Intro and questions

[Brroberts-23]

ASI focus routine

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Sun white light

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I have been a visual observer for years moving into EAA. I have white light filters, and I have a quark that I don’t find works very well. So:

I have a Lunt 60 coming single stack. I also have an AT80EDT with a Baader filter. I am having great trouble with solar imaging. DSO’s seem fine for EAA, but I have no luck with solar.

Setup Badder solar filter, AT80EDT, (works fine visually) ZWO ASI 174 MM, USB 3 to ZWO ASI AIR Pro. The whole EAA thing is brand new to me.

I just get a featureless white solar disk even when there are obvious sun spots. When I try to run the focus routine I get a black screen or a white disk with a ring around it.

I have no idea how to get solar images. My goal is to be able to take the system around to schools and do lessons. Images attached I hope since this is my first post here although I have read many posts.

So how do I focus the sun and get an image with surface detail?

[marktownley]

Hi There and welcome to the forum!

No idea about the software you are using above, but there is no detail present as the disk is completely over exposed.

Mark

[robert]

Much shorter exposure time is required and then you will see sunspots, lots just now!
I think the ASIAIR live stacks on stars with long exposures of 5 or 10 or 30 etc seconds, for solar you need to record a video file (millisecond exposures at 20fps or more for several hundred frames), which it can do and would work for live viewing and then you can stack the video in autostakkert or such like to make a still image.
You need to use the manual focus buttons in ASIAIR focusing, the routine uses star diameters which are absent in a solar image.

Good luck
Robert

[Brroberts-23]

I am using an ASI Air Plus. I’m not sure how to shorten he exposure. It has a tab, and its minimum is .001 sec. I’ll do some research on that. Thanks for the tip. Any ideas on the focusing tool?

[Brroberts-23]

Not sure about the focusing issue, but I emailed ZWO to see if I can shorten the exposure time. If the menu defaults are my only choice, then should I get an ND or polarizing filter to go before the cameras?

[Brroberts-23]

Looks like the only way to shorten the exposure in the ASI Air Pro is to use video mode. I’ll play with it in a few days when we have sun again.

[Brroberts-23]

Here’s what ZWO said, I haven’t messed with it yet, but if I remember, this is for live not video:

Except for Preview Mode, you may input a customized exposure value for the camera:

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[christian viladrich]

Hello,
I am not sure what software you are using ?
I suggest you use "ASICAP" which is part of ASI Studio.
With ASICAP, you can set the exposure time to the minimum value, and also the "gain" to the minimum value.

Then, if you still have overexposed image, you should add a a neutral filter or bette a color filter (red or green).

[Brroberts-23]

I use the ASI Air app. I don’t want to drag a laptop around.

[PDB]

Well solar (or planetary) will not work with ASIAir (what I understand from the manual) It's made for deep-sky.
For solar/planetary you need high frame rate video from the camera.

If you don't want to use a pc, then maybe the ASICAP for android is a solution? From wat I see on ZWO's website it allows their USB3 cams connecting to an android device via USB "on-the-go" OTG.

Never even tried it, so don't know if it works.

Paul

[Brroberts-23]

Don’t have android. Others are using the air for solar system objects, or I wouldn’t have bought it for solar. There is even a stacking routine for solar. I have the air plus. The air is working well for dso’s, but since it’s been cloudy, I have not tried again with either the video function or ZWO’s suggestions on the sun. Once I can do that in late May, not before the 24th at the earliest, then I can see where I’m at.

[PDB]

Not easy to find a manual for the ASIAir Plus. But that one seems to have planetary mode (based on video throughput). So that should work. (No idea how, I hate these tablet, phone things)

The AsiAir Pro manual does not mention anything about video mode (maybe recent changes?)

Paul

[marktownley]

Sounds to me the moral of the story reading above is just to not use the asiair at all. Just plug camera straight into pc/laptop and image that way. That's what everyone here does.

[Brroberts-23]

I’m not going to SharpCap unless I get desperate. I have a lifetime license, but want to make EAA as fast and easy as possible. Not everyone uses a laptop. There are good results with the Air. Would SC be better, probably, but at more expense and effort. I want quick and portable for EAA. I have no interest in imaging / processing.

