Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Steve,
I use the web based Helioviewer. org a lot. It’s quite useful.

Keep commenting here. This is not C/N! I won’t even bother posting there even though I joined a while back.

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by steveward53 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:16 am Steve,
I use the web based Helioviewer. org a lot. It’s quite useful.

Keep commenting here. This is not C/N! I won’t even bother posting there even though I joined a while back.

James
Fear not James , I'm going nowhere ... ;)

It's just this thread I'm bowing out of , I knew deep down I was wasting my time trying to engage , I should have stuck with my initial reaction to it and stayed out of it in the first place .

Regards ,

Steve.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by christian viladrich »

steveward53 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:43 am I've actually compared the anomoly frame with the frames directly previous to it and directly following it and there's no sign either side , but as no-one knows how long these so-called filaments last that's no proof of anything just an observation.
This is a very interesting step indeed, since the conclusion is that nothing is visible on these 192 frames. I don't remember the acquisition rate of HMI.
On top of that, it something is to be demonstrated, it would be much better to do so with HMI data (unaffected by seeing, known filter transmission profile), rather than small size telescopes with no record of seeing condition.

Still, one question is pending, which is the type of processing (wavelet, unsharp mask, etc.) to be applied to increase the visibility of what we are looking after.

A good starting point would be to write down a methodology of what is to be done to check the whole thing :
- type of observation (space/ground based), telescope diameter, camera, filter, acquisition rate,
- type of processing,
- type of observing runs : coordination of serveral observers for a 15 min time slot, etc.
- and probably other stuff.

As you did, starting from the "first" observations done could be a good start too. The following information are still missing :
- "original unprocessed file" with full resolution,
- duration of acquisition,
- seeing conditions,
- processing applied,
- UHC filter used,
- HH:MM:SS of acquisition,
- heliographic coordinates of the identified areas.
...amoung arround questions.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Montana »

I've been having a look around and Mark's image taken with the Sodium Quark at 589nm is very close to Helium D3 at 587.5nm which the SHG guys have been looking at recently. See this post from Alun looking at Helium D3 when extracted from the sodium line viewtopic.php?t=41083 . Helium D3 usually shows features in reverse (dark plage) and you can see in this image he has captured a faint arc which could hint at a similar like filament feature that Mark found.

Sodium line features are upper photosphere and lower chromospheric features, so he could possibly have been seeing filament roots.

The infra-red filter of Aaron (although he doesn't state the wavelength) but Bob mentions a 850nm filter? Is one of the Calcium infra Red triplet lines 849.8nm which displays low chromosphere, however, unless ultra narrow band the filter would allow bleed through of the photosphere. So again, these arcs could be similar to stated above and be a filament root similar to what you see in ultra narrow Ca K/H in SHG images or the far wings of hydrogen alpha, but with a large proportion of photospheric bleed through.

The UHC filter is 496 and 501nm according to FLO, there doesn't seem to be a spectral line at this point so can't comment about that one. Probably just photosphere. EDIT Hydrogen Beta at 486.134 is missed off my chart!

https://solarnutcase.livejournal.com/9556.html

All very interesting to think about. Really we need the SHG guys to take an image in the Calcium triplet but this has been discussed before and is currently outside the boundaries of what is possible (yet) :)
Alexandra


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

If I remember right, Aaron was using an 850nm filter but stated they could be picked up at other wavelengths too like 540nm and CaK. I would have to go back through the posts here and on C/N to know for sure.

Helium D3 and sodium both image the photosphere/chromosphere transition region. Filament roots makes sense but shouldn’t they line up with the filaments seen in Ha?

Nice thinking, Alexandra. 😊

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by steveward53 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:55 pm If I remember right, Aaron was using an 850nm filter but stated they could be picked up at other wavelengths too like 540nm and CaK. I would have to go back through the posts here and on C/N to know for sure.

Helium D3 and sodium both image the photosphere/chromosphere transition region. Filament roots makes sense but shouldn’t they line up with the filaments seen in Ha?

Nice thinking, Alexandra. 😊

James
I'm guessing that if the filament was high enough in the chromoshere above the photosphere then the 'roots' potentially imaged on the 'surface' would not line up with the upper levels as we're looking at a three dimensional object.

And the further from the centre of the disc we view then the greater the apparent distance between the two , a bit like seeing two levels of cloud on a satellite image of Earth.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

🤔


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by steveward53 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:38 pm🤔
Picture the filament like a large thunderhead cloud reaching up through the atmosphere .


