500fps kinetix cmos camera!
-
- The Sun?
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:29 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Hi Everyone,
I’m considering a dedicated camera purchase for a Lunt 102 double stack (both etalons are pressure tuned). I use a circular polarizer at the advice from other members here, and that has eliminated ghosting. Now that I have outstanding views, I’d like to capture them better than what I can do with my color cmos.
So, I’ve been looking for mono cameras with low noise, high frame rate, and good QE at 656nm. I came across the telephone kinematix cmos.
The specs are impressive, but what do you all think? (I have an inquiry out for cost.)
https://www.photometrics.com/products/k ... ly/kinetix
I’m considering a dedicated camera purchase for a Lunt 102 double stack (both etalons are pressure tuned). I use a circular polarizer at the advice from other members here, and that has eliminated ghosting. Now that I have outstanding views, I’d like to capture them better than what I can do with my color cmos.
So, I’ve been looking for mono cameras with low noise, high frame rate, and good QE at 656nm. I came across the telephone kinematix cmos.
The specs are impressive, but what do you all think? (I have an inquiry out for cost.)
https://www.photometrics.com/products/k ... ly/kinetix
- marktownley
- Librarian
- Posts: 42270
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm
- Location: Brierley Hills, UK
- Has thanked: 20424 times
- Been thanked: 10243 times
- Contact:
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Sounds great, but, for using with a rear mounted etalon at f30>, for a 4" DS Lunt you might find something with smaller pixels a bit more versatile in terms of sampling.
http://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.co.uk/
Solar images, a collection of all the most up to date live solar data on the web, imaging & processing tutorials - please take a look!
-
- The Sun?
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:29 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, that’s true, the pixel size is on the large end for the Lunt ds.marktownley wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:04 am Sounds great, but, for using with a rear mounted etalon at f30>, for a 4" DS Lunt you might find something with smaller pixels a bit more versatile in terms of sampling.
I have a quantum on the back of an apm 152 (with Baader ERF on the front and 4x powermate on the back) for close up views, but I’m considering selling it because I’m almost always using the Lunt ds now. Though, I’m interested in triple stacking with that quantum before I sell anything.
Any other ”top-choice” mono camera that comes to mind for the Lunt ds?
-
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 1668
- Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:44 pm
- Location: Germany
- Has thanked: 2977 times
- Been thanked: 2082 times
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Impressive camera on that link. I didnt find the chip being used. What price will it be (pls let us know)?
Triband C9.25
H-a: Quark Chromosphere with BF mod
WL: Antlia 500nm/ 3nm, 393 nm/ 3nm
Ca-K: homebrew (includes 2x 1.5A filters, thanks Apollo)
Player One Apollo Max + Mars MII
Barlows:
-2x Gerd Düring 2.7x
-2x TMB 1.8x
H-a: Quark Chromosphere with BF mod
WL: Antlia 500nm/ 3nm, 393 nm/ 3nm
Ca-K: homebrew (includes 2x 1.5A filters, thanks Apollo)
Player One Apollo Max + Mars MII
Barlows:
-2x Gerd Düring 2.7x
-2x TMB 1.8x
-
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 2150
- Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:46 pm
- Location: France
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2713 times
- Contact:
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
You can forget about it ;-)
At 498 fps, you have only a 200 electrons full well capacity.
https://www.photometrics.com/wp-content ... 032023.pdf
This is completely useless.
For 15000 electrons full well capacity you have 83 fps at 16 bits. So, nothing much compared to the "usual" cameras (ZWO, QHY, Player-One, etc..).
At 498 fps, you have only a 200 electrons full well capacity.
https://www.photometrics.com/wp-content ... 032023.pdf
This is completely useless.
For 15000 electrons full well capacity you have 83 fps at 16 bits. So, nothing much compared to the "usual" cameras (ZWO, QHY, Player-One, etc..).
Christian Viladrich
Co-author of "Planetary Astronomy"
http://planetary-astronomy.com/
Editor of "Solar Astronomy"
http://www.astronomiesolaire.com/
Co-author of "Planetary Astronomy"
http://planetary-astronomy.com/
Editor of "Solar Astronomy"
http://www.astronomiesolaire.com/
-
- The Sun?
