Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Nice disk!
I think you have processing / stacking artifacts rather than filaments. Do they correspond with the Ha view?
I think you have processing / stacking artifacts rather than filaments. Do they correspond with the Ha view?
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Hmm...
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Hopefully someone here will have them.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Aaron,
I'll see what I can find. It looks like something one might see on an SDO HMI dopplergram.
https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/img/la ... 6_HMID.jpg
James
P.S. The magnetic field of an active region can easily be seen in the chromosphere surrounding large spot groups. It curves and distorts the plasma in much the same way a magnet arranges iron filings along it's field lines. This is easily seen in Ha with even a scope of moderate aperture. It's pretty obvious in Ha, even visually in my Coronado 90. It often makes the spicules look like grass in a wind-blown field!
Could this be seen in IR? Would it look similar in some way to it's Ha view? I need more experience here.
I'll see what I can find. It looks like something one might see on an SDO HMI dopplergram.
https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/img/la ... 6_HMID.jpg
James
P.S. The magnetic field of an active region can easily be seen in the chromosphere surrounding large spot groups. It curves and distorts the plasma in much the same way a magnet arranges iron filings along it's field lines. This is easily seen in Ha with even a scope of moderate aperture. It's pretty obvious in Ha, even visually in my Coronado 90. It often makes the spicules look like grass in a wind-blown field!
Could this be seen in IR? Would it look similar in some way to it's Ha view? I need more experience here.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Aaron,
Sure. Feel free to PM them to me. The more I have to go on the more I may be able to help you in your quest.
James.
Sure. Feel free to PM them to me. The more I have to go on the more I may be able to help you in your quest.
James.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Aaron,
Does any of these anomalies line up with disturbances seen in Ha near active regions?
James
Does any of these anomalies line up with disturbances seen in Ha near active regions?
James
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I just wish I had an imaging filter that would image a wavelength these would show up. They don’t seem to show up in 430, 540 and 656nm.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I usually use an UV/IR cut or a 430nm or 540nm on the camera’s nosepiece.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I would agree.I think you have processing / stacking artifacts rather than filaments.
In 50 years of solar observing I have never seen anything resembling these curved structures in continuum.
I can if I choose to detect something like them when imaging.
Do I have the inclination to state these are some new discovery or heretofore unobserved magnetic activity? No. My low resolution images through a 100 mm refractor at 540 nm where telescopes are best corrected for spherochromatic aberration and resolution is better than at longer IR wavelengths and pretty not bad, but nowhere near the resolution it would take to make such a declaration. Second, I would like to have some sort of cogent astrophysics-based explanation for such a structure - and so far as I can tell there is none. There's just speculation and some pretty off-the-wall theories.
Additionally, I have not seen any analogous filamentary features in high-resolution images taken by professional solar observatories, or expert amateurs like Christian Viladrich:
This especially applies to the images posted earlier using a smaller aperture and in the IR were resolution is rendered lower than in continuum, and the images in the 100 x 100 pixel range. If you enlarge them here's what you get:
Seeing a structure here reminds me of the Face on Mars situation:
The similar thread on Cloudy Nights went a little off the rails, and also veered into references to the Sun being composed of mostly Iron.
An argument was made referring to the corona emission lines and photospheric absorption lines being dominated by those of iron, and hence the label of "ferrits" being applied to the alleged iron-related magnetic features. An alignment of such an alleged "ferrit" feature (arrowed) in nearly simultaneous low resolution images from the SDO in continuum and highly ionized iron were also put forth as proof of their reality:
However, when overlapped, there is NO alignment whatsoever.
So if anyone is truly serious about pursuing this line of inquiry, I'd advise much larger apertures capable of arcsec resolution or better before concluding the alleged features are actual phenomena and not imaging artifacts, wishful thinking "connecting the dots," etc.
Bob
Last edited by Bob Yoesle on Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Aaron, Bob, All.