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Dennis »

Thx for the update. So if the phenomen shows up in h-beta you can try a wl-filter like the baader 5.5nm h-beta. Should be simpler then using the uhc with its different wavelengths interfering?


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Hb!! Ok you SHG users out there! You can do this!!

Welcome back Aaron!!

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by steveward53 »

One day you might post an image of sufficient size and resolution that can actually be examined , the disc you posted is a pitiful example ... :?

There are much better examples to be found right here on Solarchat ... ;)


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Montana »

You need to build an SHG Aaron, here is a link to Douglas's latest H beta disc, it will blow you away :)

viewtopic.php?t=40819

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by marktownley »

Aaron.

Any chance of the images with no colour, no post processing, just the raw 16bit stacked image. Can you attach the files rather than inserting them.

Thanks


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I think we should all examine our past images and look for these anomalies. Mark, you already had one in a sodium image from back in 2018. We could post them when we find them.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I wonder if Aaron's Anomalies can be seen visually? If so this would eliminate them as being processing artifacts completely! Seeing is believing they say! :lol:

To verify them more than one observer would need to see them, of course. And record their details in sketches or descriptions. What wavelength would be the best for visual confirmation? 540nm?


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by marktownley »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:09 pm I wonder if Aaron's Anomalies can be seen visually? If so this would eliminate them as being processing artifacts completely! Seeing is believing they say! :lol:

To verify them more than one observer would need to see them, of course. And record their details in sketches or descriptions. What wavelength would be the best for visual confirmation? 540nm?
I hate to sound like i'm giving off negative vibes here, but I find it quite compelling to believe in all these years that the sun has been studied visually nobody has seen them previouslly...


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I can’t ever remember seeing them. But some people have much better equipment than I do. Just sayin’….


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

There is always a logical explanation._StarHugger
Ditto! 👍🏻


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Going there now.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Today while I was post processing my images from today's session I noticed a small dark bow or arc just below AR13327 in the south-central part of the disc. Is this one of Aaron's Anomalies? Checking out the SDOHMI continuum 4K image I see the pore near it just to it's NE but unlike my image shows no clear bow. But however SDO does show a slight shaded place at or close to where my image shows the north end of the bow. I used my C102 and a 540nm filter for this image. Could it be a bow of darker granules?

Is it a genuine object or just an artifact of my processing? I have attached my image with the SDO image and the KSO WL image. I don't know how to arrow the feature using PhotoShop or GIMP. Sorry.

James



11_07_02_540nm_JP.jpg
11_07_02_540nm_JP.jpg (1.27 MiB) Viewed 1494 times
KSO_WLC_6-10-23.jpeg
KSO_WLC_6-10-23.jpeg (152.36 KiB) Viewed 1494 times
SDOHMIc_Greyscale4K_JP_6-10-23.jpg
SDOHMIc_Greyscale4K_JP_6-10-23.jpg (3.02 MiB) Viewed 1494 times
Last edited by DeepSolar64 on Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Dennis »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:25 am Today while I was post processing my images from today's session I noticed a small dark bow or arc just below AR13327 in the south-central part of the disc. Is this one of Aaron's Anomalies? Checking out the SDOHMI continuum 4K image I see the pore near it just to it's NE but that my image shows but no clear bow. But however SDO does show a slight shaded place at or close to where my image shows the north end of the bow. I used my C102 and a 540nm filter for this image. Could it be a bow of darker granules?

Is it a genuine object or just an artifact of my processing? I have attached my image with the SDO image and the KSO WL image. I don't know how to arrow the feature using PhotoShop or GIMP. Sorry.

James




11_07_02_540nm_JP.jpg

KSO_WLC_6-10-23.jpeg

SDOHMIc_Greyscale4K_JP_6-10-23.jpg

Thats no artefacts, i have those too, especially in K-line and CaK. Looks like alignements of granulation to me. I pointed Aaron to that but he says it is not the phenomen he is talking about.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Dennis »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:41 am It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.
Yes, but this is happening on the photosphere, not in the chromosphere. So no narrow band filter will show you this.
K-line and G-band filters though should pick it up nicely due to the contrast they provide on the granulation.
On other wl-filters you see them too, but not so pronounced. This would be my guess.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by rigel123 »

Dennis wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:50 am
DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:41 am It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.
Yes, but this is happening on the photosphere, not in the chromosphere. So no narrow band filter will show you this.
K-line and G-band filters though should pick it up nicely due to the contrast they provide on the granulation.
On other wl-filters you see them too, but not so pronounced. This would be my guess.
I tend to agree with Dennis in that it is an alignment of the granulation and the only way I can think to confirm this would be when you see something like this when imaging you switch to a high res image and capture a series to see if it is a feature that changes rapidly due to the cells evolving or if it is a long lasting phenomenon.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I took several 540nm images during yesterday’s session. It showed up only in this particular image. Does this point at an alignment of granules since they come and go so briefly? Could local magnetic fields cause this brief alignment or is it just a random phenomenon? If not granules what could it be?