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:29 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Wow! You’re right—good catch. Ok. Well, back to the drawing board. What would be your “acceptable” and your “very good” full well capacity numbers for a good Ha camera?christian viladrich wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:46 pm You can forget about it ;-)
At 498 fps, you have only a 200 electrons full well capacity.
https://www.photometrics.com/wp-content ... 032023.pdf
This is completely useless.
For 15000 electrons full well capacity you have 83 fps at 16 bits. So, nothing much compared to the "usual" cameras (ZWO, QHY, Player-One, etc..).
-
- Almost There...
- Posts: 1054
- Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:13 pm
- Location: London, England
- Has thanked: 42 times
- Been thanked: 1487 times
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
What is good about this camera is that is has a real USB 3.2 interface operating at 10 Gbps. This is definitely the way future cameras should be built. This is twice the speed of the typical USB 3.0 interface.
- MalVeauX
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 1858
- Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:58 pm
- Location: Florida
- Has thanked: 1171 times
- Been thanked: 1360 times
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
As Christian pointed out, its not good for our purpose with imaging due to its full well capacity.
Also, USB3.2 is not a good step for cameras. It too is limited and requires the motherboard support it on the PC in use. This could easily require you to buy a new PC just due to that and it too is still just limited in bandwidth and shares with others.
The best take away is the push of cameras moving to PCI express and coming with or can buy a dedicated PCIe capture card that has many times more bandwidth than USB so that we are not limited by the speeds of USB. You can add a card to most modern PC's to accommodate this need and so its more welcome to established systems just by adding a PCIe card that the camera dumps to. That makes way more sense than USB anything. Hopefully this catches on and moves forward for people in the enthusiast camp of imaging that need or want high FPS.
The other problem that is overlooked is such a system needs two significant resources; one is memory so that there's high speed memory (DDR4, DDR5) to recieve the data stream and it needs to be high capacity so it doesn't drop frames and has a place to store while it writes to the physical media. The second is the physical media needs to be very high capacity and very fast, so you're looking at 2~4TB NVMe SSD class storage and likely need several of them, possibly a RAID0 array to ensure you have enough capacity to handle the data. So expect 32~64Gb DDR4/DDR5 memory and 4~8TB of NVMe storage to handle the output of a camera with PCIe throughput potential.
Also, forget laptops for these obviously.
Very best,
Also, USB3.2 is not a good step for cameras. It too is limited and requires the motherboard support it on the PC in use. This could easily require you to buy a new PC just due to that and it too is still just limited in bandwidth and shares with others.
The best take away is the push of cameras moving to PCI express and coming with or can buy a dedicated PCIe capture card that has many times more bandwidth than USB so that we are not limited by the speeds of USB. You can add a card to most modern PC's to accommodate this need and so its more welcome to established systems just by adding a PCIe card that the camera dumps to. That makes way more sense than USB anything. Hopefully this catches on and moves forward for people in the enthusiast camp of imaging that need or want high FPS.
The other problem that is overlooked is such a system needs two significant resources; one is memory so that there's high speed memory (DDR4, DDR5) to recieve the data stream and it needs to be high capacity so it doesn't drop frames and has a place to store while it writes to the physical media. The second is the physical media needs to be very high capacity and very fast, so you're looking at 2~4TB NVMe SSD class storage and likely need several of them, possibly a RAID0 array to ensure you have enough capacity to handle the data. So expect 32~64Gb DDR4/DDR5 memory and 4~8TB of NVMe storage to handle the output of a camera with PCIe throughput potential.
Also, forget laptops for these obviously.
Very best,
-
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 1668
- Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:44 pm
- Location: Germany
- Has thanked: 2977 times
- Been thanked: 2082 times
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
MalVeauX wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 pm As Christian pointed out, its not good for our purpose with imaging due to its full well capacity.
Also, USB3.2 is not a good step for cameras. It too is limited and requires the motherboard support it on the PC in use. This could easily require you to buy a new PC just due to that and it too is still just limited in bandwidth and shares with others.