This is the way the scientific method works. Someone proposes a theory or hypothesis and then the data is collected, analyzed and then one is to see if the data matches the theory or idea. The quest here was to find out if what was being seen on Aaron's and others images is supported from other's data. Whether professional data or the data of other amateurs, especially like those of Christian. This may indeed be processing noise or artifacts. I had wondered that myself but I wanted to see if data from other sources would confirm or disprove Aaron's findings. That's science!
Aaron,
I appreciate your efforts to root this out. To prove or disprove it. I am prepared to help you in your search.
Bob,
Your critique is also a plausible one. You have presented strong counter-evidence. Both sides are important to finding the true answer.
James
This is the way the scientific method works. Someone proposes a theory or hypothesis and then the data is collected, analyzed and then one is to see if the data matches the theory or idea. The quest here was to find out if what was being seen on Aaron's and others images is supported from other's data. Whether professional data or the data of other amateurs, especially like those of Christian. This may indeed be processing noise or artifacts. I had wondered that myself but I wanted to see if data from other sources would confirm or disprove Aaron's findings. That's science!
Aaron,
I appreciate your efforts to root this out. To prove or disprove it. I am prepared to help you in your search.
Bob,
Your critique is also a plausible one. You have presented strong counter-evidence. Both sides are important to finding the true answer.
James
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Just collect more data / images, and finetune the method. Best also to access some larger apertures to improve data quality.
The scientific world is cruel (for a reason) and results are usually only published, once phenomen are confirmed with other equipment etc.
Apart of that I find every kind of investigation of the sun interesting and useful, curiosity is indeed often a catalyst for new findings.
Thx for sharing.
The scientific world is cruel (for a reason) and results are usually only published, once phenomen are confirmed with other equipment etc.
Apart of that I find every kind of investigation of the sun interesting and useful, curiosity is indeed often a catalyst for new findings.
Thx for sharing.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Be happy if others prove you correct and be grateful if someone proves you wrong. All in the name of science. One may be disappointed and that is understandable but never mad at the person(s) with the opposing data.
Well said!!
James
Curiosity is indeed often a catalyst for new findings._Dennis
Well said!!
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm all for curiosity and skeptical inquiry.
However, here there is no theory, and just one persons observations. Arron's opening statement is not in line with skeptical inquiry or the scientific method:
The essence of the scientific method is to be critical of one's own findings and open to questioning. You try and rule out every other possibility before declaring something is "absolute and without question." And with most things, few if any are absolute and without question.
If the evidence is there and survives critical inquiry and confirmation by others - great. I will look forward to this.
However, declaring something to be true without confirmation with observable valid and reliable data by others doesn't make it so. And it is not science. That only happens in religion and politics.
Best wishes to all,
Bob
However, here there is no theory, and just one persons observations. Arron's opening statement is not in line with skeptical inquiry or the scientific method:
Exactly how was it determined the imaged features (at very very low resolution) are not artifacts? After all, imaging similar features in different locations and differing times using the same methods and materials does not rule out the possibility of artifacts.I have discovered these loop or bow like structures and indeed they are no artifact, imho this is absolute and without question. Emphasis added.
The essence of the scientific method is to be critical of one's own findings and open to questioning. You try and rule out every other possibility before declaring something is "absolute and without question." And with most things, few if any are absolute and without question.
If the evidence is there and survives critical inquiry and confirmation by others - great. I will look forward to this.
However, declaring something to be true without confirmation with observable valid and reliable data by others doesn't make it so. And it is not science. That only happens in religion and politics.
Best wishes to all,
Bob
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Bob,
I know you are not trying to be argumentative. The idea here would be to prove or disprove Aaron and Apollos observations based on other data. And I agree that they should be double-checking and doing their own comparisons again and again. And I agree that higher resolution images should tell the tale!
I love the Sagan image. So true!!
James
P.S. The sad part is that " StarHugger ", Aaron will probably leave the group because of this. That I do not understand. I really enjoyed his input.
I know you are not trying to be argumentative. The idea here would be to prove or disprove Aaron and Apollos observations based on other data. And I agree that they should be double-checking and doing their own comparisons again and again. And I agree that higher resolution images should tell the tale!