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by steveward53 »

If they were filament roots then they wouldn't come and go so quickly surely ?

Even on the hi-res 4096 x 4096 HMI Continuum data they are not visible 15 minutes either side.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

steveward53 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:07 pm If they were filament roots then they wouldn't come and go so quickly surely ?

Even on the hi-res 4096 x 4096 HMI Continuum data they are not visible 15 minutes either side.
I don't think filament roots would show up at 540nm. Maybe in CaK or CaH or with a Gband filter like the 2nm bandpass one now available. But even that I doubt. Helium or Sodium would be a better bet since they show the photosphere-chromosphere transition region. This would be a good study for one with one of those filters. Mark Townley may have picked up one of these back in 2018 in sodium.

I wonder how a magnesium filter would do?

James


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Dennis »

rigel123 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:49 pm
Dennis wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:50 am
DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:41 am It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.
Yes, but this is happening on the photosphere, not in the chromosphere. So no narrow band filter will show you this.
K-line and G-band filters though should pick it up nicely due to the contrast they provide on the granulation.
On other wl-filters you see them too, but not so pronounced. This would be my guess.
I tend to agree with Dennis in that it is an alignment of the granulation and the only way I can think to confirm this would be when you see something like this when imaging you switch to a high res image and capture a series to see if it is a feature that changes rapidly due to the cells evolving or if it is a long lasting phenomenon.


What i mean looks like this in close up (image from today, AR13331, Antlia 393nm; line structure marked in red / without markings):
These are short lived structures (few minutes if at all). I assume the darker colering is due to temerature differences, but not sure.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by rigel123 »

Dennis wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:31 pm
rigel123 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:49 pm
Dennis wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:50 am

Yes, but this is happening on the photosphere, not in the chromosphere. So no narrow band filter will show you this.
K-line and G-band filters though should pick it up nicely due to the contrast they provide on the granulation.
On other wl-filters you see them too, but not so pronounced. This would be my guess.
I tend to agree with Dennis in that it is an alignment of the granulation and the only way I can think to confirm this would be when you see something like this when imaging you switch to a high res image and capture a series to see if it is a feature that changes rapidly due to the cells evolving or if it is a long lasting phenomenon.


What i mean looks like this in close up (image from today, Antlia 393nm; line structure marked in red / without markings):
That's what I was thinking. If you were zoomed out more the "lines" might be more obvious, but zoomed in it just appears as darker and lighter cells.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Of course this does not rule out filament roots as would be seen in helium or sodium.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by rigel123 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:43 pm Of course this does not rule out filament roots as would be seen in helium or sodium.
Those wavelengths would definitely cut down on the number of people looking for these structures to compare.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

rigel123 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:48 pm
DeepSolar64 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:43 pm Of course this does not rule out filament roots as would be seen in helium or sodium.
Those wavelengths would definitely cut down on the number of people looking for these structures to compare.
True that. Not many have helium or sodium filters. Or SHG units!


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by Montana »

I'm going to move this thread into the Prominence and filament identification project section for reference tomorrow, you will still be able to comment and accumulate data but I want to archive it there to find it. Just so you know where it is going :)

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Good idea, Alexandra. Thanks.

James

P.S. It was nice discussing this during the meeting too.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Aaron,
Join the fray! You got this started here. Don't stop your imaging concerning this. No one on SC is trying to discredit you, we are just teaming up to find out what this anomaly is. And even if it turns out to be aligned granules, is it by chance? , is it human pattern recognition? Or are they magnetically aligned in some way? More research is needed. And amateurs can do serious research, my friend. Alexandra suggested filaments rooted to the photosphere. Filament attachments. We really don't know.

James

P.S. I did image a shaded bow-shaped arc just below AR13327, yesterday.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Maybe Warren can catch something on his animations. He’s really good at it.

I like how you did your broadband Hb filter. That was innovative! 👍🏻


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

What does SHF stand for?


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

StarHugger wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:46 pm
DeepSolar64 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:26 pm What does SHF stand for?
StarHuggersFilter.