[rsfoto]

I’m not going to SharpCap unless I get desperate. I have a lifetime license, but want to make EAA as fast and easy as possible. Not everyone uses a laptop. There are good results with the Air. Would SC be better, probably, but at more expense and effort. I want quick and portable for EAA. I have no interest in imaging / processing.

This answer somehow confuses me ...

You want to show the Sun details in schools but quoting you...

I have no interest in imaging / processing

How will you do that ?

You need first to understand how it is possible to image the Sun and there is no way around if you do not find a way to get your exposures as low as possible, learn how to focus the Sun and at the same time for live views you need to tweak Gamma, Brightness and Contrast to get a good image for showing...

Reading your answers to the excellent tips you have got somehow makes me wonder how do you want to learn something.

This reminds me to what happens to me quite often. People ask for tips and tricks and then after a day or two or even more explaining how everything fits together ... they do whatever they want...

Sorry if this sounds harsh but there are dozens of photographers here with years of experience telling you how to do it and your last comment makes me wonder...

[rsfoto]

Don’t have android. Others are using the air for solar system objects, or I wouldn’t have bought it for solar. There is even a stacking routine for solar. I have the air plus. The air is working well for dso’s, but since it’s been cloudy, I have not tried again with either the video function or ZWO’s suggestions on the sun. Once I can do that in late May, not before the 24th at the earliest, then I can see where I’m at.

Solar system objects are all the planets but not including the Sun but it includes the Moon too...

[robert]

I think the ASIAIR live stacks on stars with long exposures of 5 or 10 or 30 etc seconds, for solar you need to record a video file (millisecond exposures at 20fps or more for several hundred frames), which it can do and would work for live viewing and then you can stack the video in autostakkert or such like to make a still image.
You need to use the manual focus buttons in ASIAIR focusing, the routine uses star diameters which are absent in a solar image.

Good luck
Robert

I think you mean video live viewing rather than EAA. EAA is usually an image stacking process to make a still image. The ASIAIR does EAA on stars etc and they called live stacking. But you need live viewing which is video mode.

I think this tells you what you need!

Good luck
Robert

[robert]

I plan to try this out because I think I have all the bits needed. ASIAIR, ZWO camera, LS60, goto mount and a tablet.

I expect to be able to get a live video by wifi onto my tablet at HD resolution. I am curious to see if that is good enough to see anything on the sun and if it would be useful for outreach.

Been cloudy, raining, windy or misty ever since I thought of it.

Robert

[Brroberts-23]

I’ll try it at the end of the month when I’m home

[robert]

It was hazy but sunny and I did have a go at this. It just about works but the way I did it gave such a poor image that I think it is not usable. I tried two colour cameras, ASI224 and ASI294 and then my PGR Ch3 monochrome on a laptop in live video mode (not imaging or recording video). I think that is the way to go as Mark said. The scope focus (using the manual buttons, not the auto routine) and the mount can be controlled by the ASIAIR and a powered USB lead run across to a laptop in the shade.

There is a real problem seeing a tablet screen in sunshine for me, and the delay of the image loading by WiFi makes focus, aligning and exposure adjustment really difficult, but I expect I could get used to it.

The main problem is the colour camera losing resolution. It is possible to use CUSTOM on the exposure and get it very short, but in Video mode the screen is only HD 1080.

I will attach some shots, but I would start planning a way to use a laptop, and possibly also try a ZWO planetary monochrome camera with the ASIAIR. It is a fabulous device for simplifying EAA on deep sky objects but not any help to me at least for the sun.

Let us know how you get on
Good Luck
Robert

The cobbled together rig

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The fastest exposure I could get in Preview mode, still image, ASI294 not in video mode

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The video mode screen 1080 HD res but very poor (dirty tablet too!)

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Live video of the sun using a monochrome planetary camera and firecapture on a laptop, very much better resolution and ease of focus etc

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Video of ASI224 at best focus and resolution I could achieve, attached as mp4

[Brroberts-23]

My mono camera is an ASI 174, but would be open to other options after I sort some stuff out. I don’t want to add more to the mix right now. I have a color 662 and color 533, but I doubt color is a good option for solar. McDonald observatory uses an 80mm scope and a Lunt LS 60 for near real time EAA presentations with a projector, but it’s indoors. Their detail is pretty good. I don’t know the cameras and software. I might check with them. I imagine, their 80mm is a longer FL than mine. The LS 60 is used as Ha and the 80 as white light. The only software I have outside the AA+, is SharpCap.