I love the Sagan image. So true!!
James
P.S. The sad part is that " StarHugger ", Aaron will probably leave the group because of this. That I do not understand. I really enjoyed his input.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
All,
I'll say this and leave it be. I read the protracted locked " off the rails " thread on Cloudy Nights concerning Aaron's topic. I left it flabbergasted. I certainly enjoyed Aaron's presence here on SolarChat but realize now that he could not handle being criticised or cross-referenced. I have always encouraged others ideas and opinions concerning my observations and imaging here on SolarChat. One learns and grows that way. While I did see a lot of frustration on the C/N post I did not see anyone personally trying to attack Aaron. The Mods there let it go too far. Here it would have not made it past the second page. At best.
You handled it well, Mr. Ward. And Bob, we would get along... :-)
Still, I hate to see Aaron leave for such a silly reason.
Ok. It ends with me now. At least on my part. Unless someone stimulates me.
In the name of science...
James
P.S. And there's probably a reason why Apollo has been banned on so many forums. This one being one of them!
I'll say this and leave it be. I read the protracted locked " off the rails " thread on Cloudy Nights concerning Aaron's topic. I left it flabbergasted. I certainly enjoyed Aaron's presence here on SolarChat but realize now that he could not handle being criticised or cross-referenced. I have always encouraged others ideas and opinions concerning my observations and imaging here on SolarChat. One learns and grows that way. While I did see a lot of frustration on the C/N post I did not see anyone personally trying to attack Aaron. The Mods there let it go too far. Here it would have not made it past the second page. At best.
You handled it well, Mr. Ward. And Bob, we would get along... :-)
Still, I hate to see Aaron leave for such a silly reason.
Ok. It ends with me now. At least on my part. Unless someone stimulates me.
In the name of science...
James
P.S. And there's probably a reason why Apollo has been banned on so many forums. This one being one of them!
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
That's very sad to hear James I suggested setting up a topic in the experimental part of the forum, the 'prominence and filament classification project' for unknown features. This way all the data could be collected in one place. Once collected and evaluated and peer reviewed it could have been published in the BAA The Journal. It is an unknown filament type feature. This is exactly what we set up this section for (if I could ever get myself organised to organise it).
I also found a similar looking feature found by Mark Townley in 2018 in the Sodium line which could be of interest to this thread viewtopic.php?p=220912&hilit=sodium#p220912
It is a great pity that Aaron isn't going to move this forward, it would have been great in the filament classification project
Alexandra
I also found a similar looking feature found by Mark Townley in 2018 in the Sodium line which could be of interest to this thread viewtopic.php?p=220912&hilit=sodium#p220912
It is a great pity that Aaron isn't going to move this forward, it would have been great in the filament classification project
Alexandra
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Alexandra,
It was I who suggested him to PM you. You have a considerable interest in the scientific study of the Sun. I also volunteered to help him either verify what he was seeing or to see if it was something else, like noise or artifacts. Though I had my doubts I never wrote it off as being noise, etc. That’s where other data and the scientific method comes in. To verify or falsify. He was just unwilling to accept ideas and results other than his own and should thoroughly put to the test his own data. He had help. Us. And he chose to bail. Such a shame.
Anyway. Back to normal.
James
It was I who suggested him to PM you. You have a considerable interest in the scientific study of the Sun. I also volunteered to help him either verify what he was seeing or to see if it was something else, like noise or artifacts. Though I had my doubts I never wrote it off as being noise, etc. That’s where other data and the scientific method comes in. To verify or falsify. He was just unwilling to accept ideas and results other than his own and should thoroughly put to the test his own data. He had help. Us. And he chose to bail. Such a shame.
Anyway. Back to normal.
James
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Hi James and Alexandra,
Unfortunately, Aaron's methodology and equipment was not ideal and suspect for making such sweeping claims - a 70 mm telescope used at 850 nm has at best a resolution of 3 arcsec.
This would seem to be the ideal study for Solar Chat participants to put their telescopes to use and attempt to determine if these features are real or artifacts. If they are real, then they can be substantiated at higher resolutions by engaging the professionals based on the reliable and valid data that a group of amateur observers has presented.