Its my only filter hack, so no fancy edition extensions yet..

We will make other filter cheats, not done...
Duhh… I should have known that!


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I tend to use “ AAs “ or “ Aaron’s Anomalies “. :D


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Hopefully you can take some images tomorrow to compare them to. Save SDO HMI images from time time you image with your equipment and compare them. I usually save images at or close to my session time, whether observing or imaging.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Hopefully there will be input from others.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

😊


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

True that. We need more images from ourselves and others, especially some high rez stuff. Something I am not well equipped for.

Comon folks, we have a mystery to solve, to support or debunk. This is where SolarChat can shine. The last time I was on C/N I think the topic had been locked again due to quibbling.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I hope you mean that you have retreated to here. And yes we do need a group effort to study this phenomenon thoroughly.

Keep up your studies. What is the largest solar capable scope you have? Mine is a 102mm F10 Celestron refractor.


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

StarHugger wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:52 am
DeepSolar64 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:53 am I hope you mean that you have retreated to here. And yes we do need a group effort to study this phenomenon thoroughly.

Keep up your studies. What is the largest solar capable scope you have? Mine is a 102mm F10 Celestron refractor.
I am one handed James and spend most of my time in a chair so my scopes are carried by family or are on wheels like me.

Not real open about this because I live beyond it.

I do not plan on returning to CN.


My biggest is the At80ed with my 120mm f10 in the shed because we cannot manage it, the homebrew filter is dark so if some one has an f6 120mm and can do high res fd work that would be really nice to see.

I will remain focused on animations and raw individually processed full resolution images played in sequence when above average seeing allows.

After realizing the morphologies today I have become aware the evolution of morphology "event" from one bow to two and from two to three would be quite the animation captured.


This I now predict could be a driver for particepation and a heck of a prize for the successing imager.


How do the bows become joined, intensify and evolve, this will all be interesting to see....


I understand. The small Astro-Tech refractors are easily managed and therefore perfect for you.

Is your 120mm F10 an older AT achromat?


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Yeah, sell some old gear to buy some new gear. Clean that 120mm refractor up. It should sell, even if it's just the OTA as long as the lens coatings aren't too badly damaged by the mold.

Goodnight Aaron. It's bedtime for me. Maybe Titus is asleep nearby to you. Lily will be on my bed shortly. Purring and then asleep.

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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by steveward53 »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:15 am True that. We need more images from ourselves and others, especially some high rez stuff. Something I am not well equipped for.

Comon folks, we have a mystery to solve, to support or debunk. This is where SolarChat can shine. The last time I was on C/N I think the topic had been locked again due to quibbling.
The topic was locked after the true identity/nature of a certain , yet again incognito , individual/antagonist was revealed. (who takes pride in being banned from every site he joins and is banned from here for numerous historical reasons)


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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

steveward53 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:59 am
DeepSolar64 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:15 am True that. We need more images from ourselves and others, especially some high rez stuff. Something I am not well equipped for.

Comon folks, we have a mystery to solve, to support or debunk. This is where SolarChat can shine. The last time I was on C/N I think the topic had been locked again due to quibbling.
The topic was locked after the true identity/nature of a certain , yet again incognito , individual/antagonist was revealed. (who takes pride in being banned from every site he joins and is banned from here for numerous historical reasons)

Doesn’t surprise me.


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DeepSolar64
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I understand...

Check out Christian's recent post. He's found a mysterious feature. I am not saying it's linked to yours but it's just as mysterious.

viewtopic.php?f=4&p=389860#p389860


Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces

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DeepSolar64
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Aaron,
You might use the SDO HMImagnetogram PFSS images to see if your arc anomalies line up to a magnetic field line. These images show both the magnetic field lines and polarity of the Sun's electromagnetic features.

It's just an idea.

James


SDOHMImag_PFSS_6-15-23.JPG
SDOHMImag_PFSS_6-15-23.JPG (284.52 KiB) Viewed 1385 times


Lunt 8x32 SUNoculars
Orion 70mm Solar Telescope
Celestron AstroMaster Alt/Az Mount
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
Meade Coronado SolarMax II 90 DS
Meade Coronado AZS Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
Celestron NexStar 102GT with Altair solar wedge
Losmandy AZ8 Alt/Az Mount
Sky-Watcher AZGTI Alt-Az GoTo mount
Cameras: ZWO ASI178MM, PGR Grasshopper, PGR Flea
Lunt, Coronado, TeleVue, Orion and Meade eyepieces

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