[Brroberts-23]

I did email McDonald Observatory today, so we’ll see what they say about their near real-time presentations. They use some 80mm for full disk white light, a large AstroPhysics with some research grade Daystar filter for close ups, and a single stacked Lunt 60 for full disk Ha.

[robert]

I think ASI174 is used by lots on the forum so should be good. Sharpcap is good if you end up with a laptop involved but also the ZWO software works and has a simpler screen and setup, ASICAP I think, as Christian suggested. They will all work with the advantage of no delay on the image as you adjust for tuning, focus and alignment. Also not limited to 1080 HD video , only the camera spec limits the image pixel count.
Robert

[Brroberts-23]

I’ve not looked at ZWO software outside of the AA+app. I remember SharpCap being easy when I messed with it a couple of years ago to see if I even wanted to consider EAA. I hope later this week to have a few hours to mess with video. I have to travel again in a week. Thanks

[robert]

They have copied features from sharpcap but made it look simpler with reduced options. This repels some people who like complicated things and attracts others. They will both do a good video display for your purposes in outreach and no need to image!
Robert

[Brroberts-23]

Okay, finally had a chance to try video mode with ASI Air Plus and iPad. Wind at 15 and around noon, so seeing not great. The image isn’t great, but it’s a start.

Scope AT80EDT, camera ASI174. Filter Kendrick with Baader film. Mount is AZ Mount Pro.

Focus needs work, but seeing made that hard.

I used ROI 960 in AA+ app. Gain set to 15 and exposure was (I think because I forgot to write it down) 153 micro seconds.

I’ll post a jpeg, so that’s not the best. Also the AA+ does AVI not SER.

[Brroberts-23]

I heard from McDonald Observatory. Not a lot of specifics, but they did say they used ir cut filters on both their white light and Ha scopes. Would that be helpful with the ASI 174?

[robert]

Yes, cameras respond well to IR and this adds an unfocused blur to the image.
I think you have to assess whether the 960 image is good enough for your purpose at best focus.

Good so far
Robert

[robert]

If you can get it acceptable for WL then Ha will also be ok. In my experiment I did not get there but I was using an inappropriate spec colour camera.
Robert

[Brroberts-23]

Thanks for the info Robert.

[Brroberts-23]

Today I took a 32” computer monitor out to get an idea of a working concept. I shaded it with some cardboard and sent my iPad screen to it via AppleTV. It did what I expected. The solar image from the AA+ was too small and dim for a school sized group. I have 3 options for monitors I have been considering. I’ll have to think about which way to go. The next step is a bright large display.

[Brroberts-23]

While I want to keep using the AA+ some, I messed with SharpCap 4 and my Asi662 briefly using a 2012 Asus i5 4MB, with a rotating hard drive and got 5-6 times the frame rate that I ever see from the Air+. So I am thinking I might get a mini pc even though I’d rather not. I could pair it with an inexpensive 10” on camera sunlight readable display for $300-350. It’s a lot more horsepower, and a lot less cost than a laptop of equivalent speed. That will be paired with a large sunlight readable outreach display.

[Brroberts-23]

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My mini computer for SharpCap is not here yet, but with the ASI Air Plus, my ZWO 174 camera, an Astronomik L3, a Baader solar filter from Kendrick, using my AT80EDT, I just tried a proof of concept for public solar EAA. I put my AZ Mount Pro, Apple TV, and IPad on the Air’s WiFi, and tried simple projection for school classes or public viewing. I bought a Hisense U8H TV because it looked like it would be the cheapest large screen for outdoor viewing. These are a couple of quick shots not meant to be more than a test of the concept. One is of the solar disk, and one is a shot of the screen using the iPhone. I got lots of reflections off surroundings, but it was certainly easily viewable in bright sunlight. The iPhone picture is not close to the live view.

[marktownley]

Cool!