My suggestion would be a properly designed study using a standardized methodology:
Since solar granulation averages about 1 arcsec, I would suggest that anyone with a telescope of 150 mm or larger to employ a high-quality white light filter and a Baader 540 nm Continuum filter (best correction of most telescopes) to image the Sun in high resolution at the same UTC +/- 5 minutes. Since it is now near the Summer Solstice we in the Northern Hemisphere have very long days, and imaging 4 solar quadrants in high resolution continuum in the early morning in the States and the late afternoon in the Europe and elsewhere would seem practical using a Continuum filter for suppression of atmospheric dispersion. It would be important to ensure correctly oriented images, and good data recording of the atmospheric seeing conditions, etc. Alternatively, two groups could be collecting data at distinct best times for their respective general locations at the same UTC +/- 5 minutes.
Visual observations can be made using the standard solar observation template(s):
Alternatively, you could directly enlist the BAA and/or AAVSO/AL solar sections in this endeavor. This way if a suspect feature identically appears in more than one persons images or observations, then you have good evidence that a feature is real and not instrumental or other artifact.
Best wishes,
Bob
Unfortunately, Aaron's methodology and equipment was not ideal and suspect for making such sweeping claims - a 70 mm telescope used at 850 nm has at best a resolution of 3 arcsec.
Great idea! This represents an opportunity. There is an upcoming Solar Chat Monthly meetup on June 11 at 1800 UTC.I suggested setting up a topic in the experimental part of the forum, the 'prominence and filament classification project' for unknown features. This way all the data could be collected in one place. Once collected and evaluated and peer reviewed it could have been published in the BAA The Journal. It is an unknown filament type feature. This is exactly what we set up this section for...
This would seem to be the ideal study for Solar Chat participants to put their telescopes to use and attempt to determine if these features are real or artifacts. If they are real, then they can be substantiated at higher resolutions by engaging the professionals based on the reliable and valid data that a group of amateur observers has presented.
My suggestion would be a properly designed study using a standardized methodology:
Since solar granulation averages about 1 arcsec, I would suggest that anyone with a telescope of 150 mm or larger to employ a high-quality white light filter and a Baader 540 nm Continuum filter (best correction of most telescopes) to image the Sun in high resolution at the same UTC +/- 5 minutes. Since it is now near the Summer Solstice we in the Northern Hemisphere have very long days, and imaging 4 solar quadrants in high resolution continuum in the early morning in the States and the late afternoon in the Europe and elsewhere would seem practical using a Continuum filter for suppression of atmospheric dispersion. It would be important to ensure correctly oriented images, and good data recording of the atmospheric seeing conditions, etc. Alternatively, two groups could be collecting data at distinct best times for their respective general locations at the same UTC +/- 5 minutes.
Visual observations can be made using the standard solar observation template(s):
Alternatively, you could directly enlist the BAA and/or AAVSO/AL solar sections in this endeavor. This way if a suspect feature identically appears in more than one persons images or observations, then you have good evidence that a feature is real and not instrumental or other artifact.
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by Bob Yoesle on Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Wonderful idea Bob!! This will be best left up to those with scopes bigger than what I have and with better imaging skills and equipment. I also like Alexandra’s idea of creating a forum section on such topics.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Good idea indeed Bob , I've been watching quietly from the sidelines , but I have one thought on the method you suggest that I need to raise.
Don't forget however that the OP as I recall is using a colour camera , a UHC filter and a long pass IR filter at around 850nm.
So anyone producing hi-res images , with their 150mm 'scopes , mono cameras and 540nm Continuum filters will not be comparing apples to apples so's to speak , and any data collected showing no evidence will no doubt be summarily dismissed by the OPs as is their nature.
Regards,
Steve.
Don't forget however that the OP as I recall is using a colour camera , a UHC filter and a long pass IR filter at around 850nm.
