perplexed as to the purpose of your proposed scheme. Are you trying to make something that ‘looks’ a bit like a sunspot, or a serious scientific experimental analogue? Are you trying to ‘replicate’ structures within the photosphere, Chromosphere, or solar corona, because they do display significantly different characteristics and ‘replicating’ them would require different approaches.

As a note of caution, messing about with high voltages, hot plasma, vacuum systems in glass and monster magnetic fields is a good way to injure yourself (or worse) if you are incompetent, or inexperienced in such situations.

Stepping back a little, if what you are looking to achieve is to simply visualise magnetic fields in and around ‘sunspots’, then there are far easier (and safer) options using magnets and ferrofluid. See, for example, https://www.instructables.com/Ferrocel ... ds-Viewer/
It all depends on what your objectives are.

Stu.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by marktownley »

Carbon60 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:08 am To be honest, I think many of us are perplexed as to the purpose of your proposed scheme. Are you trying to make something that ‘looks’ a bit like a sunspot, or a serious scientific experimental analogue? Are you trying to ‘replicate’ structures within the photosphere, Chromosphere, or solar corona, because they do display significantly different characteristics and ‘replicating’ them would require different approaches.
Totally my thoughts too...


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

GlobalInnovator wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:54 am I hope Applied Plasma Technologies, Corp. to support us with excellent high-end plasma burners for tests

NASA citizen scientist
I am curious. Who are “ us “? You are a member of a group interested in plasma science? One certainly can do more as a part of a group, that’s for sure.


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Nope. Just a serious amateur solar researcher and enthusiast. If I wasn't on SolarChat I would still be recording my observations and saving images from online sources as well as taking my own. SolarChat enables more effective learning and it's nice to share my work. Plus it's not only fun to share with others but one can learn from other's work and experiences. I have observed largely alone since 1978 but SolarChat has taught me on how rewarding participating in an astronomical forum can be. Plus I have met some nice friendly people here.

I may be chatty but I am no robot or AI software program.

James


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Re: Functional sunspot model built on the ground with high-power plasma burners in a 10 x 10 array system

Post by marktownley »

OK enough of this.

Topic is closed. The OP is reminded this is a solar astronomy forum, not plasma physics. Feel free to post solar astronomy, go to a plasma physics forum to talk plasma physics.


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