The best take away is the push of cameras moving to PCI express and coming with or can buy a dedicated PCIe capture card that has many times more bandwidth than USB so that we are not limited by the speeds of USB. You can add a card to most modern PC's to accommodate this need and so its more welcome to established systems just by adding a PCIe card that the camera dumps to. That makes way more sense than USB anything. Hopefully this catches on and moves forward for people in the enthusiast camp of imaging that need or want high FPS.
The other problem that is overlooked is such a system needs two significant resources; one is memory so that there's high speed memory (DDR4, DDR5) to recieve the data stream and it needs to be high capacity so it doesn't drop frames and has a place to store while it writes to the physical media. The second is the physical media needs to be very high capacity and very fast, so you're looking at 2~4TB NVMe SSD class storage and likely need several of them, possibly a RAID0 array to ensure you have enough capacity to handle the data. So expect 32~64Gb DDR4/DDR5 memory and 4~8TB of NVMe storage to handle the output of a camera with PCIe throughput potential.
Also, forget laptops for these obviously.
Very best,
For a step up in FPS Usb 3.2 would be just fine for quite some time. All thats needed is a not too old computer with usb3.2 support and a fast nvme ssd. You dont need big nor specially fast Ram amounts if the ssd is fast enough. Many mainboards already have that including my 2-3 year old one.
So while usb3.2 is not completely out of reach i would agree with a PCIe card you dont need to upgrade the mainboard. Still needs some sort of cable that connects with the camera. And how much additional $ would such a card be?
I think the people who go for fast fps imaging usually are not imaging with older computers, so usb3.2 + nvme drive is just straight forward.
Triband C9.25
H-a: Quark Chromosphere with BF mod
WL: Antlia 500nm/ 3nm, 393 nm/ 3nm
Ca-K: homebrew (includes 2x 1.5A filters, thanks Apollo)
Player One Apollo Max + Mars MII
Barlows:
-2x Gerd Düring 2.7x
-2x TMB 1.8x
H-a: Quark Chromosphere with BF mod
WL: Antlia 500nm/ 3nm, 393 nm/ 3nm
Ca-K: homebrew (includes 2x 1.5A filters, thanks Apollo)
Player One Apollo Max + Mars MII
Barlows:
-2x Gerd Düring 2.7x
-2x TMB 1.8x
-
- The Sun?
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:29 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Thanks, Everyone, for the excellent considerations of not just the camera itself but the imaging system as a whole to be considered. I’m still on the hunt. Turns out that camera is about $20k, which is out of my budget for this.
So, what can I get that’s better than the zwo asi174 mono? The pixels are a bit big, and the sensor size a bit small— I’d really love to get a full disk view (especially for outreach via live views) and not have to do mosaics for imaging. (Though I may end up going that route.)
I really like performance of the asi290mm I use, but it’s way too small a sensor.
(Attached image here is with the Lunt DS, and the asi290mm. It is over processed, but I’m learning a lot.)
So, what can I get that’s better than the zwo asi174 mono? The pixels are a bit big, and the sensor size a bit small— I’d really love to get a full disk view (especially for outreach via live views) and not have to do mosaics for imaging. (Though I may end up going that route.)
I really like performance of the asi290mm I use, but it’s way too small a sensor.
(Attached image here is with the Lunt DS, and the asi290mm. It is over processed, but I’m learning a lot.)
-
- Way More Fun to Share It!!
- Posts: 1668
- Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:44 pm
- Location: Germany
- Has thanked: 2977 times
- Been thanked: 2082 times
Re: 500fps kinetix cmos camera!
Better check out the Flir Blackfly S with imx425 mono chip, that could be something interesting. Well if big pixels are ok.
Triband C9.25
H-a: Quark Chromosphere with BF mod
WL: Antlia 500nm/ 3nm, 393 nm/ 3nm
Ca-K: homebrew (includes 2x 1.5A filters, thanks Apollo)
Player One Apollo Max + Mars MII
Barlows:
-2x Gerd Düring 2.7x
-2x TMB 1.8x
H-a: Quark Chromosphere with BF mod
WL: Antlia 500nm/ 3nm, 393 nm/ 3nm
Ca-K: homebrew (includes 2x 1.5A filters, thanks Apollo)
Player One Apollo Max + Mars MII
Barlows:
-2x Gerd Düring 2.7x
-2x TMB 1.8x