So anyone producing hi-res images , with their 150mm 'scopes , mono cameras and 540nm Continuum filters will not be comparing apples to apples so's to speak , and any data collected showing no evidence will no doubt be summarily dismissed by the OPs as is their nature.
Regards,
Steve.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
The problem with UHC filters is that the transmission profile goes up and down depending on the actual model/brand. So, we would need what was the model actually used.steveward53 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:03 pm
Don't forget however that the OP as I recall is using a colour camera , a UHC filter and a long pass IR filter at around 850nm.
So anyone producing hi-res images , with their 150mm 'scopes , mono cameras and 540nm Continuum filters will not be comparing apples to apples so's to speak , and any data collected showing no evidence will no doubt be summarily dismissed by the OPs as is their nature.
Regards,
Steve.
A color camera has also a "sensitivity" profile going up and down.
On top of that, the layer of photosphere sampled depends on the wavelength. So using an UHC filter and a color filter means we don't know what we are looking at.
As suggested by Bob, a BW sensor and 540 nm filter is largely preferable.
If "something" really exists at some level of the photosphere, if would be very surprising if it would be seen only with an UHC filter (mixing several heights of the photosphere) and not with a narrow band filter (sampling only one single height).
It is also probably better to have a continiuous flow of acquisition (say one video every 30 s during 15 min) rather than a single video. If "something" really exists is has some kind of life duration and evolution pattern
Just my two cents ...
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
With the increasing availability of Gband filters, I think those would be useful too. I don’t think many of us have an 850nm long pass filter.
James.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
[/quote]
The problem with UHC filters is that the transmission profile goes up and down depending on the actual model/brand. So, we would need what was the model actually used.
A color camera has also a "sensitivity" profile going up and down.
On top of that, the layer of photosphere sampled depends on the wavelength. So using an UHC filter and a color filter means we don't know what we are looking at.
As suggested by Bob, a BW sensor and 540 nm filter is largely preferable.
If "something" really exists at some level of the photosphere, if would be very surprising if it would be seen only with an UHC filter (mixing several heights of the photosphere) and not with a narrow band filter (sampling only one single height).
It is also probably better to have a continiuous flow of acquisition (say one video every 30 s during 15 min) rather than a single video. If "something" really exists is has some kind of life duration and evolution pattern
Just my two cents ...
[/quote]
I understand that Christian , I was just trying to head off a potential arguement that could arise by everyone else using a different method to that which these 'discoveries' were made in ...
The subject has been brought up over on CN again by the other protagonist and I have put my most polite hat on and started a conversation , not sure where it will lead but here's hoping toys stay in pram this time with no tantrums.
The problem with UHC filters is that the transmission profile goes up and down depending on the actual model/brand. So, we would need what was the model actually used.
A color camera has also a "sensitivity" profile going up and down.
On top of that, the layer of photosphere sampled depends on the wavelength. So using an UHC filter and a color filter means we don't know what we are looking at.
As suggested by Bob, a BW sensor and 540 nm filter is largely preferable.
If "something" really exists at some level of the photosphere, if would be very surprising if it would be seen only with an UHC filter (mixing several heights of the photosphere) and not with a narrow band filter (sampling only one single height).
It is also probably better to have a continiuous flow of acquisition (say one video every 30 s during 15 min) rather than a single video. If "something" really exists is has some kind of life duration and evolution pattern
Just my two cents ...
[/quote]
I understand that Christian , I was just trying to head off a potential arguement that could arise by everyone else using a different method to that which these 'discoveries' were made in ...
The subject has been brought up over on CN again by the other protagonist and I have put my most polite hat on and started a conversation , not sure where it will lead but here's hoping toys stay in pram this time with no tantrums.
Steve.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Here's a 'movie' I've just slung together using all 192 frames of NASA/SDO HMI Continuum data from the 1st June when the other anomaly was 'spotted'.
I've actually compared the anomoly frame with the frames directly previous to it and directly following it and there's no sign either side , but as no-one knows how long these so-called filaments last that's no proof of anything just an observation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm_DBSVTd14
For future reference this will be easier done by anyone who chooses to do so using the JHelioviewer site , that uses any NASA/SDO wavelengths you choose ... https://www.jhelioviewer.org/
And what will probably be useful here is that you can combine different wavelengths at varying opacities in the same animation making direct comparisons all the more easy.
I've actually compared the anomoly frame with the frames directly previous to it and directly following it and there's no sign either side , but as no-one knows how long these so-called filaments last that's no proof of anything just an observation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm_DBSVTd14
For future reference this will be easier done by anyone who chooses to do so using the JHelioviewer site , that uses any NASA/SDO wavelengths you choose ... https://www.jhelioviewer.org/
And what will probably be useful here is that you can combine different wavelengths at varying opacities in the same animation making direct comparisons all the more easy.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Well my attempts to elicit some sort of sensible conversation on the subject over on CN was a thorough waste of time .
The response was as expected another short rambling affair starting with some UFO conspiracy BS and ending with more AL trumpet blowing .
Well I did try , but I shall now bow out of this thread and leave you all to it , sorry about that.
Steve.
The response was as expected another short rambling affair starting with some UFO conspiracy BS and ending with more AL trumpet blowing .
Well I did try , but I shall now bow out of this thread and leave you all to it , sorry about that.
Steve.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Steve,
I use the web based Helioviewer. org a lot. It’s quite useful.
Keep commenting here. This is not C/N! I won’t even bother posting there even though I joined a while back.
James
I use the web based Helioviewer. org a lot. It’s quite useful.
Keep commenting here. This is not C/N! I won’t even bother posting there even though I joined a while back.
James
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Fear not James , I'm going nowhere ...DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:16 am Steve,
I use the web based Helioviewer. org a lot. It’s quite useful.
Keep commenting here. This is not C/N! I won’t even bother posting there even though I joined a while back.
James
It's just this thread I'm bowing out of , I knew deep down I was wasting my time trying to engage , I should have stuck with my initial reaction to it and stayed out of it in the first place .
Regards ,
Steve.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
This is a very interesting step indeed, since the conclusion is that nothing is visible on these 192 frames. I don't remember the acquisition rate of HMI.steveward53 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:43 am I've actually compared the anomoly frame with the frames directly previous to it and directly following it and there's no sign either side , but as no-one knows how long these so-called filaments last that's no proof of anything just an observation.
On top of that, it something is to be demonstrated, it would be much better to do so with HMI data (unaffected by seeing, known filter transmission profile), rather than small size telescopes with no record of seeing condition.
Still, one question is pending, which is the type of processing (wavelet, unsharp mask, etc.) to be applied to increase the visibility of what we are looking after.
A good starting point would be to write down a methodology of what is to be done to check the whole thing :
- type of observation (space/ground based), telescope diameter, camera, filter, acquisition rate,
- type of processing,
- type of observing runs : coordination of serveral observers for a 15 min time slot, etc.
- and probably other stuff.
As you did, starting from the "first" observations done could be a good start too. The following information are still missing :
- "original unprocessed file" with full resolution,
- duration of acquisition,
- seeing conditions,
- processing applied,
- UHC filter used,
- HH:MM:SS of acquisition,
- heliographic coordinates of the identified areas.
...amoung arround questions.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I've been having a look around and Mark's image taken with the Sodium Quark at 589nm is very close to Helium D3 at 587.5nm which the SHG guys have been looking at recently. See this post from Alun looking at Helium D3 when extracted from the sodium line viewtopic.php?t=41083 . Helium D3 usually shows features in reverse (dark plage) and you can see in this image he has captured a faint arc which could hint at a similar like filament feature that Mark found.
Sodium line features are upper photosphere and lower chromospheric features, so he could possibly have been seeing filament roots.
The infra-red filter of Aaron (although he doesn't state the wavelength) but Bob mentions a 850nm filter? Is one of the Calcium infra Red triplet lines 849.8nm which displays low chromosphere, however, unless ultra narrow band the filter would allow bleed through of the photosphere. So again, these arcs could be similar to stated above and be a filament root similar to what you see in ultra narrow Ca K/H in SHG images or the far wings of hydrogen alpha, but with a large proportion of photospheric bleed through.
The UHC filter is 496 and 501nm according to FLO, there doesn't seem to be a spectral line at this point so can't comment about that one. Probably just photosphere. EDIT Hydrogen Beta at 486.134 is missed off my chart!
https://solarnutcase.livejournal.com/9556.html
All very interesting to think about. Really we need the SHG guys to take an image in the Calcium triplet but this has been discussed before and is currently outside the boundaries of what is possible (yet)
Alexandra
Sodium line features are upper photosphere and lower chromospheric features, so he could possibly have been seeing filament roots.
The infra-red filter of Aaron (although he doesn't state the wavelength) but Bob mentions a 850nm filter? Is one of the Calcium infra Red triplet lines 849.8nm which displays low chromosphere, however, unless ultra narrow band the filter would allow bleed through of the photosphere. So again, these arcs could be similar to stated above and be a filament root similar to what you see in ultra narrow Ca K/H in SHG images or the far wings of hydrogen alpha, but with a large proportion of photospheric bleed through.
The UHC filter is 496 and 501nm according to FLO, there doesn't seem to be a spectral line at this point so can't comment about that one. Probably just photosphere. EDIT Hydrogen Beta at 486.134 is missed off my chart!
https://solarnutcase.livejournal.com/9556.html
All very interesting to think about. Really we need the SHG guys to take an image in the Calcium triplet but this has been discussed before and is currently outside the boundaries of what is possible (yet)
Alexandra
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
If I remember right, Aaron was using an 850nm filter but stated they could be picked up at other wavelengths too like 540nm and CaK. I would have to go back through the posts here and on C/N to know for sure.
Helium D3 and sodium both image the photosphere/chromosphere transition region. Filament roots makes sense but shouldn’t they line up with the filaments seen in Ha?
Nice thinking, Alexandra.
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Helium D3 and sodium both image the photosphere/chromosphere transition region. Filament roots makes sense but shouldn’t they line up with the filaments seen in Ha?
Nice thinking, Alexandra.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I'm guessing that if the filament was high enough in the chromoshere above the photosphere then the 'roots' potentially imaged on the 'surface' would not line up with the upper levels as we're looking at a three dimensional object.DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:55 pm If I remember right, Aaron was using an 850nm filter but stated they could be picked up at other wavelengths too like 540nm and CaK. I would have to go back through the posts here and on C/N to know for sure.
Helium D3 and sodium both image the photosphere/chromosphere transition region. Filament roots makes sense but shouldn’t they line up with the filaments seen in Ha?
Nice thinking, Alexandra.
James
And the further from the centre of the disc we view then the greater the apparent distance between the two , a bit like seeing two levels of cloud on a satellite image of Earth.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Picture the filament like a large thunderhead cloud reaching up through the atmosphere .
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Thx for the update. So if the phenomen shows up in h-beta you can try a wl-filter like the baader 5.5nm h-beta. Should be simpler then using the uhc with its different wavelengths interfering?
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Hb!! Ok you SHG users out there! You can do this!!
Welcome back Aaron!!
James
Welcome back Aaron!!
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
One day you might post an image of sufficient size and resolution that can actually be examined , the disc you posted is a pitiful example ...
There are much better examples to be found right here on Solarchat ...
There are much better examples to be found right here on Solarchat ...
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
You need to build an SHG Aaron, here is a link to Douglas's latest H beta disc, it will blow you away
viewtopic.php?t=40819
Alexandra
viewtopic.php?t=40819
Alexandra
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Aaron.
Any chance of the images with no colour, no post processing, just the raw 16bit stacked image. Can you attach the files rather than inserting them.
Thanks
Any chance of the images with no colour, no post processing, just the raw 16bit stacked image. Can you attach the files rather than inserting them.
Thanks
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I think we should all examine our past images and look for these anomalies. Mark, you already had one in a sodium image from back in 2018. We could post them when we find them.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I wonder if Aaron's Anomalies can be seen visually? If so this would eliminate them as being processing artifacts completely! Seeing is believing they say!
To verify them more than one observer would need to see them, of course. And record their details in sketches or descriptions. What wavelength would be the best for visual confirmation? 540nm?
To verify them more than one observer would need to see them, of course. And record their details in sketches or descriptions. What wavelength would be the best for visual confirmation? 540nm?
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I hate to sound like i'm giving off negative vibes here, but I find it quite compelling to believe in all these years that the sun has been studied visually nobody has seen them previouslly...DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:09 pm I wonder if Aaron's Anomalies can be seen visually? If so this would eliminate them as being processing artifacts completely! Seeing is believing they say!
To verify them more than one observer would need to see them, of course. And record their details in sketches or descriptions. What wavelength would be the best for visual confirmation? 540nm?
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I can’t ever remember seeing them. But some people have much better equipment than I do. Just sayin’….
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Ditto!There is always a logical explanation._StarHugger
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Going there now.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Today while I was post processing my images from today's session I noticed a small dark bow or arc just below AR13327 in the south-central part of the disc. Is this one of Aaron's Anomalies? Checking out the SDOHMI continuum 4K image I see the pore near it just to it's NE but unlike my image shows no clear bow. But however SDO does show a slight shaded place at or close to where my image shows the north end of the bow. I used my C102 and a 540nm filter for this image. Could it be a bow of darker granules?
Is it a genuine object or just an artifact of my processing? I have attached my image with the SDO image and the KSO WL image. I don't know how to arrow the feature using PhotoShop or GIMP. Sorry.
James
Is it a genuine object or just an artifact of my processing? I have attached my image with the SDO image and the KSO WL image. I don't know how to arrow the feature using PhotoShop or GIMP. Sorry.
James
Last edited by DeepSolar64 on Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:25 am Today while I was post processing my images from today's session I noticed a small dark bow or arc just below AR13327 in the south-central part of the disc. Is this one of Aaron's Anomalies? Checking out the SDOHMI continuum 4K image I see the pore near it just to it's NE but that my image shows but no clear bow. But however SDO does show a slight shaded place at or close to where my image shows the north end of the bow. I used my C102 and a 540nm filter for this image. Could it be a bow of darker granules?
Is it a genuine object or just an artifact of my processing? I have attached my image with the SDO image and the KSO WL image. I don't know how to arrow the feature using PhotoShop or GIMP. Sorry.
James
11_07_02_540nm_JP.jpg
KSO_WLC_6-10-23.jpeg
SDOHMIc_Greyscale4K_JP_6-10-23.jpg
Thats no artefacts, i have those too, especially in K-line and CaK. Looks like alignements of granulation to me. I pointed Aaron to that but he says it is not the phenomen he is talking about.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
Yes, but this is happening on the photosphere, not in the chromosphere. So no narrow band filter will show you this.DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:41 am It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.
K-line and G-band filters though should pick it up nicely due to the contrast they provide on the granulation.
On other wl-filters you see them too, but not so pronounced. This would be my guess.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I tend to agree with Dennis in that it is an alignment of the granulation and the only way I can think to confirm this would be when you see something like this when imaging you switch to a high res image and capture a series to see if it is a feature that changes rapidly due to the cells evolving or if it is a long lasting phenomenon.Dennis wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:50 amYes, but this is happening on the photosphere, not in the chromosphere. So no narrow band filter will show you this.DeepSolar64 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:41 am It's nice to hear it's something. It points to at least a genuine phenomenon.
K-line and G-band filters though should pick it up nicely due to the contrast they provide on the granulation.
On other wl-filters you see them too, but not so pronounced. This would be my guess.
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Re: Filaments in IR? or What? 5 | 25 | 23
I took several 540nm images during yesterday’s session. It showed up only in this particular image. Does this point at an alignment of granules since they come and go so briefly? Could local magnetic fields cause this brief alignment or is it just a random phenomenon? If not granules what could it be?
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Meade Coronado SolarMax II 60 DS
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Astro-Tech AT72EDII with Altair solar wedge
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